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Lord Barristan

(Book Spoilers) Does it feel a bit rushed to you?

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If they stopped making up scenes involving Cat they could probably fit in more Jaime and Brienne and Arya&Brotherhood/Arya/Hound story. But, they need to destroy Cat and create a larger role for Natalie Dormer, so...

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I don't know if this was supposed to be an answer to my post. I've seen you respond to people without quoting them when you're posting after them, but the post seems to not contain responses to a lot of what I wrote.

As for what you wrote here, I think you skip over a lot of important things that happen. Jon becoming Commander is not more relevant than that we learn that the Wildlings have united for fear of the White Walkers. Or that the White Walkers represent a threat that a big part of the Night's Watch was just slaughtered by them. We've also learned that the WW's aren't just killing everything, Jon will be learning new things, breaking new vows and viewers will wonder whether he'll be returning to the NW at all. Sam is shown to be the coward that will ultimately fail for the first time since first season, unless I forgot something in season 2. It's a natural set up for what's to come for him as he will prove himself later on.

If you haven't heard Edd say something that's not bad about Sam then you're not paying any attention. That could be a significant part in why you have trouble enjoying it. As for Joffrey, he is pretty much all about doing exactly what he wants because he's king in the novels. But still, apart from his sadistic and entitled side the show is showing us his fearful and insecure side as well.

And if you have such overly dramatic reactions like in your last sentence, I'm not really sure why you're watching. I'd never watch anything that I found to be that bad so I have a hard time relating.

I know that these scenes exist to give us information or set things up for coming events, and that is my entire issue. If you study screenwriting, you learn pretty early on that you want to avoid creating scenes that only exist to provide expositional dialogue. If a scene is there simply to feed us with information and keep the plot going, without being able to stand on its own as an interesting/emotional scene, the audience will get bored very quickly and stop caring about whatever you are trying to tell them. That is my issue with the Jon arc in the series and especially the scenes in this episode, they are just expositional dialogue there to tell us whats going on or in the case of Orell, teach us more about Warging. But the scenes themselves arent very interesting or engaging.

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I know that these scenes exist to give us information or set things up for coming events, and that is my entire issue. If you study screenwriting, you learn pretty early on that you want to avoid creating scenes that only exist to provide expositional dialogue. If a scene is there simply to feed us with information and keep the plot going, without being able to stand on its own as an interesting/emotional scene, the audience will get bored very quickly and stop caring about whatever you are trying to tell them. That is my issue with the Jon arc in the series and especially the scenes in this episode, they are just expositional dialogue there to tell us whats going on or in the case of Orell, teach us more about Warging. But the scenes themselves arent very interesting or engaging.

Obviously this show doesn't have big problems with keeping the interest of people, seeing how it's HBO's biggest success ever all things considered. On a personal note I'm never bored during the episodes either. If the characters are interesting, and the story they are involved in is compelling, then the scenes will work for me. That goes even more if it's a setting that I want to immerse myself in and delve deeper into. This is a matter of opinion so everyone can have their own, but I'd say that you're wrong if you're trying to make it into a general fact.

As for studying screenwriting, I've never really cared about formalizing writing. Tolkien did a ton of errors if you look at it from the normal rules of writing but yet his work has risen to great heights, even being the foundation for an entire modern genre. The same goes for a writer like Tarantino. He can have long scenes where his characters talk about nothing that's relevant to the plot at all, and I'm still completely engulfed by them (not every single movie he's made but his best work).

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If they stopped making up scenes involving Cat they could probably fit in more Jaime and Brienne and Arya&Brotherhood/Arya/Hound story. But, they need to destroy Cat and create a larger role for Natalie Dormer, so...

i will give the cat scene a pass since it was pretty engaging and well written in the context of the series, regardless if it contradicts book-cat or not. As for Natalie Dormer, she already plays a pretty imporant role in the story, and as a relativley new character i dont mind that she gets some screentime in order to introduce the character to the audience, wich i think they have done pretty well. We know that she is intelligent and knows how to play the game, wich builds up for tension between the tyrells and the lannisters. It would be more confusing if they kept her in the shadows with no real established personality.

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Unlike MOST story arcs in the show, rather.

ASoS is easily the fastest paced book in the series, by far. But to be fair, it's NOT the book's fault. It's the show's fault for being so fucking stupid in season two.

The only character who, IMO, "meandered" and was slow in the whole of the first three books was Arya in ASoS(her BWB chapters weren't anywhere nearly as rewarding as i'd hoped they'd be, and her non-red wedding chapters with Sandor were mih aside from the last one)

Even in AFfC/ADwD, the only characters who really feel to me as meandering and tiresome are Arya and Samwell. But, opinions.

1st of all, though I agree that ASOS is the fastest paced book, it certainly suffers in pacing for the first third, perhaps even half, of the book. It starts off slow, and it takes its time to get going.

Arya's plot meanders from the end of ACOk onwards. Dany's, I would argue for the whole of ACOK, and all of ADWD. ALL of AFFC is effectively meandering, except for the Kings Landing arc, and even that could have used some editing. Brienne's for the entirety of AFFC.

Frankly I find it astonishing that you would admonish a 10 episode series for meandering, and then with the same breath defend the pacing and plotting of AFFC/ADWD, which imo are pretty indefensible.

I agree with you that season 2 of the show was as a whole, terrible. And that it is in large part due to poor writing choices. However, so far, the 3rd season, what we can judge of it from 2 episodes, has been a pleasant surprise. Some wasted scenes here and there (Tyrion/Shae), but nothing too egregious, and certainly nothing that would have me screaming waste of time.

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As for studying screenwriting, I've never really cared about formalizing writing. Tolkien did a ton of errors if you look at it from the normal rules of writing but yet his work has risen to great heights, even being the foundation for an entire modern genre. The same goes for a writer like Tarantino. He can have long scenes where his characters talk about nothing that's relevant to the plot at all, and I'm still completely engulfed by them (not every single movie he's made but his best work).

the first part is obviously down to personal opinion, but this part made me feel like you missed my point entierly. I never said story exposition in general is a bad thing, the point is that you need to keep the pacing, dialogue and characters in the scene interesting while feeding the audience with information, otherwise it just becomes flat expositional dialogue, with no other purpose than to keep the plot going. Tarantino is a pretty bad example if youre trying to argue with this point, since most of his movies are almost entierly character-driven and the story usualy takes a backseat to the well written characters and dialogues. Most of his storys are pretty simple and require almost no exposition at all. He is a perfect example of a director who knows how to almost skip expositional dialogue completley.

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For those interested(Maester Ruin, Tywin's Bastard, anyone else) I made a super long post at the very end of the second page responding to many different posters in the thread. So if you didn't see that, you should definitely read it, cause that post took a bit to write out. Thanks!

1st of all, though I agree that ASOS is the fastest paced book, it certainly suffers in pacing for the first third, perhaps even half, of the book. It starts off slow, and it takes its time to get going.

All the books start slow. But I disagree, all of ASoS is quite fast paced. It just doesn't FEEL that way since it takes place over such a long period of time in-story and since it's the longest book. AGoT and ACoK both took 200 pages to suck me in, AFfC and ADwD both probably took me 300-400 pages to get drawn in. ASoS? I was drawn in by the end of the fucking prologue.

Arya's plot meanders from the end of ACOk onwards. Dany's, I would argue for the whole of ACOK, and all of ADWD. ALL of AFFC is effectively meandering, except for the Kings Landing arc, and even that could have used some editing. Brienne's for the entirety of AFFC.

Disagree with AFfC, as you'll see below. I think EVERY Arya chapter in A Clash of Kings is great. Actually, the tragic thing about Arya, is I find all her chapters in AGoT, ASoS, AFfC and ADwD to be all quite boring and skipworthy... yet EVERY chapter of hers in A Clash of Kings is absolutely gorgeous and amazing. As for Dany in ACoK, it really wasn't that boring. And for only five chapters, A LOT of important character and prophecy development occurred. As for ADwD Dany, it's entertaining at least.

Frankly I find it astonishing that you would admonish a 10 episode series for meandering, and then with the same breath defend the pacing and plotting of AFFC/ADWD, which imo are pretty indefensible.

Eh, I would rearrange all the chapters. Make all the Jaime/Cersei/Vic/Asha/Areo chapters appear in Fest, and whatnot. Make it so not a single POV character overlapped between the two books. And made more references and whatnot to the plotlines of the other book, without going into detail, creating mystery.

But when it comes to pacing of chapters and plots and all that stuff? Eh. I found those Aeron and very first Asha chapter obnoxious, as well as the Arya, Bran and nearly every Samwell chapters.

But everyone else? Vic, post-first chapter Asha, Quentyn, Barristan, Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, etc. were all brilliant.

Particularly Brienne. I think Septon Meribald's speech in that Brienne chapter may just be my favorite page in ALL of A Song of Ice & Fire.

I agree with you that season 2 of the show was as a whole, terrible. And that it is in large part due to poor writing choices. However, so far, the 3rd season, what we can judge of it from 2 episodes, has been a pleasant surprise. Some wasted scenes here and there (Tyrion/Shae), but nothing too egregious, and certainly nothing that would have me screaming waste of time.

Agreed, I suppose.

I never said story exposition in general is a bad thing, the point is that you need to keep the pacing, dialogue and characters in the scene interesting while feeding the audience with information, otherwise it just becomes flat expositional dialogue, with no other purpose than to keep the plot going.

This. SO MUCH in the first season was expository, but had lots of other brilliance and emotional/world building/character building importance to them. The second season and third season thus far is JUST the exposition without the other parts.

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It's not the violence or the climax that's important. It's the suspense of "WHO IS WHERE? WITH WHOM? WHERE ARE THEY MOVING NEXT? WILL THEY WIN? OH, WHAT HAPPENS NOW THAT THE IRONMEN ARE ATTACKING THE NORTH? OH, I WONDER IF DORNE WILL SIDE WITH RENLY OR WHAT. Etc."

I find anything militaristic and strategic in the books to be the most SUSPENSEFUL aspect of the entire series, and even if we only learn a few details about specific battles, I have enough imagination to make it even better in my own mind than reading about it. Except when necessary, like the Blackwater and the NW battles.

That's just like, my opinion though. If a show ENTIRELY centered around a story about war being horrible and pointless decides to complete bypass everything, you know, war in exchange for soap opera Tyrion-and-Shae, Robb-and-Whatsherface, Ros-and-Littlefinger scenes then I guess the show just never understood the books to begin with.

Of course it will be a bigger sense of lacking in the show if that's your favorite parts of the books. Personally I think the story is all about the characters and that the overall story is just background for them to develop in. I of course enjoy a lot of facets of the books and I think everyone can decide for themselves what the books are about.

To be fair, those scenes were rather long and dreary and were just Jaime japping around. Also, lol @ some random villager having seen Jaime Lannister before AND running into Locke AND knowing where Jaime was exactly. Just all around LOL to that whole thing.

Every Jaime Lannister scene from season two was awful though. Great acting and such, just terrible writing.

That's pretty much exactly what it was in the books, but longer. Their conversations tell you a lot about the characters as well so there's a lot going on unless you can't sit still during the parts without action.

As for your comments about the villager, I don't see the strange part at all. If you're a party out searching for someone you will of course ask everyone you meet if they've seen who you're looking for. Locke will of course have figured out which areas they will most likely travel through and because he is in the area it's not completely unlikely that he'll run into a villager that isn't hiding from them, who could tell you where he saw them and in which direction they were travelling at the time. Why do you think that the villager knew exactly where they were? That seems like a pretty dumb conclusion to draw instead of that Locke, Bolton's best tracker, used his information to find them.

What do you think would have made more sense? That Locke actually was tracking their footprints? That it's more likely that he runs into the two that's trying to hide from armed men than a villager? I find no other option more likely (some about equal) but they don't necessarily present any moral choices like this one did.

Really? From a scene transition standpoint, it really feels like there's no flow in season two(or three) to me. But when it comes to like, the scenes themselves, in the first season every episode had it's own ark for select scenes by a certain character. Second/third seasons there's no in-episode ark, it's just random scenes.

From both a cinematic standpoint, and a plot standpoint, I see no way it flows better now.

Yes, really. Not much to say if you don't even remember the most obvious ones like how season 2 used the comet to bring a more coherent line between the different places. I also think that more scenes get the time to breathe after the first season, and this is despite that I think the first season is better than the second. That goes mainly because I think the story in the first is better and more easily told, but I think the craftsmanship in the second beats the first pretty clearly.

These are all wishful thinking. Obviously what's done is done, and obviously it wasn't my show. But still, I can dream. As for the nudity... there's DEFINITELY more of it in the show than in all five of the books put together. As to the descriptiveness, you're right, some of the sex scenes are definitely more vivid than what's shown in the show - but with text comes metaphors, symbolism, insight into characters thoughts, etc. so sex scenes(whether tragic, horrifying or lovely) can all be quite beautiful in their own way. Sex scenes in TV or film can be as well, but I don't believe there has been a single nudity scene in the show thus far that I consider artistic. Except perhaps Theon on the boat with the wench, that scene was brilliantly done and well acted, and gave us a good insight into Theon. And an excellent parallel, as he gets bitched slapped around for the rest of the season.

We can dream but I don't really see the point of dragging up impossible dreams in discussions. Seems like a road to nowhere.

As for the sex scenes there has hardly been any in two seasons that were to just show sex/two people wanting each other (as many movies and shows do). Nearly all scenes with nudity in GoT were about something completely different. Some people aren't comfortable with nudity so they can get jarred out of what the scene is really about but for me that was never a problem. Hence that the show gave birth to the term sexposition, because it was never about the sex.

I'm just basing this all off my roomies who only watched the show, haven't rewatched the show since last year and haven't read the books. (well, one read the first 400 pages of AGoT and got bored and stopped, but he doesn't count)

People just don't understand who is who, what is what as easily as people who've watched the show multiple times through thus far and read the books. Hell, it wasn't until I was at the very end of season two before I realized who Roose Bolton was in the show. I just thought it was some nameless general.

Naturally not all people will be able to keep up, something that also goes for the books. I don't see it as a general problem with that the show doesn't tell us things though, I just think that the show assumes that the audience can think and forces them to make a bit of an effort to get everything. It should be an aspect you like since you felt that it was dumbed down with the strategic things.

As for Roose Bolton they both name him and he has his sigil on his armor so I think the show presented him well, especially as he wasn't very important that season.

Wasn't David behind both Wolverine and The Last Stand? Wolverine was decent, but really not worth the watch, and The Last Stand was fucking atrocious in about a million different ways.

I could be misremembering though, I don't know much about what went on to make those movies and whatnot other than that Hugh Jackson is a beast.

No, he hasn't had anything to do with the X-Men series. I don't remember where I read that his script was changed very significantly by others before being used but I've seen it at a few places. As for the movies I liked The Last Stand more than Wolverine. Neither was very good but I enjoyed some parts of TLS (mainly Ian McKellen as Magneto).

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This. SO MUCH in the first season was expository, but had lots of other brilliance and emotional/world building/character building importance to them. The second season and third season thus far is JUST the exposition without the other parts.

I agree about season 1, but i do think Season 2 had some engaging scenes, the scenes between cerscei and tyrion were very well acted and had some emotional depth to them, and i thought theons face-off with Balon ("you gave me away, remember? the day you bent the knee to robert baratheon, after he crushed you. Did he take what was yours then?") was intense and had a lot of things going on emotionally. but the rest of the arcs where pretty bland yeah, especially Robbs.

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the first part is obviously down to personal opinion, but this part made me feel like you missed my point entierly. I never said story exposition in general is a bad thing, the point is that you need to keep the pacing, dialogue and characters in the scene interesting while feeding the audience with information, otherwise it just becomes flat expositional dialogue, with no other purpose than to keep the plot going. Tarantino is a pretty bad example if youre trying to argue with this point, since most of his movies are almost entierly character-driven and the story usualy takes a backseat to the well written characters and dialogues. Most of his storys are pretty simple and require almost no exposition at all. He is a perfect example of a director who knows how to almost skip expositional dialogue completley.

But you're again dragging it into the realm of personal opinion. Of course things need to be interesting, that kind of says itself, but what's interesting is subjective. I've referred to both my own opinion and the success of the show to establish that there's no base for talking about the show not making it's exposition interesting as a general opinion.

As for Tarantino I mentioned him because he's gotten a good deal of criticism for having long scenes that doesn't lead anywhere and drag down the pace of the story. In the same manner that's not seldom what he gets a ton of praise for from those that like what he does. As for him not having much exposition, I don't see why exposition would be worse than talking about "nothing".

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Long post.

You and I disagree wildly regarding the books, so diametric are our opinions that I doubt we could ever reach a middle ground. But since all opinions are subjective, I'm quite happy to leave it at that.

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Hey guys,

Storm of Swords is one of my favorite books of all-time and when they said they would be splitting it into two season, I thought for certain this would mean they would fit more in.

I've heard millions of people say this including GRRM himself. It's wishful thinking that next season will only cover 300 pages of SoS. While season one, two and three covered ~800 pages. I hope next season doesn't try to slow down that much.

My favorite storyline in the book is by far Jaime's. In the book, he and Brienne have 3 full chapter- which a pretty long at that- before they are captured by Lord Vargo. In this season, we were given one scene- that was masterful- and the duel, that was underwhelming. Why not flesh out these two before being captured? I know they had some scenes at the end of last season, but I feel shortchanged on the best duo in the series.

So you realize that the first chapter or two of Jaime's was covered the first two seasons of the show right?

I also love Arya and the Brotherhood without banners. I knwo we can't expect them to cast all the member of the brotherhood, but I really wish they would have kept around Tom O'Sevens AND Thoros. Greenbeard, Lem, the Huntsman and some of the others may have been too much, but certainly Harwin being a Winterfell man should have been included.

And they have already captured the Hound! This takes fairly later in Arya's journey. I hope we get to see more of the brotherhood!

Bards are a dime a dozen. Why cast an actor for a minor role this season and one that happens way down the road? I'll take more Hound over Harwin who does nothing but capture her because he's a better horse rider than Arya.

Anyone that knows Arya can identify her, why is she got to be betrayed by someone from Winterfell that she knows be so important?

Arya has 9 chapters in SoS before the RW. All these chapters take place over weeks and often multiple locations like Acorn hill, high heart, lady of leaves place, etc. I'd expect some of her story to have to be cut if she's going to do the "important" stuff in her arc.

i will give the cat scene a pass since it was pretty engaging and well written in the context of the series, regardless if it contradicts book-cat or not. As for Natalie Dormer, she already plays a pretty imporant role in the story, and as a relativley new character i dont mind that she gets some screentime in order to introduce the character to the audience, wich i think they have done pretty well. We know that she is intelligent and knows how to play the game, wich builds up for tension between the tyrells and the lannisters. It would be more confusing if they kept her in the shadows with no real established personality.

Contradicts her character? No. Contradicts Catelyn's history in the books? Yes. Her prayers to the gods concerning Jon Snow would've gone unanswered or we would've probably heard about this in a Cat POV in the books. Much of the history of people has been altered or rewritten it's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last.

We get nothing between Joffrey and Margaery in the books and we only hear about PR stuff in third person, all of it was going on though, right?

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I've heard millions of people say this including GRRM himself. It's wishful thinking that next season will only cover 300 pages of SoS. While season one, two and three covered ~800 pages. I hope next season doesn't try to slow down that much.

So you realize that the first chapter or two of Jaime's was covered the first two seasons of the show right?

Bards are a dime a dozen. Why cast an actor for a minor role this season and one that happens way down the road? I'll take more Hound over Harwin who does nothing but capture her because he's a better horse rider than Arya.

Anyone that knows Arya can identify her, why is she got to be betrayed by someone from Winterfell that she knows be so important?

Arya has 9 chapters in SoS before the RW. All these chapters take place over weeks and often multiple locations like Acorn hill, high heart, lady of leaves place, etc. I'd expect some of her story to have to be cut if she's going to do the "important" stuff in her arc.

Contradicts her character? No. Contradicts Catelyn's history in the books? Yes. Her prayers to the gods concerning Jon Snow would've gone unanswered or we would've probably heard about this in a Cat POV in the books. Much of the history of people has been altered or rewritten it's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last.

We get nothing between Joffrey and Margaery in the books and we only hear about PR stuff in third person, all of it was going on though, right?

But the series doesnt follow the strict "POV" narrative of the books. She is still a pretty central character in the story (even if we only see her through other characters eyes in the books) so it makes sense to give her a proper introduction. If we were to follow the strict narratives from the books, we would have missed out on a ton of great scenes.

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Of course it will be a bigger sense of lacking in the show if that's your favorite parts of the books. Personally I think the story is all about the characters and that the overall story is just background for them to develop in. I of course enjoy a lot of facets of the books and I think everyone can decide for themselves what the books are about.

The show guts everything military, they gut more or less ALL sense of what the commoners and soldiers are dealing with, it guts all prophecies, it alters nearly every damn character, it omits major plot points and Game players and historical details, etc, etc.

The only thing the show goes all out on is terrible soap opera romance(which NOBODY likes) and shitloads of nudity for shtis and giggles, which most people disapprove of at least SOME of.

As for your comments about the villager, I don't see the strange part at all. If you're a party out searching for someone you will of course ask everyone you meet if they've seen who you're looking for. Locke will of course have figured out which areas they will most likely travel through and because he is in the area it's not completely unlikely that he'll run into a villager that isn't hiding from them, who could tell you where he saw them and in which direction they were travelling at the time. Why do you think that the villager knew exactly where they were? That seems like a pretty dumb conclusion to draw instead of that Locke, Bolton's best tracker, used his information to find them.

Showing Brienne this way was kind of weird though. They had NO PROBLEM with Brienne slaying two of Renly's guards, and random Northern men(despite her never killing anyone yet at this point in the series) YET she was willing to let a villager live despite her oaths and the dangers? The show has depicted Bri one way, then turned back and painted her the original way.

It's contradictary and frustrating. The villager dilema i'd like more if Brienne was obviously against killing and such in the show too. *shrug*

What do you think would have made more sense? That Locke actually was tracking their footprints? That it's more likely that he runs into the two that's trying to hide from armed men than a villager? I find no other option more likely (some about equal) but they don't necessarily present any moral choices like this one did.

I actually wish it was the way it was. Tywin's former bannerman run into them by chance, Jaime is CONVINCED he's saved, only to be absolutely DEVASTED when he was so wrong and when he loses his arm.

Being hunted is kind of lolzie since it's a whole continent and all, and while their destination is obviously south, they(Locke) have no idea how they're going to get there.

Yes, really. Not much to say if you don't even remember the most obvious ones like how season 2 used the comet to bring a more coherent line between the different places. I also think that more scenes get the time to breathe after the first season, and this is despite that I think the first season is better than the second. That goes mainly because I think the story in the first is better and more easily told, but I think the craftsmanship in the second beats the first pretty clearly.

I actually found the Red Commet to be horribly jarring and vastly no where nearly as cool or creative as it was in the book. I appreciate what they were trying, but... eh.

I don't know what you mean by giving scenes time to breath though. MUCH shorter scenes, in a spuratic order and moving at a super lightning face pace for no reason and not focusing on individual characters undermine the whole experience. That last bit is something YOU should appreciate particularly, since you like characters.

We can dream but I don't really see the point of dragging up impossible dreams in discussions. Seems like a road to nowhere.

Some people like hypothetical situations. Especially myself, since i'm an aspiring author and screenwriter and I like to think about what I do/don't like in stories, what I would've done different if I could, etc.

It is a road to no where, but it's a good way to examine whether or not a story ACTUALLY makes sense or not, and good practice for storycrafting in your head.

As for the sex scenes there has hardly been any in two seasons that were to just show sex/two people wanting each other (as many movies and shows do). Nearly all scenes with nudity in GoT were about something completely different. Some people aren't comfortable with nudity so they can get jarred out of what the scene is really about but for me that was never a problem. Hence that the show gave birth to the term sexposition, because it was never about the sex.

it was about tits and pointless exposition together as one. In some cases, it worked, like with the Tyrion intro scene in the absolute first episode or in Visery's tub scene. Most of the time, it was terrible. Particularly awful was Littlefinger's storytime to two lesbians.

Naturally not all people will be able to keep up, something that also goes for the books. I don't see it as a general problem with that the show doesn't tell us things though, I just think that the show assumes that the audience can think and forces them to make a bit of an effort to get everything. It should be an aspect you like since you felt that it was dumbed down with the strategic things.

I would like it if this is the way it was OUTSIDE of the fact that it results in the show making it seem like there's a major war going on and that everyone's sitting around doing nothing.

As for Roose Bolton they both name him and he has his sigil on his armor so I think the show presented him well, especially as he wasn't very important that season.

None of my room mates know his name, his sigil or what where his seat is located. It's obvious for book readers, but nonreaders don't have any fucking clue.

No, he hasn't had anything to do with the X-Men series. I don't remember where I read that his script was changed very significantly by others before being used but I've seen it at a few places. As for the movies I liked The Last Stand more than Wolverine. Neither was very good but I enjoyed some parts of TLS (mainly Ian McKellen as Magneto).

Didn't really enjoy much of either, but the acting in Wolverine was very good. The Last Stand was an all around joke. Making Rogue give up her powers, really? Ugh, that's just the peak of my disgust with that movie. Which is hilarious, since X-Men United and First Class were fucking BRILLIANT.

But yeah, don't really know much about David's involvement with the X-Men movies other than that he was involved somehow.

Anyone that knows Arya can identify her, why is she got to be betrayed by someone from Winterfell that she knows be so important?

Arya has 9 chapters in SoS before the RW. All these chapters take place over weeks and often multiple locations like Acorn hill, high heart, lady of leaves place, etc. I'd expect some of her story to have to be cut if she's going to do the "important" stuff in her arc.

All this. Exactly. Besides introducing Arya early and getting the duel done nice and early, it means Sandor can disappear for a few episodes after next episode before returning. Whereas in the book he returned the very next chapter. All around agree with this creative choice.

As for MEL? I'll have to see how they handle this before making an opinion.

You and I disagree wildly regarding the books, so diametric are our opinions that I doubt we could ever reach a middle ground. But since all opinions are subjective, I'm quite happy to leave it at that.

Fair enough. haha

But the series doesnt follow the strict "POV" narrative of the books. She is still a pretty central character in the story (even if we only see her through other characters eyes in the books) so it makes sense to give her a proper introduction. If we were to follow the strict narratives from the books, we would have missed out on a ton of great scenes.

Eh, only a handful of great scenes.

I agree about season 1, but i do think Season 2 had some engaging scenes, the scenes between cerscei and tyrion were very well acted and had some emotional depth to them, and i thought theons face-off with Balon ("you gave me away, remember? the day you bent the knee to robert baratheon, after he crushed you. Did he take what was yours then?") was intense and had a lot of things going on emotionally. but the rest of the arcs where pretty bland yeah, especially Robbs.

Well those scenes weren't exposition specifically, they were all plot moving on. Cersei/Tyrion's dance and Theon being treated like a bitch? Not expository scenes, but mandatory for the plot.

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So much of the boring exposition is based around the past, and could be scrapped if the writers changed their idiotic "no flashbacks" policy. The reason people use flashbacks in movies or TV-series to begin with is that its much more interesting for the audience to watch something happen first hand in a flashback, than to listen to someone re-tell the same story in a monologue. Even the books use flashbacks as a narrative tool for gods sake.

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I think that the action is being rushed, with the result that much of the essential information is omitted, thus causing the action to be a bit "all over the place". Some of the additions I liked (Margaery and Joff with the cross bow - loved how she played him), but not the bit with Tyrion and Shae or the bit with Cat and Talisa (definitely two of my least favority characters).

Liked the way they handled Jojen and Meera's introduction - thought they quickly and succinctly provided much needed material (even a great set-up for later on via the Rebellion discussion).

BUT thought that Arya's scenes were rushed, and I really, really hope they don't do that with the Arya/Sandor scenes!!! Or with the rest of the Jaime/Brienne scenes.

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The show guts everything military, they gut more or less ALL sense of what the commoners and soldiers are dealing with, it guts all prophecies, it alters nearly every damn character, it omits major plot points and Game players and historical details, etc, etc.

The only thing the show goes all out on is terrible soap opera romance(which NOBODY likes) and shitloads of nudity for shtis and giggles, which most people disapprove of at least SOME of.

And yet this is one of the more faithful adaptations I've seen when taken into context how extremely difficult this story is to translate into a different medium. A lot of complaints seem to rely very much on unrealistic expectations and being too attached to the original work and it's always a shame to foil yourself. I absolutely love the book series but I've felt it natural not to expect too much from an adaptation since even simple stories are never as good as a good book in my view.

As for the specifics, it feels pretty natural to not focus that much on what happens to those that aren't important characters when they don't have even remotely enough time to spend on those do show what's in the books. The story needs to be abbreviated, which at some times mean shortening things and at other times removing things entirely. As for prophecies we've already been told that they are pushed closer to when they matter but they will still be in (although I'm guessing not all of them, of course).

Your last sentence reminds me that you seem pretty inclined to write your opinions as if they were facts, which they are not.

Showing Brienne this way was kind of weird though. They had NO PROBLEM with Brienne slaying two of Renly's guards, and random Northern men(despite her never killing anyone yet at this point in the show) YET she was willing to let a villager live despite her oaths and the dangers? The show has depicted Bri one way, then turned back and painted her the original way.

It's contradictary and frustrating. The villager dilema i'd like more if Brienne was obviously against killing and such in the show too. *shrug*

So you mean that it's strange that she's willing to kill men that are actively trying to kill her (after trying to avoid it first, when it comes to the northmen) but that she isn't willing to kill someone for just walking by and being nice? I don't see any contradiction or lack of logic here. In fact I'd say that most humans would be willing to fight for their lives but not be willing to murder someone in cold blood.

I actually wish it was the way it was. Tywin's former bannerman run into them by chance, Jaime is CONVINCED he's saved, only to be absolutely DEVASTED when he was so wrong and when he loses his arm.

Being hunted is kind of lolzie since it's a whole continent and all, and while their destination is obviously south, they(Locke) have no idea how they're going to get there.

Again we reach the point of pretty irrelevant wishes. They aren't going to spend the time showing a sellsword company to establish them and how they are switching sides, so that part just never had any real chance of happening.

Why would being hunted be strange? They know where they are going and they know what paths are the most probable (making the argument that there's a whole continent pretty moot), they can travel a lot faster and they can ask people who might have seen them. It's not an easy task but a lot stranger things and coincidences happen in this story.

I actually found the Red Commet to be horribly jarring and vastly no where nearly as cool or creative as it was in the book. I appreciate what they were trying, but... eh.

I don't know what you mean by giving scenes time to breath though. MUCH shorter scenes, in a spuratic order and moving at a super lightning face pace for no reason and not focusing on individual characters undermine the whole experience. That last bit is something YOU should appreciate particularly, since you like characters.

I don't think we'll come any closer on this point. As I said, it was common to see reviews talking about the better flow and coherence of the second season so it's been noted by a lot of people. If you didn't like it that's just how it is as it's about taste.

Some people like hypothetical situations. Especially myself, since i'm an aspiring author and screenwriter and I like to think about what I do/don't like in stories, what I would've done different if I could, etc.

It is a road to no where, but it's a good way to examine whether or not a story ACTUALLY makes sense or not, and good practice for storycrafting in your head.

There's nothing bad about it in itself, I just don't think it adds anything to the discussion about what's actually in there.

I don't agree with the second sentence though. Comparing it to the book doesn't show anything in particular about making sense, the scenes must be taken into the context of what the show has told us.

it was about tits and pointless exposition together as one. In some cases, it worked, like with the Tyrion intro scene in the absolute first episode or in Visery's tub scene. Most of the time, it was terrible. Particularly awful was Littlefinger's storytime to two lesbians.

Again a matter of opinion and I disagree. But of course nudity is used deliberately, as everything else that's shown. Watching True Blood made me realize even more how little GoT sex scenes try to arouse the viewer in comparison. There's a show that really shows sex for the sole purpose of showing sex.

I would like it if this is the way it was OUTSIDE of the fact that it results in the show making it seem like there's a major war going on and that everyone's sitting around doing nothing.

That's not the impression I'm getting.

None of my room mates know his name, his sigil or what where his seat is located. It's obvious for book readers, but nonreaders don't have any fucking clue.

I wrote about Roose because you said that you didn't figure out who he was until late in the season. I just showed that the information was there. And you shouldn't be lumping all non-readers into the same category. I know a couple who got his name and understood that he was a bannerman to Robb. It's not easy to get since there's a ton of information coming in a steady stream, but it's not the same thing as to say that no one has a clue about who he is.

Didn't really enjoy much of either, but the acting in Wolverine was very good. The Last Stand was an all around joke. Making Rogue give up her powers, really? Ugh, that's just the peak of my disgust with that movie. Which is hilarious, since X-Men United and First Class were fucking BRILLIANT.

But yeah, don't really know much about David's involvement with the X-Men movies other than that he was involved somehow.

I think killing Xavier was far worse than the Rogue thing. At least parts of he hate her powers, while the other thing was just killing one of the best acted characters. I agree that X-Men 2 and First Class were really good. Magneto is one of the best acted characters in superhero movies, despite being portrayed by two different people.

It's a bit fun that David is somewhat known as a writer for Wolverine and Troy, and from what I've heard both of those scripts were altered quite a bit by others before used, and in both cases the rumors seem to be that it was for the worse (likely due to the studio demanding things).

As a final note I do get a bit surprised that you're still watching the show, since you seem to mainly have gripes with it and you use quite strong language to describe those so they seem to be really significant. I'm not telling you what to do or anything, I just personally don't think it seems really worth it to watch something that actively annoys me. There can of course also just be a difference in focus between you and me. I don't like everything on the show either, but I tend to focus mostly on what I do like since that kind of thinking makes it easier to be entertained.

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So much of the boring exposition is based around the past, and could be scrapped if the writers changed their idiotic "no flashbacks" policy. The reason people use flashbacks in movies or TV-series to begin with is that its much more interesting for the audience to watch something happen first hand in a flashback, than to listen to someone re-tell the same story in a monologue. Even the books use flashbacks as a narrative tool for gods sake.

Not even necessarily flashback scenes. Just occasional dreams(from NOT Bran) and a much better House of the Undying, and more elaboration on some historical details, would've been enough.

And yet this is one of the more faithful adaptations I've seen when taken into context how extremely difficult this story is to translate into a different medium.

Which, realistically, isn't something positive about Game of Thrones. What this actually is is a negative towards nearly all adaptions out there.

The goal of adapting something into a different medium, or remaking something, should be to provide something enjoyable and artistic and EXPAND on the original universe. Not condense it and chop away the meat on the bones which makes the plot and characters work.

A lot of complaints seem to rely very much on unrealistic expectations and being too attached to the original work and it's always a shame to foil yourself. I absolutely love the book series but I've felt it natural not to expect too much from an adaptation since even simple stories are never as good as a good book in my view.

I wouldn't say i'm too attached to the original books specifically, hell, there are loads that if I was GRRM I myself would've done differently. *shrugs*

As for the specifics, it feels pretty natural to not focus that much on what happens to those that aren't important characters when they don't have even remotely enough time to spend on those do show what's in the books. The story needs to be abbreviated, which at some times mean shortening things and at other times removing things entirely. As for prophecies we've already been told that they are pushed closer to when they matter but they will still be in (although I'm guessing not all of them, of course).

lol @ Prophecies in the show. ZOMG SEA'S COMING TO WASH US AWAY, next episode, THEON. Smooth show, almost fooled me...

Your last sentence reminds me that you seem pretty inclined to write your opinions as if they were facts, which they are not.

Oh not true at all. While I do think it is near factual that everyone is disgusted by the existence of Ros, and nearly every littlefinger brothel scene, doesn't mean I consider anything i'm saying as factual. It's all subjective and hypothetical and all that.

So you mean that it's strange that she's willing to kill men that are actively trying to kill her (after trying to avoid it first, when it comes to the northmen) but that she isn't willing to kill someone for just walking by and being nice? I don't see any contradiction or lack of logic here. In fact I'd say that most humans would be willing to fight for their lives but not be willing to murder someone in cold blood.

In the book, she avoided to kill Renly's guards or anyone who came after her post-leaving Riverrun. I swear, people who make TV shows need to go watch Trigun, Rurouni Kenshin, Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Alchemist, Kaiji, Monster and all the other anime out there that taught little kid me that murder and violence is NEVER right and that there's always another option. In live action television? Everyone killing everyone, no remorse or fucks given.

But yeah, a BIG thing about Brienne is her insecurities and fear of not being able to take another human's life. It's a pretty big deal. And yes, for all intents and purposes, killing a "peaceful man" is the same as killing armed assailants because either way you risk your life ending because of it.

Again we reach the point of pretty irrelevant wishes. They aren't going to spend the time showing a sellsword company to establish them and how they are switching sides, so that part just never had any real chance of happening.

It could've happened if they had more episodes, did Roose Bolton/Ramsay correctly, did Arya correct, etc. But yeah, I see your point,

Why would being hunted be strange? They know where they are going and they know what paths are the most probable (making the argument that there's a whole continent pretty moot), they can travel a lot faster and they can ask people who might have seen them. It's not an easy task but a lot stranger things and coincidences happen in this story.

Jaime and Brienne just left Riverrun. While there are select paths they were likely to take, and their ultimate destination could be Casterly Rock, could be Highgarden or could be King's Landing. There's simply too many fucking directions from Riverrun they could've went in, so one hunting party? And happening to track them down? Hilariously unbelievable.

I don't think we'll come any closer on this point. As I said, it was common to see reviews talking about the better flow and coherence of the second season so it's been noted by a lot of people. If you didn't like it that's just how it is as it's about taste.

I just don't see the appeal of shorter scenes, no in-episode arks with most characters and randomized scene changing.

I don't agree with the second sentence though. Comparing it to the book doesn't show anything in particular about making sense, the scenes must be taken into the context of what the show has told us.

And even IN context, many scenes simply don't make sense. Everything Samwell hasn't been making sense, the Battle of Blackwater makes ZERO sense, Littlefinger's jetpack from place to place makes no sense, EVERYTHING Dany makes no sense, etc.

Again a matter of opinion and I disagree. But of course nudity is used deliberately, as everything else that's shown. Watching True Blood made me realize even more how little GoT sex scenes try to arouse the viewer in comparison. There's a show that really shows sex for the sole purpose of showing sex.

And the scene of Theon fucking a chick, followed by ittlefinger watching like half a dozen whores in his house all naked, followed by his 'I destroy my bad whores" speech...? Used deliberately? Yeah deliberately for tit value and shock value. Ugh,

And just because something uses something more, doesn't make the comparison better. Would a band that used way too many technical wankery guitar solos suddenly become more bearable when compared to another band with even more wankish guitar solos? I suppose, but the illusion people create is largely a lie

I wrote about Roose because you said that you didn't figure out who he was until late in the season. I just showed that the information was there. And you shouldn't be lumping all non-readers into the same category. I know a couple who got his name and understood that he was a bannerman to Robb. It's not easy to get since there's a ton of information coming in a steady stream, but it's not the same thing as to say that no one has a clue about who he is.

A lot of people I know don't know who he is, and it's really only on here where i've seen people be like "LOL SO ROOSE BOLTON".

While I guess he's shown as kind of Robb's number 2, the audience hasn't really ENTIRELY connected the dotes yet or accepted him Robb's right hand. So it's particularly awkward that he'll be betraying Robb..

I think killing Xavier was far worse than the Rogue thing. At least parts of he hate her powers, while the other thing was just killing one of the best acted characters. I agree that X-Men 2 and First Class were really good. Magneto is one of the best acted characters in superhero movies, despite being portrayed by two different people.

Yeah, the actors for Magneto were brilliant. Pretty much everything Last Stand was horrid. Killing off Scott. I mean, DA FUCK MOVIES.

It's a bit fun that David is somewhat known as a writer for Wolverine and Troy, and from what I've heard both of those scripts were altered quite a bit by others before used, and in both cases the rumors seem to be that it was for the worse (likely due to the studio demanding things).

Shit happens.

As a final note I do get a bit surprised that you're still watching the show, since you seem to mainly have gripes with it and you use quite strong language to describe those so they seem to be really significant. I'm not telling you what to do or anything, I just personally don't think it seems really worth it to watch something that actively annoys me. There can of course also just be a difference in focus between you and me. I don't like everything on the show either, but I tend to focus mostly on what I do like since that kind of thinking makes it easier to be entertained.

Oh don't get me wrong, I fucking LOVE tearing things apart. I do this with the books too. Only the difference there is I just disagree with single choices and whatnot and agree with the vast majority of the book, whereas I only approve of select pieces of the show. I am mainly hoping that season 3 will turn out awesome and blow me away and make me forget the abysmal rendition of my favorite ASOIAF book A Clash of Kings.

And a lot of the acting, locations and soundtracks of seasons 2/3 are brilliant enough to bypass horrible plot butcherings, as long as everything is handled correct. haha

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It could've happened if they had more episodes, did Roose Bolton/Ramsay correctly, did Arya correct, etc. But yeah, I see your point,

i have to point out that the scenes between arya and tywin were simply brilliant, one of the better changes/devations the show has made. The acting was wonderful (Williams and Dance are two of my favourites and to put them togheter was amazing) and it felt like the audience got to know Tywin (who, lets face it, was a much more important character than Roose at the time) and they even managed to squeeze in a little bit about his childhood and Tythos without making it feel like forced exposition. It was one of the highpoints of the season in my opinion

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