Jon Snow and his NW vows

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

So I see a lot of people saying that if Jon is dead and then resurrected, he will be free of his vows to the nights watch. But is that the only way it can happen? Aemon could have left when KL was destroyed, and Jon basically had the option when Robb was marching off to war. It might be different now that he's the LC, but could he possibly appoint another one in his place? And at this point after he was nearly killed by the NW because they felt as though he was betraying them, kinda makes sense to appoint a new LC.

Also I remember in an interview with GRRM he said it was significant that Jon took his vows beyond the wall at the heart tree. I cant find it, but I'm almost positive he commented on this in response to Jon being able to leave the NW eventually.

I thought this was so that the Children of the Forest (and Bran) took note of it, and so that Jon (and Sam) could use the secret doorways in the Wall.

[Runaway Penguin]

Given that Robb's will and offer of 100 men for Jon did not raise an eyebrow among the Northerners present... I think there is a mechanism - maybe an archaic one. Perhaps the Watch changed drastically after the Conquest as a price for its existence and became the life-long prison we know? Perhaps before that, a lord can, for example, get his second/third son out to ensure continuation of the family, if he provided enough men in exchange?

After all the Black gate would seem to suggest, that original NW oath was shorter and without the sons, titles and lands bits...

[Stormcatcher]

I still find it odd that people think Jon would *want* to be free of his vows, even if being dead and resurrected technically freed him from them. He seems to be NW through and through, and I imagine he'd stick to the vows even if he didn't have to. Which he doesn't, really.

[MasterJack]

He killed Ygritte (well helped) for his vows, he is LC and has a wildling army to back him up. If he survive he wont leave the NW, only Robb's Will or the fall of the Wall could do it.

[Runaway Penguin]

He also broke the lesser wows (or the newer ones) to stick to the realms of men thing when he was with Ygritte. Halfhand quite emphatically built the case for "end justifies the means".

If Jon will be convinced best way to protect Realms of Men is to rule Winterfell, he will (even if like a Regent more likely than a Lord if he knows Rickon is alive). If he is convinced to protect realms of men he has t go for Iron Throne, he will...

[Direwolfsigil]

Nights watch pledge: "It will not end until my death"

Aemon Targaryen to Jon: "kill the boy and let the man be born."

combine with Mel taking an interest in Jon, the switching of rattleshirt and mance with her magic, and you have an explanation IMO.

these seem like subtleties, but to me they explain what happened.

of course when i was reading these events i was simply shocked, and not considering any of that stuff.

[House Of Wolves]

He also broke the lesser wows (or the newer ones) to stick to the realms of men thing when he was with Ygritte. Halfhand quite emphatically built the case for "end justifies the means".

If Jon will be convinced best way to protect Realms of Men is to rule Winterfell, he will (even if like a Regent more likely than a Lord if he knows Rickon is alive). If he is convinced to protect realms of men he has t go for Iron Throne, he will...

I couldn't agree more. there is a important passage where Jon thinks to himself " I am the shield that guards the realm of men and in the end that must be worth more then a mans honor ". Jon knows that the most important thing is to save the realm of men from the others and his other vows are nothing compared to that. if he thinks wearing a crown is the best way to accomplish this he will.

[IRON BANK]

I think after what happened the Night's Watch will be extinct, at least for some time. So basically everyone will be released from their vows.

I AGREE: the watch is over, and if you know the vows Jon watch has ended.

[IRON BANK]

I never understood this, so the NW was clearly fed up with Jon and attempt to assassinate him, I don't agree like most people that this was a small group, this was clearly a large part of the actual NW members (Non-Wildling), most of the people involved had a lot of decision making power. Depending on what happens, if anything the NW is probably falling appart, divided between Jon supporters and Non-Jon people.

Other options are they take back the NW for Jon (which is probably not likely) or else under the control of those who were against Jon. His body is being taken somewhere, he's been stabbed multiple times, he needs to be tended to, or else he's good as dead. If they bring him back and he just goes back to the way things were and is LC again, guarantee another attempt on his life. Its not safe for him to be around there, he's not going to stay at the Wall. Everything changed for him that moment that he was stabbed.

vows mean just about nothing at this point.

I AGREE: People on this board seem to be confusing this point all the time. Jon is LC of the NW his job is to protect the wall, and protecting the wall means aiding the realms of men. So after thousands of years after not being seen and almost forgot about, the NW finds out the white walkers are real. The wildlings find out the white walkers are real. The wildlings want to get past the wall on their terms, meaning destroying and pillaging the wall and the surronding areas. The NW, and stannis stop them make them pledge fealty and to help serve their cause. This fulfills both aspects of Jons vow he protects the wall and the realms of men. Later he is asked by stannis to become lord of WF and break his vows Jon declines. still keeping his oath. Boltons letter comes he says i'm going to attack the wall. What is Jon's job, to protect tthe wall. Did Jon send a letter to Bolton, No. Bolton wants to attack him. Jon is going to protect the wall thats his job is it not. When the OTHER MEMBERS OF THE NW STABBED JON THEY BROKE THIER VOWS. How, might you say for 1 the antagonists stabbed Jon because they didnt like the wildlings being on there side of the wall, doing this they are failing to prtect the realms of men , 2 they stabbed Jon because they falsely claim he is going to march on bolton when we know as the reader this is not the case(doing this they are failing to protec the wall, and have attacked another brother both crimes in the NW). This is the same group of people who already revolted against one LC and killed him and also might have Bolton and lannister sympathizers within the ranks. These men have broken their vows good sirs not the other way around. Jon can either keep the NW as LC and kill all these traitors or leave them behind because its a failing institution but in know way has Jon broken his vows.

[Septon Meribald]

I AGREE: People on this board seem to be confusing this point all the time. Jon is LC of the NW his job is to protect the wall, and protecting the wall means aiding the realms of men. So after thousands of years after not being seen and almost forgot about, the NW finds out the white walkers are real. The wildlings find out the white walkers are real. The wildlings want to get past the wall on their terms, meaning destroying and pillaging the wall and the surronding areas. The NW, and stannis stop them make them pledge fealty and to help serve their cause. This fulfills both aspects of Jons vow he protects the wall and the realms of men. Later he is asked by stannis to become lord of WF and break his vows Jon declines. still keeping his oath. Boltons letter comes he says i'm going to attack the wall. What is Jon's job, to protect tthe wall. Did Jon send a letter to Bolton, No. Bolton wants to attack him. Jon is going to protect the wall thats his job is it not. When the OTHER MEMBERS OF THE NW STABBED JON THEY BROKE THIER VOWS. How, might you say for 1 the antagonists stabbed Jon because they didnt like the wildlings being on there side of the wall, doing this they are failing to prtect the realms of men , 2 they stabbed Jon because they falsely claim he is going to march on bolton when we know as the reader this is not the case(doing this they are failing to protec the wall, and have attacked another brother both crimes in the NW). This is the same group of people who already revolted against one LC and killed him and also might have Bolton and lannister sympathizers within the ranks. These men have broken their vows good sirs not the other way around. Jon can either keep the NW as LC and kill all these traitors or leave them behind because its a failing institution but in know way has Jon broken his vows.

Have to agree with this. There are of course many that would say it's not an excuse, but sometimes all the vows of an office conflict with each other. Jon swore to protect the Wall and the Realms of men, he can't do that if he's dead, so given the choice between death for him and the Halfhand or killing a member of the Watch and living to fight he killed a brother. He was again given a choice of death or taking Ygritte as a companion, he decided defending men was more important than taking no wife. Jon's decision to march against Ramsay was the only way he could continue to protect the realms of men. He couldn't let Ramsay march on the Wall and destroy it, he couldn't simply give himself up as he was the only thing keeping the uneasy peace between the Watch, the wildlings and Stannis's men and obviously he had nothing else to offer Ramsay that would stop him. By stabbing Jon, the conspirators guaranteed a civil war all along the Wall that will threaten everything, they abandoned their cause, not Jon.

[leloup]

Hello everyone! long time lurker here,

I was thinking recently, when he says his vows for the watch he was Jon Snow Ned Stark's bastard...if/when he discovers his true identity he is no longer that dude

[Maegor the Cuddly]

I still find it odd that people think Jon would *want* to be free of his vows, even if being dead and resurrected technically freed him from them. He seems to be NW through and through, and I imagine he'd stick to the vows even if he didn't have to. Which he doesn't, really.

Exactly. Being dead and resurrected may free you from your vows, but not from your previous character development.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

And who would be that appropriate authority? You just said they could have, and I replied that it wouldn`t have been so easy. If Jon left the NW that night at GOT, he would have been hunted and possible executed.

Assuming the Watch would have dared execute the brother of the Lord of Winterfell... Which is plenty assuming.

Besides, the Watch betrayed him and backstabbed him: Even if he were to survive, with that breach of faith his watch is ended.

[Corvo Attano]

"For this night and all nights to come" is the final line of the oath. Ergo, being undead does not free you from your vows.

The Seventy Nine sentinels were sealed in the wall, so their watch would continue after they died. Even being perma-dead sometimes doesn't free you from your vows.

[Lion of Judah]

Jon will only be relieved of his vows when his watch is over, this maybe the case if he is in a comatose state and the NW elects a new Lord Commander. I don't think there has ever been precedent for such an action, but it is the most reasonable way I can think for Jon to untether himself from the NW.

[Mladen]

Assuming the Watch would have dared execute the brother of the Lord of Winterfell... Which is plenty assuming.

Besides, the Watch betrayed him and backstabbed him: Even if he were to survive, with that breach of faith his watch is ended.

Well, after taking the black, Jon stopped being Robb`s brother. And he is a bastard. Further more, Old Bear made it clear what fate deserters will meet on his watch.

As for Jon`s last chapter in DWD, NW didn`t betray him. They did what they believed was right. Never forget that Jon was planning to do something that is punishable by death. We may love him and cherish him for what he was planning to do, but it was betrayal in the eyes of NW. And I doubt that at the end, Jon won`t return to NW and claim his title of LC of NW. He wouldn`t escape his responsabilities due to technicality. That of course would happen, if NW survives the invasion of Others.

[JMJ]

There seems to be an assumption some are making here - that the NW is wed to the Wall and the North. Once the Others invade, which I think most of us see as highly likely, what's the point of the NW staying at the Wall or even the North? Certainly there's no point in staying north of the Wall. I think we will see Others far south, including King's Landing and beyond. This means the NW, in order to truly live up to their raison d'etre, will need to go where the Others go. Jon may or may not be part of the NW, but the NW will not be staying at the Wall.

I'll also add that I agree with other posters that getting off from the NW due to a technicality like having "died" is BS. That would be a lame out. In terms of Jon staying in vs. out of the NW, I imagine these possible scenarios:

- Jon's loyalists overthrow Bowen and co and restore Jon as full LC with authority

- The NW dissolves when the Others invade and there is utter chaos. No one is left as the NW

- Bowen and co. stay in control, elect their own LC (Aliser Thorne?) and kick Jon out of the NW. He is then free to take what he thinks is his path.My guess is something along the last option...

[Faint]

One has to separate the issue of whether Jon will uphold the essence of his vows in his heart and whether it is plausible he can actually continue to serve the Night's Watch in an official capacity in the aftermath of his assassination. They really are two different issues. He might want to continue in the Night's Watch, whether as Lord Commander or not, but that doesn't mean he gets to. Especially if he in any way resembles Beric Dondarrion or Victarion Greyjoy after they had their little brush with mortality.

[jons nissa]

No, they couldn`t. They would have become deserters and they would have been killed.

who would have killed the brother of the sitting king? aemon would have deserted, yes, but i believe the king would have decreed him pardoned. this was never done before as it isn't really the jurisdiction of the king but the targaryens seem to be good at establishing new precedents. probably has something to do with those dragons of theirs.

Most king's have the power to release a brother of the Nightswatch from his vows.

actually kings do not have the power to release a brother. or let's say it has never been done before. it is supposed to be free from the king's rule.

Hello everyone! long time lurker here,

I was thinking recently, when he says his vows for the watch he was Jon Snow Ned Stark's bastard...if/when he discovers his true identity he is no longer that dude

howdy! grrm was already asked this and said, no, there is no loophole for the fact that he said jon snow and is now jon targaryen.

my thoughts are jon will desert, plain and simple. he will decide it will further the purpose and he vowed to as a brother just as he did when he joined the wildings. i don't think it will be a trick.

[Mladen]

who would have killed the brother of the sitting king? aemon would have deserted, yes, but i believe the king would have decreed him pardoned. this was never done before as it isn't really the jurisdiction of the king but the targaryens seem to be good at establishing new precedents. probably has something to do with those dragons of theirs.

You all forget that Robb had no jurisdiction over NW. And more than that, you all forget that Robb wasn`t the King at the time. Jon ran away after Ned`s death but before Robb`s crowning. If they had hunt him and caught him, he would be dead, because he wouldn`t be anything more than a bastard brother of High Lord.