[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

[David Selig]

Of course it adds something to Cat's character. Just read some non-reader reviews and you'll probably find a few that even whishes that this scene was in the last season so they could have had more sympathy for her when she released Jaime, because they felt that the scene put her in a new light (it for examples explains her scene with Jon for the first time). Adding more sympathy is also a pretty crucial thing to do to her in this season, for very obvious reasons to everyone reading a book spoiler thread. It might not add things that were in the book but that's a completely different thing.

I am frankly at a loss why this scene makes Catelyn looks more sympathetic. It's revealed she prayed for the death of a baby and later on didn't make good on a serious promise to the gods even though she's very religious. Yes, she feels bad about this now, but so what?

[DisraeliGears]

1) We already knew this

Helps to be reminded occasionally. When you consider the fact that (especially in the show) Cat is the only "good" mother figure we really see (and most of the parental figures are dead anyhow) it becomes very easy to forget about her dislike of Jon.

2) No it doesnt and it also isn't actually true.

That is one of the major currents of the speech as a whole. Basically Cat was lamenting that one reason for all this tragedy befalling her family is that she broke her oath to the gods to accept Jon. Cat is essentially saying that if accepting Jon as a Stark would bring back Ned, Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon, she'd do it and she regrets not doing so. Honestly it shows the motherly side of Cat more, willing to sacrifice her own feelings about Jon/Ned's infidelity to keep her family intact. Finally, it emphasizes Cat's losses so far. Cat was unwilling to love a "motherless child" but she can see soon that she may very well be a childless mother considering every Stark aside from Robb could be dead, and Robb has her locked up.

[3) What evidence of there is this? We know Sansa wouldn't call him her brother, he couldn't sit with the family at feasts, even his best friend Robb made it clear he wasn't a legitimate Stark. This is a totally false statement.

Not gonna get into this one, as Jon's bastard status does seem to be held against him numerous times

4) In the book she hates Jon for what he represents. In the show she tells him she wishes he was hurt instead of Bran and that she wished for him to die again as a young boy. It doesn't make her sympathetic at all. What does make her sympathetic in the books is how her love for Eddard and her family overshadows her opinion of who Jon is (a fine young man) because of what he represents and means to her and Eddard's relationship.

That is EXACTLY what this speech is supposed to emphasize. It just seems that people who interpret long fantasy novels can't interpret T.V. scenes. This whole speech was basically I love my family more than I hate Jon, and if I could go back and redo things I would.

Final comment about Cat. I hear a lot of complaining that she only thinks Bran/Rickon are dead instead of "knowing" it like the books, and how that damages her character. I can virtually promise you that she will find out about their "death" sometime in episode 5 or 6 probably. I'm sorry but every ep is gonna check in with Cat/Robb, and 7+ episodes of Cat moping over their death would be extremely tiring, which is why D&D are holding it back. Cat is going to lose EVERYTHING, and it will have more resonance if it happens closer to the RW.

[Tywin's bastard]

I am frankly at a loss why this scene makes Catelyn looks more sympathetic. It's revealed she prayed for the death of a baby and later on didn't make good on a serious promise to the gods even though she's very religious. Yes, she feels bad about this now, but so what?

It's sympathetic to show remorse over your flaws and mistakes, as well as it explains why she acted like she did earlier in the series. I can see why some people don't find it sympathetic but I have a hard time seeing how it's hard to understand that others do find it to be sympathetic.

[David Selig]

It's sympathetic to show remorse over your flaws and mistakes, as well as it explains why she acted like she did earlier in the series. I can see why some people don't find it sympathetic but I have a hard time seeing how it's hard to understand that others do find it to be sympathetic.

But it's more sympathetic not to have serious flaws and make serious mistakes than to feel regret over them, right? So logically if Cat never prayed for Jon's death and never broken her promise to the gods, she should'be more sympathetic.

[DisraeliGears]

I'm also surprised by the immense Shae hate I see here, because the actress really brings something to the role. Part of the problem I think people have with her is the odd cadence she uses, but it helps emphasize the exotic nature of Shae (and is probably part of the reason Tyrion falls for her). Unlike numerous other "foreign" characters who may as well be Westerosi in the show (Talisa or Thoros for example) there is a definite sense of otherness with Shae. In fact, comparing Shae with Talisa shows exactly why Shae is a good character in the show (while Talisa is one of the biggest mis-steps in the adaptation).

Basically, Shae and Talisa are flipped from the books. In the books Shae is a one-note gold digger who somehow takes in Tyrion, while in the show Talisa is a one-note romantic love character. In the books the Shae character detracts from Tyrion because A. He shouldn't fall for that kind of thing and B. Why does it affect him so much during Dance. I don't buy how hung up he is in the books over a gold-digger, but I DO buy him being so hung up over this Shae characters betrayal (however it happens).

On the other end of the spectrum, the Jeyne character adds to Robb in the book, showing he has the same flaw as his father (his honor). In the show however, her substitute (Talisa) really dumbs down his characterization into a simple doomed love story kind of thing.

I understand why D&D decided to emphasize Shae over Jeyne/Talisa (Tyrion is much more important long run than Robb basically, so if you have to pick which one is going to be more fleshed out, it ought to be Tyrion) but it still majorly damages Robb's character.

So can someone explain to me why the show Shae is so terrible aside from "bad acting"? The worst part about show Shae is that the actress doesn't sell her connection to Sansa all that well, but her connection with Tyrion is MUCH more important, and in that respect she does a fine job showing why she isn't just another whore to Tyrion.

But it's more sympathetic not to have serious flaws and make serious mistakes than to feel regret over them, right? So logically if Cat never prayed for Jon's death and never broken her promise to the gods, she should'be more sympathetic

Um no. Having no serious flaws makes your character alien and unrelatable. One crucial piece to being sympathetic is being human, and being human means making mistakes.

Edited April 8, 2013 by DisraeliGears

[bluemoon]

Brienne whooped Jaime's ass!

Long time since i read the books, wasnt it a tougher fight than what was shown?

[timstanton]

Long time since i read the books, wasnt it a tougher fight than what was shown?

yes, she received a pretty brutal cut on her thigh. i think in the episodes to come, as they become closer, she might reveal that the fight was tougher than what was shown, which is what was in the internal dialogue during the actual fight.

[Ser Farbod]

Long time since i read the books, wasnt it a tougher fight than what was shown?

Yes. Much tougher. The book lays it out as almost an even fight, slightly tilted toward Brienne, which causes Jamie to be impressed with her courage and forces him to look at her differently. The book also gives the impression that had Jamie been at 100% with full plate, he would have carved her in half.

The show on the other hand sort of hides the hindrance of Jamie's hands being shackled and the fight is much more brief and ends in Brienne tossing Jamie to the side like little boy. Jamie seems more amused than he should be and shows absolutely zero reaction to her skill or determination.

[pleonasm]

The problem with the Catelyn confession scene is three-fold:

1. Of all the things Catelyn should be feeling guilty about her issues with how she treated Jon are so low on the list of things that should even be crossing her mind. How about kidnapping Tyrion which triggered the Lannister action and subsequent war, abandoning her sons Bran and Rickon at Winterfell, letting her daughters go to and remain at Kings Landing despite some grave concerns she raised with Ned. If she was feeling bad about any of those things, I might have sympathy, not that she didn't treat her husband's basterd son well as a child.

2. She is confessing to Talisa of all people who I can't recall having a single real conversation with since Talisa and Robb's impromptu marriage.

3. The elephant in the room which is that she should be thinking Bran and Rickon are dead... now that's something you can feel all sorts of guilt over.

Edited April 8, 2013 by pleonasm

[BlueDragon]

yeah I'm not a fan of her but I still don't understand why they didn't have Rob marry Jeyne Westerling, I'm mean either way the betrothal to the Frey girl is totally f'd up now and it doesn't change the outcome for future events but this change never made sense to me, can someone explain it?

It gives Rob a longer love story line, so we can both see him in love and paired for a longer time, i.e. get vicarious thrills. She isn't just a pretty girl who Rob runs into; she is a sympathetic character who is helping men to survive their wounds. I don't think she is a spy or any such thing. If she survives the RW, she might play a role in the future which helps knit story lines together. I like both the character and Chaplin's grandaughter as an actress.

[pleonasm]

So can someone explain to me why the show Shae is so terrible aside from "bad acting"? The worst part about show Shae is that the actress doesn't sell her connection to Sansa all that well, but her connection with Tyrion is MUCH more important, and in that respect she does a fine job showing why she isn't just another whore to Tyrion.

The idea of creating a 'street smart' prostitute that might have more in common with Tyrion isn't on the surface a bad idea, but Shae on the show is a complete cipher. Even after 13+ episodes, do we have any single idea what motivates this character. Why does she care about Sansa? Why is she constantly putting herself at risk (helping Sansa, continuing to see Tyrion, etc...)? If she loves Tyrion --- why? What was that out of the blue sudden bout of jealousy she had. Which she promptly forgot and then gave Tyrion a blowjob. What the hell? That isn't a character, a human being, its a body filling up space and making noise.

You say she has a connection to Tyrion, what is the connection?She felt bad for how he was treated as a kid? We need something, anything, to understand where she is coming from.

The character is horribly underwritten. If Shae isn't the one-note gold digger, give us a scene, a line of dialouge, something that hints at her motivations, aspirations, or feelings. Of couse, that will require some acting and the actress isn't helping matters at all in that regard.

Edited April 8, 2013 by pleonasm

[timstanton]

as you can see, i dont come here often, but the whole Cat arguments have forced my hand! :laugh:. i will start by saying that my non book reading wife was sobbing during this scene and said it was one of the best the show has had so far. i liked the scene too, it was harder for me to not be annoyed by talisa (who i hate,) than to disagree with what cat was doing. I think sometimes, especially for someone like GRRM, the show is a chance to revisit things that he wrote years ago, maybe things he might have done differently. Maybe after years of Cat haters, he and the writers wanted her to come off as most sympathetic. I think people forget too often that this is someone who has lost almost everyone she loves and has also had to betray the only person she currently has, put yourself in her shoes. It was also important for me that she said she WANTED to like Jon, but ultimately couldn't, so it isnt as much of a departure as people are making it out to be. It is easy in the show to portray hatred with a simple grimace or look on ones face. In the book it goes into much more detail. With Cat not going to Riverrun earlier, we miss out on a lot of sympathy building as well. As a whole i loved this episode and liked this scene, I would rather have a Cat that at least tried to like a person as good as Jon Snow and is admitting her faults. That being said, Talisa is just walking around a war asking people..."derrrr...WHATS WRONG?!"

[Tywin's bastard]

But it's more sympathetic not to have serious flaws and make serious mistakes than to feel regret over them, right? So logically if Cat never prayed for Jon's death and never broken her promise to the gods, she should'be more sympathetic.

I can't give a simple answer to that because it's a subjective matter. I don't know how relevant it is either since she's already wished that Jon would be dying in the show. That part was nothing new, only the explanation and her regret.

But to answer personally, I'd say no. I'm far more intrigued by a character that has serious flaws as well as good sides. That really delves into her humanity and makes me feel for her more than if she didn't.

[timstanton]

The idea of creating a 'street smart' prostitute that might have more in common with Tyrion isn't on the surface a bad idea, but Shae on the show is a complete cipher. Even after 13+ episodes, do we have any single idea what motivates this character. Why does she care about Sansa? Why is she constantly putting herself at risk (helping Sansa, continuing to see Tyrion, etc...)? If she loves Tyrion --- why? What was that out of the blue sudden bout of jealousy she had. Which she promptly forgot and then gave Tyrion a blowjob. What the hell? That isn't a character, a human being, its a body filling up space and making noise.

You say she has a connection to Tyrion, what is the connection?She felt bad for how he was treated as a kid? We need something, anything, to understand where she is coming from.

The actress isn't helping matters at all, but regardless the character is horribly underwritten.

I have seen some people say that they think Tywin might hang Shae, which prompts Tyrion to kill him. After this episode, with the jealousy scene, im not so sure. If he doesnt find her in the bed and kill them both, I will break my TV, I need this character to be killed by Tyrion, she is an idiot. Yes, i am a sick person.

[BlueDragon]

The problem with the Catelyn confession scene is three-fold:

1. Of all the things Catelyn should be feeling guilty about her issues with how she treated Jon are so low on the list of things that should even be crossing her mind. How about kidnapping Tyrion which triggered the Lannister action and subsequent war, abandoning her sons Bran and Rickon at Winterfell, letting her daughters go to and remain at Kings Landing despite some grave concerns she raised with Ned. If she was feeling bad about any of those things, I might have sympathy, not that she didn't treat her husband's basterd son well as a child.

2. She is confessing to Talisa of all people who I can't recall having a single real conversation with their Robb's impromptu marriage.

3. The elephant in the room which is that she should be thinking Bran and Rickon are dead... now that's something you can feel all sorts of guilt over.

Actually, not so. She has done a lot of stupid things which have caused this war. The war is more on her than almost any other character and she did all this out of 'love for her children.' But she can't face that. Thousands are dying and many more thousands will die because of her impulsive decisions. It is easier for her to boil it all down to something simple like not loving Jon. I think this scene demonstrates how deluded Cat is about her role in the larger story. It also gives us a little insight into her interior battles re: Jon. People often think something relatively trivial they did is the cause for their tragedies when it was some other flaw which lead to the tragedy. This is because we can't see our true flaws most of the time. I do not think it makes sense to think she knows about Jon's true parentage. All of her other emotional conflicts don't make sense if that is the case. Ned kept the secret because too many lives were at stake had he not. Ned probably realized that Cat was as impulsive as we see her in the books when they were first married; therefore, he knew she couldn't be trusted to share the big secret. Jon's cover was strengthened by Cat's dislike of him.

[David Selig]

I can't give a simple answer to that because it's a subjective matter. I don't know how relevant it is either since she's already wished that Jon would be dying in the show. That part was nothing new, only the explanation and her regret.

When was that? IIRC "It should've been you" wasn't in the show.

But to answer personally, I'd say no. I'm far more intrigued by a character that has serious flaws as well as good sides. That really delves into her humanity and makes me feel for her more than if she didn't.

But this is about a character being interesting, not sympathetic. I can see the argument the scene makes cat more interesting, add depth to her character, etc. But more sympathetic - I don't see it.

[Tywin's bastard]

The problem with the Catelyn confession scene is three-fold:

1. Of all the things Catelyn should be feeling guilty about her issues with how she treated Jon are so low on the list of things that should even be crossing her mind. How about kidnapping Tyrion which triggered the Lannister action and subsequent war, abandoning her sons Bran and Rickon at Winterfell, letting her daughters go to and remain at Kings Landing despite some grave concerns she raised with Ned. If she was feeling bad about any of those things, I might have sympathy, not that she didn't treat her husband's basterd son well as a child.

2. She is confessing to Talisa of all people who I can't recall having a single real conversation with since Talisa and Robb's impromptu marriage.

3. The elephant in the room which is that she should be thinking Bran and Rickon are dead... now that's something you can feel all sorts of guilt over.

I don't think you understood the scene then. She feels that she violated something the way she acted with Jon (asking the gods to take his life, and then going back on a promise made to get him to survive) and that now she's being punished by the gods as a mother because that's how it relates to her "crime". It's not Jon she's sad for, she's sad for her shortcomings and what she thinks that might have brought (the death of many in her family).

Some things you mention also makes very little sense. She was basically forced to take some action against Tyrion, whom she thought had conspired to murder her son and might be a threat to her. Of course she would want justice for the attack on her son and that was always going to be met by hostility by the Lannisters. Bran and Rickon is probably something she regrets, although it's pointless since she wouldn't have changed anything. Leaving the girls at King's Landing was obviously the only choice. The whole point with her travelling in disguise is that no one could know that she was there warning Eddard (again affecting the Tyrion scene as well) because that would make it a huge risk of him being killed like Jon Arryn. Taking the girls was obviously impossible.

As for Talisa, at times people open up to people that don't know them too well. I've seen that happen.

When it comes to Bran and Rickon, why do you think she's sitting there creating that votive figure?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The idea of creating a 'street smart' prostitute that might have more in common with Tyrion isn't on the surface a bad idea, but Shae on the show is a complete cipher. Even after 13+ episodes, do we have any single idea what motivates this character. Why does she care about Sansa? Why is she constantly putting herself at risk (helping Sansa, continuing to see Tyrion, etc...)? If she loves Tyrion --- why? What was that out of the blue sudden bout of jealousy she had. Which she promptly forgot and then gave Tyrion a blowjob. What the hell? That isn't a character, a human being, its a body filling up space and making noise.

You say she has a connection to Tyrion, what is the connection?She felt bad for how he was treated as a kid? We need something, anything, to understand where she is coming from.

The character is horribly underwritten. If Shae isn't the one-note gold digger, give us a scene, a line of dialouge, something that hints at her motivations, aspirations, or feelings. Of couse, that will require some acting and the actress isn't helping matters at all in that regard.

How do you know all of her motivations won't be revealed in due time? I think he's meant to fool us as she's fooling Tyrion.

[pleonasm]

I think this scene demonstrates how deluded Cat is about her role in the larger story. It also gives us a little insight into her interior battles re: Jon. People often think something relatively trivial they did is the cause for their tragedies when it was some other flaw which lead to the tragedy. This is because we can't see our true flaws most of the time.

BlueDragon - That's a fascinating reading of the scene, I'm just not convinced that was the intent of the writer or showrunners. I can't offer much of arguement other than the fact they immediately cut to a scene with Jon Snow indicating her speech was to be taken at face value and to have written something for that purpose, would have taken subtely and sophistication thats rarely seen in the writing of this series.

Edited April 8, 2013 by pleonasm

[timstanton]

How do you know all of her motivations won't be revealed in due time? I think he's meant to fool us as she's fooling Tyrion.

i REALLY hope you are right.