King of Winters Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 maybe not "real love", but surely he was infatued with her.It was real love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woftis Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I actually think he loved from the start.I suppose this comes down to how you define love. I'm not a big believer in love at first sight haha :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I suppose this comes down to how you define love. I'm not a big believer in love at first sight haha :PI can see your a true romantic, as am I :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 What is the primary purpose of Kingsguard, to obey orders, or to guard King?The same for choosing themselves honourable death over guarding their king, that would be breaking thei rvows, which they explicitely state they are upholding.I think here lies the moral dillema: do what's right given the changing circumstances (protect the heir and his future son, obey his orders) or do what you vowed to in the first place (defend the king, then the next in line). But again, we don't have a full job description for a member of KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 What is the primary purpose of Kingsguard, to obey orders, or to guard King?The same for choosing themselves honourable death over guarding their king, that would be breaking thei rvows, which they explicitely state they are upholding.In what world is standing completely defenseless in an open field while six riders on horseback are charging towards you defending the king? If Jon was a king, they would either try to get him out to a safe place ( a la Viserys and Dany) or, at the very least if they were stuck at the TOJ, they'd have forced Ned and his riders to fight through the stairs of the tower, coercing them into a bottleneck situation and utilising utilitarian defenses like doors and higher ground to their advantage.Their fight in front of the TOJ in Ned's dream smells more like three death seekers wanting an honourable end rather than defending (at least competently) anything or anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 They didn't lose the fealty of the whole kingdom, there were still many Targ loyalists. Besides, the Lannisters showed their true colours only after Rhaegar's death, and the same goes to Robert condoning the murders of children.I know, I meant that Rhaeger was aware that the tide was slowly turning against the royal family, even before the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I think here lies the moral dillema: do what's right given the changing circumstances (protect the heir and his future son, obey his orders) or do what you vowed to in the first place (defend the king, then the next in line). But again, we don't have a full job description for a member of KG.Guard and defend the king, says Jaime. And, by the time Ned arrives, the circumstances are already set: the King is dead, the Crown Prince is dead, his baby son is dead. Viserys lives, and by the right of succession, is King, and MUST be protected by the KG. Unless Lyanna's child is legitimate and therefore before Viserys, the KG cannot - all three of them - stay at ToJ because it would mean that they give higher priority to Rhaegar's order than to protecting their king. - Sure, they can choose to do so, but they would be breaking their vows doing that, which they claim they are upholding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 Guard and defend the king, says Jaime. And, by the time Ned arrives, the circumstances are already set: the King is dead, the Crown Prince is dead, his baby son is dead. Viserys lives, and by the right of succession, is King, and MUST be protected by the KG. Unless Lyanna's child is legitimate and therefore before Viserys, the KG cannot - all three of them - stay at ToJ because it would mean that they give higher priority to Rhaegar's order than to protecting their king. - Sure, they can choose to do so, but they would be breaking their vows doing that, which they claim they are upholding.1) Only if Rhaegar legally married Lyanna, then those three must remain at ToJ2) Otherwise, if not - and if they don't know for a fact that Viserys is dead - they must be with him, as the next king.Anyhow, the timing would be of capital importance - who dies first. Maybe they had ravens at the ToJ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 In what world is standing completely defenseless in an open field while six riders on horseback are charging towards you defending the king? If Jon was a king, they would either try to get him out to a safe place ( a la Viserys and Dany) or, at the very least if they were stuck at the TOJ, they'd have forced Ned and his riders to fight through the stairs of the tower, coercing them into a bottleneck situation and utilising utilitarian defenses like doors and higher ground to their advantage.Their fight in front of the TOJ in Ned's dream smells more like three death seekers wanting an honourable end rather than defending (at least competently) anything or anyone."And now it begins" doesn't really sound like deathwish to me.The point of transporting Jon to safety was addressed on page 2 of this thread or so.Barricading themselves in the tower has one disadvantage - the opponents are free to send for reinforcements. The whole time, secrecy was the main defence of ToJ, and after the murder of Rhaegar's children, it's doubly vital that Jon's existence is not revealed.I know, I meant that Rhaeger was aware that the tide was slowly turning against the royal family, even before the Trident.I don't think there are clues to support this - the royal army was even bigger than that of the Rebels, the Storms' End was still under heavy siege... the Targs still had wide support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 I don't think there are clues to support this - the royal army was even bigger than that of the Rebels, the Storms' End was still under heavy siege... the Targs still had wide support.I read it somehow differently after the Battle of the Bells. Even though the royal army was bigger, the rebels seemed more...determined and well lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I'm pretty sure they were there because Rhaegar ordered them, or they were aware of a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Also, Aerys wouldn't be suspecting Jaime's betrayal, which is why he probably had the three of them fight in battles and obey Rhaegar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makes No Sansa Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Woah to the Usurper if we had been. I felt the need to write this quote by Oswell Whent. By the way, is Oswell Whent related to Catelyn Tully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 Woah to the Usurper if we had been. I felt the need to write this quote by Oswell Whent. By the way, is Oswell Whent related to Catelyn Tully?House Whent is sworn to House Tully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 "And now it begins" doesn't really sound like deathwish to me.The point of transporting Jon to safety was addressed on page 2 of this thread or so.Once King's Landing was sacked, anyone with a brain can see the Targaryens have lost the entire realm. Ergo, get the legitimate heir the hell out out of dodge. The KG didn't even try.Barricading themselves in the tower has one disadvantage - the opponents are free to send for reinforcements. The whole time, secrecy was the main defence of ToJ, and after the murder of Rhaegar's children, it's doubly vital that Jon's existence is not revealed.Was not one member of the KG trained with a bow and arrow to take out anybody who attempted to flee the TOJ? Or did the towers have no windows for this to be an option? Or what if Ned had arrived with 20 men; would they still engage in a suicidal fight out in an open field? What was their plan in case they lost to Ned; let the heir die?If they were protecting the legitimate king, they did it in about the worst way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Woah to the Usurper if we had been. I felt the need to write this quote by Oswell Whent. By the way, is Oswell Whent related to Catelyn Tully?Yes he is, although the precise relation of Ser Oswell to Cat's mother Lady Minisa is still unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makes No Sansa Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Yes he is, although the precise relation of Ser Oswell to Cat's mother Lady Minisa is still unclear.He probably was Minisa's brother, making him Ned's uncle-in-law. That makes it funny hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Theodan the True Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Maybe they all just really hated Ned for some reason? Haha, it would be funny, and disappointing, if nothing ever came of this (which I totally disagree). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Jon had to have been legitimate otherwise the KG wouldn't have stayed with a bastard.Unless they were following orders to do so. >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 Maybe they all just really hated Ned for some reason? Haha, it would be funny, and disappointing, if nothing ever came of this (which I totally disagree).Or better, Howland Reed and his unconventional fighting style :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Theodan the True Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Or better, Howland Reed and his unconventional fighting style :)It was that damn discrimination against crannogmen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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