R+L=J v.46

[Sasha Steelsong]

They also make the point that the person who is with Viserys isn't Kingsguard. He's a good man, but Kingsguard don't flee. Implied: the kingsguard stay to guard the king.

Off topic to the current discussion (and I'm sure this has come up many a time) but I was reading through ASoS last night, and I'd forgotten that whenever Jon and Robb dueled, Jon usually pretended to be a famous Targaryen knight. Foreshadowing? But mostly, I think it's adorable.

Something similar just happened to me. Started listening to GOT again for a re-listen (I both read and listen to the books depending on mood) and was really stuck by the first description we get of Jon and done in comparison to Robb in Bran I. Jon is quick and graceful and given a lot of the qualities that are used later to describe Rhaegar and his fighting style. It always strikes me how many of the non-appearance characteristics Jon can be found in descriptions of Rhaegar. I love that there does actually seem to be a lot of both of his parents in him, even if his mother won out on the coloring (and thank goodness for all concerned that she did ;))

[FrozenFire3]

They also make the point that the person who is with Viserys isn't Kingsguard. He's a good man, but Kingsguard don't flee. Implied: the kingsguard stay to guard the king.

Off topic to the current discussion (and I'm sure this has come up many a time) but I was reading through ASoS last night, and I'd forgotten that whenever Jon and Robb dueled, Jon usually pretended to be a famous Targaryen knight. Foreshadowing? But mostly, I think it's adorable.

Yep, Aemon the Dragonknight who, according to vox populi, was probably his grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand dad... The irony of fate ;)

Btw welcome aboard!

To this apparently eternal debate, let me add the following quote from ASoS, ch.67

(emphasis mine)

In other words, it is the duty of the LC to assure that at least one KG remains with the king at all times. Since the three at ToJ are clearly aware that they are the only living KG, what in creation would they be doing standing calmly in front of a Tower in Dorne if the true king (Viserys?) were hundreds of miles away and unprotected? It goes against everything we know about the institution of the Kingsguard.

Not to mention Jaime's dream:

"We all swore oaths," said Arthur Daynes, so sadly.

[...]

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

[...]

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

The parallel with Ned's dream is evident. The characterizations are coherent. In both dreams strong emphasis is on White Bull&Co staying true to the oaths/vows they swore. In Jaime's dream the description of the primary duty entailed by their vows is explicit: keeping safe the king even at cost of life.

Jaime's dream = instructions.

Ned's dream = implementation.

[Nine of Spades]

They also make the point that the person who is with Viserys isn't Kingsguard. He's a good man, but Kingsguard don't flee. Implied: the kingsguard stay to guard the king.

Off topic to the current discussion (and I'm sure this has come up many a time) but I was reading through ASoS last night, and I'd forgotten that whenever Jon and Robb dueled, Jon usually pretended to be a famous Targaryen knight. Foreshadowing? But mostly, I think it's adorable.

However in R+L Jon is not yet born, he is being born, no? How does the Kingsguard know the sex of the child, or if the child will survive what is a difficult birth? If the King literally must be guarded at all times, then without knowing if Lyanna's unborn child would be a boy and therefore king, at least one of those 3 Kingsguard should have been going to Dragonstone. The other thing is Im not even sure a boy would be king. At the time of Aegon, Aerys, and Rhaegar's death, the next in line would have been Viserys. At that time he would have been the only living male heir of Aerys and thus be the King. I dont think you get un-made King if another potential heir ahead of you gets born AFTER you are the King. We are getting into the weeds of what Westerosi inheritence law says though.

I think questions of Jon's potential legitimacy are entirely moot anyways, as at this stage only 1 person remains who would have any knowledge of that, Howland Reed. And I dont think the great lords of westeros are going to take him on his word. Even Howland may not know. Even under R+L=J there are a lot of mysteries I think associated with what really happened at the Tower of Joy. Not the least of which being why the Daynes helped Ned Stark in his deception (they surely had to know something was up when he showed up with a strange baby claiming it was his, last time I checked you had to have one in the oven for 9 months) but later took no interest in Jon Snow. If they were loyalists, and Jon was a potential heir, why would they let Ned walk off with the boy, then take no interest in him thereafter?

I would put R+L=J at 85% as being the most likely answer to Jon's parentage, but I also think that even in R+L=J there are a lot of questions, particularly about the Tower of Joy, that the reader just doesnt have answers to.

[The guy from the Vale]

Unless they didn't hear about Aerys' death until after Jon's birth.

Also, in our history, it was custom to wait until a possible heir was born if a queen or princess in question was pregnant. There was no king in that time then.

[FrozenFire3]

Something similar just happened to me. Started listening to GOT again for a re-listen (I both read and listen to the books depending on mood) and was really stuck by the first description we get of Jon and done in comparison to Robb in Bran I. Jon is quick and graceful and given a lot of the qualities that are used later to describe Rhaegar and his fighting style. It always strikes me how many of the non-appearance characteristics Jon can be found in descriptions of Rhaegar. I love that there does actually seem to be a lot of both of his parents in him, even if his mother won out on the coloring (and thank goodness for all concerned that she did ;))

The juxtaposition is very telling:

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half-brother was strong and fast.

[Nine of Spades]

Unless they didn't hear about Aerys' death until after Jon's birth.

Also, in our history, it was custom to wait until a possible heir was born if a queen or princess in question was pregnant. There was no king in that time then.

Very unlikely they hadnt heard about it with the raven network of the maesters. Death of a king is big news.

As for inheritence law in our history, its really, really going to vary from place to place. And often be enforced via swordpoint. I dont see how Viserys/Jon's succession wouldnt end in a bloody civil war, if a bloody civil war hadnt just made them irrelevant.

[nirolo]

While I agree with your interpretation of what is factual from the dream, I would add that the small parts that do not appear factual are actually (as is the nature of a dream) very important symbolically- the blood streaked sky with the storm of rose petals and Lyanna's bed of blood symbolize the birth of the child, the presence of the child and the death of the child's mother as has been discussed at some length above.This is most likely the answer to the question of why use a dream sequence as a narrative device- there are some points the author wants to remain hidden, so he offers a dream which is a mixture of reality and symbolism.

I had a feeling someone will make me regret saying that. Fair enough, I will hand over the job of interpreting and translating the abstract part of the dream to you.

[FrozenFire3]

Unless they didn't hear about Aerys' death until after Jon's birth.

Also, in our history, it was custom to wait until a possible heir was born if a queen or princess in question was pregnant. There was no king in that time then.

Exactly. People tend to forget that we ignore the delay rate for news to reach such a secluded place.

[The guy from the Vale]

Very unlikely they hadnt heard about it with the raven network of the maesters. Death of a king is big news.

As for inheritence law in our history, its really, really going to vary from place to place. And often be enforced via swordpoint. I dont see how Viserys/Jon's succession wouldnt end in a bloody civil war, if a bloody civil war hadnt just made them irrelevant.

Yes, the death of a king is big news, but these people were intentionally staying out of most news networks (castles with maesters, taverns,...) It's very likely it took the news some weeks to get to them. There is no modern messaging service in this world, no radio, no TV, not even regular newspapers.

[Nine of Spades]

Yes, the death of a king is big news, but these people were intentionally staying out of most news networks (castles with maesters, taverns,...) It's very likely it took the news some weeks to get to them. There is no modern messaging service in this world, no radio, no TV, not even regular newspapers.

Ned has to travel overland to find them, so its not like hes going to be getting there terribly soon either. All that needs to happen is for the news to hit a major trade hub, then every single traveler is going to be spreading that out. Unless the Tower of Joy is literally being run as a hermitage, its unlikely they have no exposure to the outside world. More likely one of the Kingsguard is regularly checking to find out news at local communities ingognito.

That is of course assuming that the tower of joy isnt attached to the raven network itself.

But even if they are unaware, that simply makes their continued presence at the Tower of Joy subject to ignorance, as opposed to a deliberate decision to protect the current King. For all we know their plan in this scenario is to kill Ned and friends, and take Lyanna to Viserys's court.

Again, my only point with regards to this is that rather then being proof of anything in particular, the presence of 3 kingsguard at the Tower of Joy asks questions that we dont have the answers to at this stage.

[The guy from the Vale]

Ned has to travel overland to find them, so its not like hes going to be getting there terribly soon either. All that needs to happen is for the news to hit a major trade hub, then every single traveler is going to be spreading that out. Unless the Tower of Joy is literally being run as a hermitage, its unlikely they have no exposure to the outside world. More likely one of the Kingsguard is regularly checking to find out news at local communities ingognito.

That is of course assuming that the tower of joy isnt attached to the raven network itself.

But even if they are unaware, that simply makes their continued presence at the Tower of Joy subject to ignorance, as opposed to a deliberate decision to protect the current King. For all we know their plan in this scenario is to kill Ned and friends, and take Lyanna to Viserys's court.

Again, my only point with regards to this is that rather then being proof of anything in particular, the presence of 3 kingsguard at the Tower of Joy asks questions that we dont have the answers to at this stage.

We know Jon was born within a month of the sack. GRRM told us so.

By the time Ned arrives (a week or two after Jon is born... and yes, that means he pretty much directly headed there after the Sack), the KG obviously know, but that means there's a window of time when Jon was born and the KG didn't know about the Sack yet. It's also possible, as I said above, that in the case of the possible birth of a heir to the throne, there's an interregnum until the child is born and its gender is certified. It certainly was that way in medieval Europe. Such things happened, for example after the death of king Louis X of France.

[MtnLion]

@tgftv, um, we know that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys. We know that Daenerys was conceived the day that the pyuromancer was made Hand. We know that the pyromancer was Hand for a fortnight before Jaime killed him. So, counting from the sack, we have at most two weeks before Jon is born, and Ned must arrive at the tower is less than 3.5 weeks, but within 5-10 days of Jon's birth.

[MtnLion]

Nope, no raven mail at the tower. It is an abandoned tower when Rhaegar occupies it, and he would not have motive to train ravens and transport them anywhere for raven mail during his tenure there. Remember that ravens are raised at their destination, then tranported to a location to be sent back with mail. There are probably occasional travellers going to or coming from Starfall that news can be obtained from, but at its freshest it is going to be two or so weeks old, and of questionable quality. If I had to rely on news of that type, I would want to hear exactly the same details from two different and unrelated sources.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I had a feeling someone will make me regret saying that. Fair enough, I will hand over the job of interpreting and translating the abstract part of the dream to you.

:o Don't regret it! I was (mostly) agreeing with you. You made a succinct summary of the factual takeaway.

I was just adding my two cents on the abstraction :rolleyes:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

more or less :ninja: 'd by Mtn Lion on timeframe and ravens.

I would add that if the KG heard about the death of Aerys (and Aegon) prior to Jon's birth the logical thing to do would be send one of their number posthaste to Dragonstone. The fact that they did not speaks volumes.

[Stann]

This is most likely the answer to the question of why use a dream sequence as a narrative device- there are some points the author wants to remain hidden, so he offers a dream which is a mixture of reality and symbolism.

I'm sure this is the reason and one that occurred to me. It just means you have to be damn sure of what is reality and what is symbolism, other than the blatantly obvious, if you're going to use this as evidence to support the theory postulated. I mean, it stands to reason this would be shrouded in mystery as the only other person to witness and live through these events is also shrouded in mystery in more ways than one.

[finger]

I was always firmly of the opinion that Brandon was the father of Ashara's child, until Mtn Lion got me on the fence with the Aerys possibility. Now I'm a waverer :P

I have a somewhat strange theory, that I've already told elsewhere. Ashara was a Dornishwoman, as welll as Elia, and she served as a lady with her. She also was sister to the best Raeghar's friend. She should be most familiar with Raeghar. Both of them are told to be most atractive, while Elia was sickly. Altogether, Ashara's chid was Raeghar's.

Moreover, Ashara didn't miscarry. Her son is YG. Too many babyswapping,... Real Aegon died in KL sack, whatever is being told by now.

Ashara (septa Melara?) flew with his son for the same reason that Ned was concealling Jon's real identity. When Ned came back to Starfall to take Jon, he told what happened to Raeghar's family, and the Daynes hid them with that story of miscarriage and suicide. That could explain the bad felling from Daynes to Lannisters.

Well, I can't know if it's true, but I find it more coherent than most other notions.

BTW. Aerys is rather Tyrion's father, isn't he? Well, that's more than enough to leave it to the proper thread.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm sure this is the reason and one that occurred to me. It just means you have to be damn sure of what is reality and what is symbolism, other than the blatantly obvious, if you're going to use this as evidence to support the theory postulated. I mean, it stands to reason this would be shrouded in mystery as the only other person to witness and live through these events is also shrouded in mystery in more ways than one.

Yes, but it seems like GRRM goes on to give us, in succeeding POVs, very strong hints that enable us to sift out the facts from the symbolism? Ultimately, yeah, it's all a mystery shrouded in an enigma. Our efforts at uncovering clues point us in a certain direction which, ultimately, brings it all back to the mysterious crannogman Howland Reed. :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I have a somewhat strange theory, that I've already told elsewhere. Ashara was a Dornishwoman, as welll as Elia, and she served as a lady with her. She also was sister to the best Raeghar's friend. She should be most familiar with Raeghar. Both of them are told to be most atractive, while Elia was sickly. Altogether, Ashara's chid was Raeghar's.

Moreover, Ashara didn't miscarry. Her son is YG. Too many babyswapping,... Real Aegon died in KL sack, whatever is being told by now.

Ashara (septa Melara?) flew with his son for the same reason that Ned was concealling Jon's real identity. When Ned came back to Starfall to take Jon, he told what happened to Raeghar's family, and the Daynes hid them with that story of miscarriage and suicide. That could explain the bad felling from Daynes to Lannisters.

Well, I can't know if it's true, but I find it more coherent than most other notions.

BTW. Aerys is rather Tyrion's father, isn't he? Well, that's more than enough to leave it to the proper thread.

That's no strange theory! We all happen to agree on one thing-- fAegon is a changeling, the son of Ashara Dayne. If Ashara Dayne is alive and Septa Lemore is more than she appears, Ashara is the most likely alter ego.

Where we (you, me, Mtn Lion and many others as well) diverge is on the identity of the father. I'd say your theory probably falls somewhere between Aerys and Brandon on the theory spectrum ;)

[Jon Icefyre]

I have a somewhat strange theory, that I've already told elsewhere. Ashara was a Dornishwoman, as welll as Elia, and she served as a lady with her. She also was sister to the best Raeghar's friend. She should be most familiar with Raeghar. Both of them are told to be most atractive, while Elia was sickly. Altogether, Ashara's chid was Raeghar's.

Moreover, Ashara didn't miscarry. Her son is YG. Too many babyswapping,... Real Aegon died in KL sack, whatever is being told by now.

Ashara (septa Melara?) flew with his son for the same reason that Ned was concealling Jon's real identity. When Ned came back to Starfall to take Jon, he told what happened to Raeghar's family, and the Daynes hid them with that story of miscarriage and suicide. That could explain the bad felling from Daynes to Lannisters.

Well, I can't know if it's true, but I find it more coherent than most other notions.

BTW. Aerys is rather Tyrion's father, isn't he? Well, that's more than enough to leave it to the proper thread.

The problem I have with this, is that this would mean Rhaegar had 4 children with three different women, and I'm sorry but I don't really see GRRM turning the story into 68 degrees of Rhaegar Targaryen. Rhaegar was not some man whore who was sleeping with three different women all around the same time. Also it's pretty clear from Dany's vision that after Elia only had two children Rhaegar wanted a third thus the whole "There must be one more the dragon has three heads speech." It was common knowledge to the realm that Ashara was pregnant and if Rhaegar was sleeping with her then i'm sure he would have assumed he was the father. So I don't really see the point of Rhaegar shacking up with Lyanna for almost a year at the TOJ doing god knows what if he already knew he had a third child on the way with Ashara. I understand you're theory and there might be something to it, but I think ppl should really use caution in not trying to connect Rhaegar to every pregnant noble lady during the time of the rebellion, once again the guy was not a man whore and I really don't see GRRM having Rhaegar play baby daddy to three different women. Also based on Ser Barristan's thoughts we know that the TOH was most likely the place where Ashara was impregnated, and Rhaegar seemed pretty busy admiring Lyanna Stark at that time so I don't really see any romance happening between he and Ashara. If Ashara's baby daddy was indeed a Targ then it was Aerys not Rhaegar....