R+L=J v.46

[kothetimeless]

Thanks for the welcome! Yeah I was a bit confused with the timeline of the events. I feel the orders to protect Lyanna would have come way before anyone died.

The reason they were initially at the TOJ is not the same reason for why they stayed. If they were ordered to be there, that makes sense up to the point that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon died leaving Viserys as the presumed king...unless the new king was at the TOJ. In short, whatever orders Rhaegar gave them makes no difference once the king was dead.

But would they have stayed there with only 2 Targs surviving? A bastard could not sit on the throne. They had to immediately protect Viserys if he was king.

Thanks for bringing it up. Welcome to the forum!

[Dr. Pepper]

This is always brought up, moon tea is not terminate a pregnancy. Tansy tea does, but it has side-effects. It is her child, and it is up to her, right?

Tansy is the ingredient in moon tea. Riverlanders call it tansy tea. It's the same thing.

[kothetimeless]

Thanks for the welcome! Yeah I was a bit confused with the timeline of the events. I feel the orders to protect Lyanna would have come way before anyone died.

The reason they were initially at the TOJ is not the same reason for why they stayed. If they were ordered to be there, that makes sense up to the point that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon died leaving Viserys as the presumed king...unless the new king was at the TOJ. In short, whatever orders Rhaegar gave them makes no difference once the king was dead.

But would they have stayed there with only 2 Targs surviving? A bastard could not sit on the throne. They had to immediately protect Viserys if he was king.

Thanks for bringing it up. Welcome to the forum!

[MtnLion]

Tansy is the ingredient in moon tea. Riverlanders call it tansy tea. It's the same thing.

No, Tansy is an ingredient in Moon Tea, but Tansy Tea is an abortive.

[Dr. Pepper]

No, Tansy is an ingredient in Moon Tea, but Tansy Tea is an abortive.

I prefer quoting directly from the books. Tansy is an ingredient in moon tea. The tea, whether it's called moon tea or tansy tea is an abortifacient.

And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o’ moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted.”

“I gave you my maiden’s gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn’t me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . .”

Afterward, Asha had the sense to find a woods witch, who showed her how to brew moon tea to keep her belly flat.

Women only drank moon tea for one reason; maidens had no need for it at all.

She has drunk of moon tea, to murder the fruit of her fornications in her womb.

She would need to brew some moon tea or risk bringing another kraken into the world.

Women in the Riverlands call it tansy tea.

“The riverlands are full of maids you’ve pleased, all drinking tansy tea. You’d think a man as old as you would know to spill his seed on their bellies."

[Jon Icefyre]

Young Arya yes, current Arya would get competative and kill them. People forget how condescending the Dornish can be and the Snake sisters are no exception. I don't imagine they have much love for the Starks, they tend to be sensative about the rebelion. Dorne really took it on the chin, Elia, the kids, Ashara, Arthur, lets not forget whos father killed Arthur Dayne.

I don't agree with that at all. The Sand Snakes seemed fine with Myrcella even though their hatred is strongest against the Lannisters, if Ayra met them on friendly terms I don't see any ill will whatsoever coming out of it. As Oberyn Martell has admitted to Tyrion, Sunspear was all for Sansa coming with Tyrion to Dorne because of the power she would potentially represent as a lady of Winterfell so why wouldn't they react the same to Arya who is another lady of Winterfell? Besides some could argue the Sand Snakes urge to kill is on par with Arya's, so they might acknowledge and respect that similarity in each other causing them to get along even better, maybe even having the Sand Snakes teach Arya a thing or two. This whole Dorne hates everyone that isn't Dornish thing is a bit ridiculous.

[gash]

As such he is the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne

i've seen people say this in a lot of places. surely as a bastard he is not the rightful heir to any throne?

[Jon Icefyre]

i've seen people say this in a lot of places. surely as a bastard he is not the rightful heir to any throne?

The vast majority of R+L=J supporters believe it on the basis that Rhaegar secretely married Lyanna, thus making Jon legitimate. Go back to the first page of this thread and read all the info for new forum members and it explains it all.

[gash]

The vast majority of R+L=J believe it on the basis that Rhaegar secretely married Lyanna, thus making Jon legitimate. Go back to the first page of this thread and read all the info for new forum members and it explains it all.

i read them today, as far as i can see the only evidence for him being legitimate is the prescence of the KG at the tower? pretty strong evidence of course, are there other pieces of evidence i'm missing?

[Revae]

The answer was also mentioned a couple of times, but hard to find them in the many threads.

Basically that multiple marriages could have been allowed by Targ custom and if Rhaegar and Lyanna did wed, with his Kingsguard as witness, then Jon would finally, not be a bastard.

Also the interesting thing would be if they wed at a weirwood tree - Bran would be able to see it happen if he travelled back to the right time, to the right tree. I have little doubt we'll see something of this sort soon.

[FittleLinger]

I'll add that if Rhaegar believed that Jon would be a prophesized hero and that he should work with his sieblings (3 heads of the dragon) it would be logical to marry Lyanna so that Jon is legit, which will make him have supporters and followers in the upcomming battle , and also eliminate the possibility of a succession conflict between him and Aegon and Rhaenys.

[gash]

okay thanks, pretty strong evidence then.

[The guy from the Vale]

okay thanks, pretty strong evidence then.

Add to that Mormont's Raven (aka Bloodraven, a known Targaryen supporter) calling Jon 'king' from early ACoK. But Jon can only be king if he's legitimate...

[Jon Icefyre]

Add to that Mormont's Raven (aka Bloodraven, a known Targaryen supporter) calling Jon 'king' from early ACoK. But Jon can only be king if he's legitimate...

Ya to be honest If Jon manages to stay alive I really don't see how he doesn't walks away ruling something, GRRM has just given too many ways for Jon to take charge. I know a lot of ppl like to argue the whole "keeping his oath to the NW" ordeal but I think he'll need much a higher position in the realm than LC of the NW, in order to gain the support/resources he'll need to defeat the Others. With R+L=J and Robb's will he'll either be named Rhaegar's true heir of Westeros or Robb's heir of the North or maybe even both. So in my opinion it will come down to Jon choosing what he wants to rule. Btw things are going in the story I'd say the North will be handed to him on a silver platter, but the south would definitely be something he would have to work for.

[gash]

okay one more thing, (i'm new enough to this theory so forgive me if i'm asking questions that have been answered a million times)

it seem like many people in the books hold rhaeger in high regard - jorah, barristan, ned, many commoners loved him (still love him?). i'm sure others i can't think of..

which would suggest a large amount of people do not believe he kidnapped and raped a noble girl. i.e. that he eloped with a woman he loved and who loved him.

so wouldn't ned (widely known as an honorable man) coming back with a child shortly after lyanna died (and having been hidden away by rhaegar for at least a few months) raise huge suspicion from a lot of people? seems implausible that ned was the only one (and howland reed) with any inkling at all about jon's parentage. half of westeros would have been whispering surely?

[Revae]

Exactly why Ned made it seem like it was his son from some random girl. Not even his bff at the time, Robert, knew who it was - just guessed.

Ned also spends a lot of time during his dungeon/final days thinking of a promise he made to Lyanna and finding her covered in blood (birthing Jon) - which a lot of people, myself included, are saying it's obvious that it was a promise he made to Lyanna to never reveal that Jon was HER son to Rhaegar and not his - because if another Targaryen was born then who MAY possibly have a claim to the throne, he would end up dead - think what happened with Elia and her children.

[corbon]

But, you forget that Barristan says "Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal", not later when she discovered that she was pregnant.

"If it becomes public" works for that, as does the dishonouring actions happening at Harrenhal, even if discovery comes later.

Barristan does not say who dishonored Ashara, simply "a man". And, he does not say that looking to Stark was what led to her dishonor, since he would have preferred that she look to him, first, and he had no intention of dishonoring her. Why couldn't Ashara look to the king for assistance, is house Stark denies her? Why is she limited to House Stark, and Barristan if he convinces her of his love for her?

Who says she is?

Only that Barristan thinks she would have had an alternative option that is him.

All anyone can point to is Lady Dustin';s commentary to indict Brandon, but I don't think that her dialog was intended as a true representation of the facts. If Barbrey and Brandon had been involved, it likely was at Barbrey's invitation, since she had little to lose and much to gain.

Also Barristan's belief that young girls in his experience (which include Ashara) always go for fire men, which Brandon quintessentially is, not mud men, which Ned quintessentially is.

And the fact that Brandon fits with everything we know and also works with rumours (just slightly incorrectly, as is often the case with rumours) and connections also. Posit a Brandon-Ashara affair that ended badly with Ashara pregnant and everything everywhere we know fits, even the rumours about Ned+Ashara, which are all by people not at Harrenhal, and could be the consequence of "a Stark+Ashara" vague rumours from Harrenhal and Neds trip to Starfall and Ashara's suicide and Jon's appearance.

Lady Barbrey's characterisation is only one of the clues, and not the major one.

Sorry, we digressed again. No need to answer my questions, they are rhetorical. I will start a thread for this, at some future date.

Sorry, but theres a good chance I'll miss it. I have to relocate my family internationally inside the next month, so there will be times when I'm away for days or weeks, and some things disappear of the front 5 pages in a single day - especially with the new HBO season just started (and it doesn't start around here for another week or two) and a new flood of noobs.

[Black Crow]

Add to that Mormont's Raven (aka Bloodraven, a known Targaryen supporter) calling Jon 'king' from early ACoK. But Jon can only be king if he's legitimate...

Not at all. He can only claim to be the rightful lawful king of Westeros (assuming he wants to, which is by no means given) if he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. If he isn't he can use his sword. William of Normandy, aka The Conqueror, aka William 1 of England was also known as William the Bastard (a tanner's daughter as I recall) so bastardy is no impediment to kingship if the will is there.

As to Mormont's and now Jon's raven, I wouldn't necessarily take that as hailing him King of Westeros - as a son of Winterfell he could well be the next King of Winter.

[Jon Icefyre]

Not at all. He can only claim to be the rightful lawful king of Westeros (assuming he wants to, which is by no means given) if he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. If he isn't he can use his sword. William of Normandy, aka The Conqueror, aka William 1 of England was also known as William the Bastard (a tanner's daughter as I recall) so bastardy is no impediment to kingship if the will is there.

As to Mormont's and now Jon's raven, I wouldn't necessarily take that as hailing him King of Westeros - as a son of Winterfell he could well be the next King of Winter.

By king of winter do you mean king of the North? Because Bloodraven/Mormont's raven called Jon king in acok long before the RW happened so I don't really see how the raven could have just meant king of the North since Robb was stiil alive and thriving at that point. It seems more likely that Bloodraven was talking about Westeros as a whole, unless he saw a future vision of Robb's death or something.

[The guy from the Vale]

Not at all. He can only claim to be the rightful lawful king of Westeros (assuming he wants to, which is by no means given) if he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. If he isn't he can use his sword. William of Normandy, aka The Conqueror, aka William 1 of England was also known as William the Bastard (a tanner's daughter as I recall) so bastardy is no impediment to kingship if the will is there.

As to Mormont's and now Jon's raven, I wouldn't necessarily take that as hailing him King of Westeros - as a son of Winterfell he could well be the next King of Winter.

Yes, he can become king that way, and I'd probably agree with you that his claim alone will not be enough to make him king. But to me it seems clear the raven is calling Jon king now. And at the time of ACoK, Jon is only king if he's the Targaryen heir.