Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[King of Winters]

Unless they were following orders to do so. >.>

But even so, Rhaegar, the person who ordered them to stand at ToJ, was dead, they could have gone after that. They had no other purpose than to protect their now rightful king.

[Turin Turambar]

It was that damn discrimination against crannogmen!

Affirmative action, Westeros style.

[Ser Theodan the True]

Affirmative action, Westeros style.

The show doesn't even have the one black character in Westeros (I forget his name, always in KL asking for something). Racist!

[Usrnmhsnomning]

They had no other purpose than to protect their now rightful king.

You mean Aerys? Then Aegon? Then Viserys who takes precedent over a potentially illegitimate and unborn fetus that could be a girl? Yeah, I know exactly what their purpose at ToJ was. And I dispute that they "could have gone". It's fairly evident that when the KG, particularly these three, are given orders, they follow them to a T.

[King of Winters]

You mean Aerys? Then Aegon? Then Viserys who takes precedent over a potentially illegitimate and unborn fetus that could be a girl? Yeah, I know exactly what their purpose at ToJ was.

Maybe Jon was born before Ned and company arrived.

[Woftis]

The show doesn't even have the one black character in Westeros (I forget his name, always in KL asking for something). Racist!

Jalabhar Xho ;)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Woah to the Usurper if we had been. I felt the need to write this quote by Oswell Whent. By the way, is Oswell Whent related to Catelyn Tully?

An uncle. Or maybe a cousin, I'm not sure about the generation.

Once King's Landing was sacked, anyone with a brain can see the Targaryens have lost the entire realm. Ergo, get the legitimate heir the hell out out of dodge. The KG didn't even try.

Was not one member of the KG trained with a bow and arrow to take out anybody who attempted to flee the TOJ? Or did the towers have no windows for this to be an option? Or what if Ned had arrived with 20 men; would they still engage in a suicidal fight out in an open field? What was their plan in case they lost to Ned; let the heir die?

If they were protecting the legitimate king, they did it in about the worst way possible.

That's almost impossible if "anybody" wore armor. All of them did. And definitely impossible if he didn't come into range.

If they lost to Ned, they had to trust his sense of family. Rock and a hard place and such.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In what world is standing completely defenseless in an open field while six riders on horseback are charging towards you defending the king? If Jon was a king, they would either try to get him out to a safe place ( a la Viserys and Dany) or, at the very least if they were stuck at the TOJ, they'd have forced Ned and his riders to fight through the stairs of the tower, coercing them into a bottleneck situation and utilising utilitarian defenses like doors and higher ground to their advantage.

Their fight in front of the TOJ in Ned's dream smells more like three death seekers wanting an honourable end rather than defending (at least competently) anything or anyone.

This post completely ignores the fact that those three guys very nearly defeated Ned's seven and it's implied that it was only some fluke on Howland's part that prevented Dayne from finishing them all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You mean Aerys? Then Aegon? Then Viserys who takes precedent over a potentially illegitimate and unborn fetus that could be a girl? Yeah, I know exactly what their purpose at ToJ was. And I dispute that they "could have gone". It's fairly evident that when the KG, particularly these three, are given orders, they follow them to a T.

I'm pretty sure that I've already answered this point several times. The simplest and likeliest explanation is, Jon had already been born and born a male by the time they found out that the other three Targaryens were dead. So the "What if it had been a girl?" point is moot, because by the time it came down to having to choose between the baby or Viserys, the gender question had already been answered.

[Techelles]

You mean Aerys? Then Aegon? Then Viserys who takes precedent over a potentially illegitimate and unborn fetus that could be a girl? Yeah, I know exactly what their purpose at ToJ was. And I dispute that they "could have gone". It's fairly evident that when the KG, particularly these three, are given orders, they follow them to a T.

What about the standing order upon which their institution was founded? You know, protect the king. Why wouldn't they follow that order (the more important one) to a T? Keep in mind, "protect the king" is not an order that any KG actually needs to be given. It's just their job.

And again, Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon did have KG protection up until they died, so suggesting that the KG at the ToJ were breaking their vows by not being at the Trident or in KL is incorrect.

Also again, Jon could very easily have already been born by the time the KG at the ToJ heard about the sack.

ETA: :ninja:

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Maybe Jon was born before Ned and company arrived.

Just look at it this way; no matter the time frame, can you actually deny that they were still protecting an unborn fetus over Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, and Viserys prior to the Trident? I know I can't. Is it so wrong for me to thus deduce that their presence at the ToJ is therefore simply because Rhaegar said so, and has pretty much nothing to do with the baby and it's potential illegitimacy? Yes, in retrospect and assuming legitimacy, they were protecting their king when Ned arrived. But their orders were simply to protect Rhaegars child, yes? They were already protecting Lyanna before the events that caused the child to be potentially king unfolded. I just do not think this is evidence that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. They were just following orders. As long as Aegon and Aerys live, their presence at the ToJ is simply because they were ordered to be there and not because of vows to protect their king and thus their presence cannot be used as evidence of marriage. In my opinion......

[Usrnmhsnomning]

And again, Aerys and Aegon did have KG protection up until they died, so suggesting that the KG at the ToJ were breaking their vows by not being in KL is incorrect.

They had one KG versus the potentially female fetus who had 3. If that doesn't scream vows to obey Rhaegar over vows to protect the king, I don't know what does and you'll never admit the possibility of what I'm suggesting.

[King of Winters]

Just look at it this way; no matter the time frame, can you actually deny that they were still protecting an unborn fetus over Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, and Viserys prior to the Trident? I know I can't. Is it so wrong for me to thus deduce that their presence at the ToJ is therefore simply because Rhaegar said so, and has pretty much nothing to do with the baby and it's potential illegitimacy? Yes, in retrospect and assuming legitimacy, they were protecting their king when Ned arrived. But their orders were simply to protect Rhaegars child, yes? They were already protecting Lyanna before the events that caused the child to be potentially king unfolded. I just do not think this is evidence that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. They were just following orders. As long as Aegon and Aerys live, their presence at the ToJ is simply because they were ordered to be there and not because of vows to protect their king and thus their presence cannot be used as evidence of marriage. In my opinion......

Well in my opinion Rhaegar ordered them to stay at the ToJ to protect Lyanna and his legitimate child, until they thought he would return. Then when he didn't there primary objective would be to return to KL and protect the king, but I think Jon had already been born by then and a wetnurse, Wylla, was there with Lyanna to help her. The KG saw that Rhaegar's child was indeed a boy and the throne rightfully passed to him. The KG were keeping their vows by protecting the king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They had one KG versus the potentially female fetus who had 3. If that doesn't scream orders to stay over vows to protect the king, I don't know what does and you'll never admit the possibility of what I'm suggesting.

Actually, for all they knew, they had four. I think you're vastly, vastly overestimating the quality of the communications channel between the Tower and the capital. Right up until the Trident (which very, very closely preceded the Sack), the other four Kingsguard were protecting the royal family. It wasn't "just one" until right up to the end, and obviously things went to shit pretty quickly after that. It's not like the guys at the Tower had some Spidey sense telling them only Jaime was now protecting the king. Far likelier that they didn't know ANY of what happened until AFTER it had already happened.

[Techelles]

They had one KG versus the potentially female fetus who had 3. If that doesn't scream orders to stay over vows to protect the king, I don't know what does and you'll never admit the possibility of what I'm suggesting.

One KG and a garrison thousands strong. Also walls. Lyanna and her child were highly controversial, so it makes perfect sense that Rhaegar would entrust their protection to only a few highly trusted individuals.

The point stands that not a single man of Aerys' KG was technically breaking his vows at any point...until they failed to protect Viserys after everyone else was dead, if he was indeed the heir.

ETA: Apple makes a good point. I doubt anyone at the ToJ had any specific knowledge of how the other four KG were allotted. (Even so, though, if even one is with the king, the vow is technically fulfilled.) And then there's the point that they learned of all the major events of the rebellion well after the fact.

[Balerion06]

This post completely ignores the fact that those three guys very nearly defeated Ned's seven and it's implied that it was only some fluke on Howland's part that prevented Dayne from finishing them all.

And then what would Arthur Dayne, the sole survivor, proceed to do? Single-handedly protect the king while being (most likely) very badly wounded? What if there were 20 more Northmen over the hill who arrived a minute after he killed Ned and Howland?

[Winterz]

Honestly, I think Aerys granted the 3 of them to protect his son, otherwise they wouldn't be with him because despite their friendship with Rhaegar, the 3 were always regarded as honor and duty above all. Evidence to this would be that Rhaegar as the Prince and heir to the throne should be somewhat guarded by Kingsguard and yet in the Trident there were none bodyguarding him.

[Woftis]

And then what would Arthur Dayne, the sole survivor, proceed to do? Single-handedly protect the king while being (most likely) very badly wounded? What if there were 20 more Northmen over the hill who arrived a minute after he killed Ned and Howland?

He would fight them and die doing his duty - defending his king.

[King of Winters]

And then what would Arthur Dayne, the sole survivor, proceed to do? Single-handedly protect the king while being (most likely) very badly wounded? What if there were 20 more Northmen over the hill who arrived a minute after he killed Ned and Howland?

He'd die doing what he swore to do, protect his rightful king.

[Ser Theodan the True]

And then what would Arthur Dayne, the sole survivor, proceed to do? Single-handedly protect the king while being (most likely) very badly wounded? What if there were 20 more Northmen over the hill who arrived a minute after he killed Ned and Howland?

If it were me, I would have made for Dorne. The Martell's would have been able to hide Jon and keep him secret from the realm. Since it would be just one man and a baby, they could potentially make the journey provided Dayne lost his white cloak and Dawn.