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R+L=J v.46

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Lol, and I didn't even mention the continuation - I relayed how Ned has a mysterious "my blood" bastard, has been living lies, and the meaning of "bed of blood" , and you guess what conclusion she immediately made, including that the KG are apparently there for this particular purpose :P

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Lol, and I didn't even mention the continuation - I relayed how Ned has a mysterious "my blood" bastard, has been living lies, and the meaning of "bed of blood" , and you guess what conclusion she immediately made, including that the KG are apparently there for this particular purpose :P

I have absolutely no doubt what the immediate response was. :D

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Regarding the vows being something they made as an arrangement with Rhaegar and not their normal KG vows - it's clear that Hightower means, "We swore a vow, you of all people should understand it". Not saying, "We had an arrangement with Rhaegar". Because if the latter - it's irrelevant - it would be like saying, "I had an apple pie for breakfast".

And the KG does not flee - this is a principle, that's how they lay it out. Which would mean that they don't flee when they do their job, not that they do not back out of a dice game. Which implies they are doing their job, not they they don't flee because they have nothing to do there, and are just too stubborn.

And Ygrain's expert witness percieves is just the way unbiased readers do (I have done similar experiments with people who had only watched like half of season one and didn't know who R and L even were).

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So I'm sure this has been brought up over the years and tens of thousands of posts, but I am re-reading aGoT for the first time and came across this ironic description of Jon:

[Jon Snow] had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Not evidence of anything, of course, but if Lyanna truly is his mother that's one of many little gems spread across the books.

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So I'm sure this has been brought up over the years and tens of thousands of posts, but I am re-reading aGoT for the first time and came across this ironic description of Jon:

[Jon Snow] had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Not evidence of anything, of course, but if Lyanna truly is his mother that's one of many little gems spread across the books.

Ah, yes. Tyrion's quote. I marked it as either a clue against LRJ or a red herring.

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Ah, yes. Tyrion's quote. I marked it as either a clue against LRJ or a red herring.

Yes. Another red herring from GRRM that Jon was Ned's son (which I fell for), just like this sentence on page 380 of GoT:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own."

Seriously, what other inference was I supposed to draw from such a sentence, other then Jon was Ned's son? :D

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@rondo and @Maxpey I think both of those examples are great at illustrating how if you already have a preconceived notion in your head other info gets interpreted in line with that knowledge, and how Ned played with that in keeping Jon safe and secret. Particularly the Tyrion one, where it is clear that based on his knowledge of the situtation (Jon's is Ned's), he assumes there is nothing of the mother in Jon. When in fact the truth is there is only Stark in Jon's outward appearance and nothing of the other family. The same thing with Ned's quote (although that is more misleading since Ned is the secret keeper in all this), the assumption on the part of the reader is that Jon is Ned's, but all it really points to is that they are definitively blood relatives, not father/son.

On a personal note I find the whole Jon looks like his uncle thing very amusing because I don't personally look like either of my parents but am the spitting image of my great-aunt.

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@rondo and @Maxpey I think both of those examples are great at illustrating how if you already have a preconceived notion in your head other info gets interpreted in line with that knowledge, and how Ned played with that in keeping Jon safe and secret. Particularly the Tyrion one, where it is clear that based on his knowledge of the situtation (Jon's is Ned's), he assumes there is nothing of the mother in Jon. When in fact the truth is there is only Stark in Jon's outward appearance and nothing of the other family. The same thing with Ned's quote (although that is more misleading since Ned is the secret keeper in all this), the assumption on the part of the reader is that Jon is Ned's, but all it really points to is that they are definitively blood relatives, not father/son.

On a personal note I find the whole Jon looks like his uncle thing very amusing because I don't personally look like either of my parents but am the spitting image of my great-aunt.

Also on a personal note, the irony about falling for GRRM's red herrings is that I too look exactly like my maternal uncle!

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Ah, yes. Tyrion's quote. I marked it as either a clue against LRJ or a red herring.

Well yeah, but that is from Tyrion's POV and he obviously thinks NEd is the father and the mother is someone else (not a Stark), so it really is a point in favor of R+L=J, because he is saying that Jon looks like a Stark from the north, which he is, being Lyanna's son.

Edit: if anything this is another proof that The Targaryen gene pool is weak compared with others, Obviously the Baratheon's have more dominant gene's than Targ's as as Steffon Baratheon was half-Targ and here with Jon, we see the Starks do too. I have done a lot of research lately on the dominant and recessive gene's of the targaryens, and in most cases when a Targ breeds with a non-targ of one of the other great houses, that child gets the hair and eye-coloring of the non-Targ parent. Not (mind you) in every case, but very often. Most of the Targ's who have silver-blonde hair and purple eyes are the result of both parents being Targ.

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There are not a lot of scenarios that make any sense, overall for what happened. GRRM has said he could write a complete novel based on only the events at Harrenhal, so we may never gue5ss everything. But, let’s have a fair shot at this, yes?I don’t see that as important at all. It should be obvious that either Ashara’s plea was refused, or that Aerys had a “special” motive for wanting to get rid of House Stark. The use of the singular surname implies dealing with House Stark, proper. He could have done what Jaime does, I suppose, but much sooner. I think we need to hear from Barristan what he would have done, but obviously he wasn’t going to break his celibacy for Ashara, he says so. If he wants to keep them, nothing. But, we really need to hear from Barristan why he thinks that looking to him would be more productive than looking to House Stark.Three times, the same question, and three times the same answer.Fourth time, remember where Barristan is, he is standing next to the king, with a sword at hand. Does Barristan say that he knows who raped Ashara? No. Is it possible that he does know, but like Ned conceals tha information from the reader? Yes.

No more thin than Brandon raped Ashara. Nor more thin than Ned and Ashara had a fling. Nothing specific has been given us, and there is a strong possibility that Ashara’s child had Targaryen appearances.

Oh, I'm not advocating that Brandon raped Ashara. I don't think a rape occurred at all, and that Selmy means "dishonor" in a chivalric sense, alluding to pre-marital sex.

That being said, forgive me if you felt my questions were redundant. I originally had all those points phrased in one question, but I felt it was awkwardly worded, and broke them into seperate questions.

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Oh, I'm not advocating that Brandon raped Ashara. I don't think a rape occurred at all, and that Selmy means "dishonor" in a chivalric sense, alluding to pre-marital sex.

That being said, forgive me if you felt my questions were redundant. I originally had all those points phrased in one question, but I felt it was awkwardly worded, and broke them into seperate questions.

Okay. Let's consider the fact that Ashara is Dornish and that there does not seem to be significant social stigma with extramarital sexual relations and offspring of such unions. Why would Barristan be overly distraught, and wish that his aid be sought regarding such liaison? Why would Ashara consider it a dishonor, and seek anyone regarding the matter? This just doesn't make sense if one attempts to perceive the dishonor as consensual.

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I don't think that she can withdraw consent, nor would a Dornish woman be excessively dishonored in such an arrangement. Examine the case of almost every "quote" of that line, it seems to be interpretted to be "turned" to thus giving an option for Brandon to be the Stark and offering comfort. However, Barristan wants her to look to him before looking to a Stark, and he has just reaffirmed his celibacy, so it can't be for comfort. It must be for justice.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is to read it in the context of Selmy musing on what he could've done to prevent the dishonor from happening. Winning the tourney is the only method for letting her know his feelings that he has available. He failed, and his logic is: Had I won, Ashara would've known I loved her. Had she known, she would not have looked to Stark. Had she not looked to Stark, she would not have been dishonoured. Has she not been dishonoured, she would not have had a stillbirth, nor grieved for the man that dishonoured her. Had she not had a stillbirth, nor greived foe the man that dishonored her, she would not have committed suicide. But, I lost the tourney, my greatest failure...

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Okay. Let's consider the fact ath Ashara is Dornish and that there does not seem to be significant social stigma with extramarital sexual relations and offspring of such unions. Why would Barristan be overly distraught, and wish that his aid be sought regarding such liaison?

Because he has the opposite attitudes regarding sex. By looking to him, instead of Stark, she would have looked to a man that would never have had sex w her yto begin with, thus no grief, no stillbirth, no suicide...

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Yes. Another red herring from GRRM that Jon was Ned's son (which I fell for)

It could be interpreted that way, but I think it's more a clever play on words. Tyrion is simply misinformed on which of Jon's parents gave him the Stark features.

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So I'm sure this has been brought up over the years and tens of thousands of posts, but I am re-reading aGoT for the first time and came across this ironic description of Jon:

[Jon Snow] had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Not evidence of anything, of course, but if Lyanna truly is his mother that's one of many little gems spread across the books.

Or the irony that the mother left all of herself in him. :)

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Also on a personal note, the irony about falling for GRRM's red herrings is that I too look exactly like my maternal uncle!

Wow, me too, and not only in appearance but in personality.

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That's one way to look at it. Another way is to read it in the context of Selmy musing on what he could've done to prevent the dishonor from happening. Winning the tourney is the only method for letting her know his feelings that he has available. He failed, and his logic is: Had I won, Ashara would've known I loved her. Had she known, she would not have looked to Stark. Had she not looked to Stark, she would not have been dishonoured. Has she not been dishonoured, she would not have had a stillbirth, nor grieved for the man that dishonoured her. Had she not had a stillbirth, nor greived foe the man that dishonored her, she would not have committed suicide. But, I lost the tourney, my greatest failure...

If the tourney lasted ten days, and Ashara was dishonored at the tourney, why would awarding the crown on the last day of the tourney made any difference. I think we can just disagaree. There is no proof one way or the other, and I will continue to believe what I want about Ashara and who dishonored her at the tourney, and what looking to a Stark meant. The topic of this thread is unrelated to Ashara's story. So, we return to our regularly scheduled topic of R + L = J. ;)

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Well yeah, but that is from Tyrion's POV and he obviously thinks NEd is the father and the mother is someone else (not a Stark), so it really is a point in favor of R+L=J, because he is saying that Jon looks like a Stark from the north, which he is, being Lyanna's son.

Edit: if anything this is another proof that The Targaryen gene pool is weak compared with others, Obviously the Baratheon's have more dominant gene's than Targ's as as Steffon Baratheon was half-Targ and here with Jon, we see the Starks do too. I have done a lot of research lately on the dominant and recessive gene's of the targaryens, and in most cases when a Targ breeds with a non-targ of one of the other great houses, that child gets the hair and eye-coloring of the non-Targ parent. Not (mind you) in every case, but very often. Most of the Targ's who have silver-blonde hair and purple eyes are the result of both parents being Targ.

I have a high standard of proof. From all the physical comparisons made between Jon and Ned, Jon and Arya, Arya and Lyanna, that Jon is related to Ned is the only conclusion I feel confident drawing. Since I don't know what the result of a Stark and Targaryen union looks like (prior to Jon), and since dominant and recessive (genes) are relative terms, I am happy to leave evidence like this one (and all others like it) as ambiguous.

I don't feel the need to justify or explain away every single piece of text that, under certain lights, could be for or against LRJ. :closedeyes:

Plus the quote we are referring to is from Tyrion, so I see even less reason to argue over its weight as a potential corroborating evidence.

Rather than giving me another excuse to ramble on, I would LOVE to hear your research on the Targaryens and which Targ characteristics are expressed/suppressed when the adventurous ones dared to stray from the Family. :)

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If the tourney lasted ten days, and Ashara was dishonored at the tourney, why would awarding the crown on the last day of the tourney made any difference. I think we can just disagaree. There is no proof one way or the other, and I will continue to believe what I want about Ashara and who dishonored her at the tourney, and what looking to a Stark meant. The topic of this thread is unrelated to Ashara's story. So, we return to our regularly scheduled topic of R + L = J. ;)

Fair enough, and cheers, my friend...

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Thank you all guys :grouphug:

I'm re-reading ASoIaF trying to apply the same method that guided my study of Dante's Divine Comedy. I.e. a full symbolic and allegorical analysis. Sometimes I come accross passages that have already been discussed (bear with me, I'm relatively new to the forum) sometimes the hunt is more fruitful ;) To be continued...

All Hail the Mighty Hunter! :bowdown:

Can't wait to see what more you uncover. Enjoy the journey!

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