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BananaSpice

[Book Spoilers] Do you think the show still stands on its own?

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If someone is willing to get lost in this world, the medium doesn't really matter. To be honest, the books are really demanding and the show simply follows suit.

That's why I don't understand why many posters here think the show should follow the books even more. They're doing an amazing job as it is! Sure, the show is condensed here and there but the basic premise of multiple disconnected storylines (intriguing in their own right) is kept intact. Whether that approach will keep viewers' attention is a different question. I predict that the show will start losing viewers, simply because it collapses under its own weight.

Just look at the critics; basically, most agree that the strenghth of the show(epic scope) is also its biggest weakness.

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If someone is willing to get lost in this world, the medium doesn't really matter. To be honest, the books are really demanding and the show simply follows suit.

That's why I don't understand why many posters here think the show should follow the books even more. They're doing an amazing job as it is! Sure, the show is condensed here and there but the basic premise of multiple disconnected storylines (intriguing in their own right) is kept intact. Whether that approach will keep viewers' attention is a different question. I predict that the show will start losing viewers, simply because it collapses under its own weight.

Just look at the critics; basically, most agree that the strenghth of the show(epic scope) is also its biggest weakness.

The books are not really demanding.

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Regarding people who choose not to read the books... I did that through seasons 1 and 2. I'm a fantasy reader, but I'd somehow missed GRRM and found it really refreshing to see a show through it's own eyes without preconceived notions from having read the book. I got to put away the ever-present critic and just go along for the ride.

For season 1, that was great. By the end of season 2, I was feeling irked by the things I didn't know, so I started reading. Unfortunately, that means I've lost the "fresh/new" approach, but I don't regret lifting the veil... I was already struggling increasingly to understand character's motivations...

And the theon stuff is new to me.... having not yet read past AFFC.

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And based on my own experience, to the extent that the show has increasing trouble carrying it's own weight, to some degree, it will mean more and more of us on the readers forums!

(I do hope the show will bear out to the end though... it would be very disappointing if it got dropped prior to completion. For that matter, I hope GRRM has the rest of the series drafted by this point, of he's going to have a hard time staying ahead of the show...)

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The books are not really demanding.

over 4000 pages with 1000s of named characters to remember, and over 10 POV characters as of now spanning two continents. Yeah, the books are pretty demanding.

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I know many non-readers (including my wife) who find the show fantastic. Of course they don't undestand everything but they really don't need to.

The only question I have been asked (several times) is "Why did Winterfell burned ?" and of course it is one of the only things which is more complex in the show than in the books !

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over 4000 pages with 1000s of named characters to remember, and over 10 POV characters as of now spanning two continents. Yeah, the books are pretty demanding.

I'm sorry, but it's really not that demanding.

Lots of characters, lots of plots, lots of symbolism, etc. but the writing itself is forward and straight to the point, the dialogue is all as simple and concise as can be, the messages and tone of each chapter is clear and plot twists are presented in a believable and not complicated way.

I'm sorry, but as huge as the ASOIAF world and it's characters are, these are some of the easiest books i've ever read in terms of how smooth flowing and easy-to-understand they are. Honestly, if someone can read on a ninth grade level and remember key names(or know how to use the appendix), then these books should be no problem to any teenager or adult.

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The books are not really demanding.

I guess this depends on what you mean. Just getting through the book and having grasped the overall story likely isn't that hard for most people (you do hear from people that stop reading because there's too many characters from time to time though). Then again I don't know if there are that many books where it's hard to get through it if you don't feel the need to get the symbolism or other complexities.

To know all the characters, to have gotten and understood all subtle hints regarding mysteries, prophecies etc and so on is pretty hard though and unless you did all that on your first read, on your own, then I wouldn't go saying that it's not demanding. Can you say you've really gotten the books without getting all of that? Without getting Jon's parentage while reading the first time, without seeing how Mirri Maz Duur's words seemingly have gone from elaborate description to perhaps involuntary prophecy as soon as it started to come true etc. I don't know if you can say that (and tons of people don't get that right away, most not even until they start discussing the books).

Perhaps you can say that if you have any ambition as a reader it gets more demanding.

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I'm sorry, but it's really not that demanding.

Lots of characters, lots of plots, lots of symbolism, etc. but the writing itself is forward and straight to the point, the dialogue is all as simple and concise as can be, the messages and tone of each chapter is clear and plot twists are presented in a believable and not complicated way.

I'm sorry, but as huge as the ASOIAF world and it's characters are, these are some of the easiest books i've ever read in terms of how smooth flowing and easy-to-understand they are. Honestly, if someone can read on a ninth grade level and remember key names(or know how to use the appendix), then these books should be no problem to any teenager or adult.

You're judging it by different standards than I intended (quality instead of quantity). I'm not saying asoiaf is a literary masterpiece with innovative prose and philosophical meaning. It's just extremely expansive and, as a whole, requires a considerable (time) investment by its readers. The fact that you think the use of an appendix is 'normal' already proves this. An appendix exists because the sheer amount of information is too much to remember.

But I agree that within the asoiaf world the individual narratives are easy to follow. The writing itself is pretty straightforward.

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You're judging it by different standards than I intended (quality instead of quantity). I'm not saying asoiaf is a literary masterpiece with innovative prose and philosophical meaning. It's just extremely expansive and, as a whole, requires a considerable (time) investment by its readers. The fact that you think the use of an appendix is 'normal' already proves this. An appendix exists because the sheer amount of information is too much to remember.

But I agree that within the asoiaf world the individual narratives are easy to follow. The writing itself is pretty straightforward.

Oh okay then, I misunderstood what you were saying originally then.

I know various people who refuse to read the books, but watch the show, refuse to read the books because "MAN THAT SHIT SOUNDS LIKE IT'D BE SO HARD, I COULD BARELY GET THROUGH FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING MAN" and I think it's a misconception amongst show-only fans that since the universe and it's characters are all complicated as fuck, that obviously that means the writing is hard to follow and filled with big words and stuff like that.

But when it comes to the size of the world. I really guess it depends on whether or not you can get into this. I wouldn't say the ASOIAF world is any more or any less difficult to grasp than say... the Millennium series(Girl with the Dragon Tattoo) or the Bourne Identity trilogy or Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas. *shrugs* it's all about what fantasy settings individual people are easy at grasping, I know personally, I can't really grasp ANY sci-fi space-exploration esque fantasy unless it's in an anime format(Trigun, Cowboy Bebop) because I just... can't sit down and read those kinds of books, or find any enjoyment in Star Wars or Star Trek, etc.

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More or less. I know a couple of people who REALLY enjoy it without having read the books, but I'm not sure I would.

Then again, if I had zero idea about what went down in the novels (and the changes made to them), I'd probably appreciate the show more.

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I read all the books and I would have to agree with those who say it's a little demanding. I've read A LOT of books, but these were definitely the most challenging. The length doesn't bother me at all, the longer the better in my eyes! But the number of characters, and the fact that GRRM can get TOO descriptive at times (I don't want to read pages and pages of how a castle looks) can be slightly overwhelming. Also, I did struggle with some chapters, like Bran, Sansa (only in book 4), and Brienne, because I felt like I was waiting for something to happen. They are great books, they're actually my favorite, but I doubt I will be rereading them anytime soon, except for a DwD because I flew through that and feel as if I missed some things.

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It's a good show. Though I don't think it's anywhere near as good as some critics are making it out to be. Depending on how well they pull off season 3, my opinion may very well change. Judging from the first two episodes, though, I doubt it.

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To be honest, the books are really demanding...

The books are not at all demanding.

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I believe it depends on the person, and how much effort they put into it. If they rewatch and rewatch, sure. But I have a friend who does not rewatch and he has me explain things to him every week. He gets it once I remind him of certain characters, though.

It's just a lot of detail-- much more than the average television show has. Some can follow this, some cannot.

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The books are not at all demanding.

I actually think they are, but I'm not a reader so that could be why. Other than Harry Potter, ASOIAF are the only books I've read for pleasure. I didn't understand a lot of it after my first read. I couldn't keep track of the houses and their loyalties, the history, the names, the places, all of that. On the re-read everything made more sense. But they were hard for me to get through the first time around, and I definitely needed help from towerofthehand and the wiki.

Detail-oriented people and people who are good with names can pick stuff up on the first time, I'm sure. But I couldn't, and a lot of my friends who plan on reading the series probably won't finish it or they will be needing a lot of help to get through it. I've never before heard someone who has finished the series say it's "not at all demanding". This series takes effort. I believe for 99% of people this book is, at the very least, a little demanding.

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Regarding people who choose not to read the books... I did that through seasons 1 and 2. I'm a fantasy reader, but I'd somehow missed GRRM and found it really refreshing to see a show through it's own eyes without preconceived notions from having read the book. I got to put away the ever-present critic and just go along for the ride.

For season 1, that was great. By the end of season 2, I was feeling irked by the things I didn't know, so I started reading. Unfortunately, that means I've lost the "fresh/new" approach, but I don't regret lifting the veil... I was already struggling increasingly to understand character's motivations...

And the theon stuff is new to me.... having not yet read past AFFC.

Yeah. I always wonder if I want the book to spoil a movie for me or not, or how the experience would be different for me if I had not read the book first. One of the only movie-book combos where I read the book after seeing the movie was The Count of Monte Cristo and I really liked both of them. But they are very different after the first half or so.

I often wonder what I would think of the show if I had not been reading the books for over 10 years.

I read all the books and I would have to agree with those who say it's a little demanding. I've read A LOT of books, but these were definitely the most challenging. The length doesn't bother me at all, the longer the better in my eyes! But the number of characters, and the fact that GRRM can get TOO descriptive at times (I don't want to read pages and pages of how a castle looks) can be slightly overwhelming. Also, I did struggle with some chapters, like Bran, Sansa (only in book 4), and Brienne, because I felt like I was waiting for something to happen. They are great books, they're actually my favorite, but I doubt I will be rereading them anytime soon, except for a DwD because I flew through that and feel as if I missed some things.

I don't know if anyone said it was a "little demanding." Some said it was really demanding and another defended that statement. That is what I disagreed with. It is probably a "little demanding" due to the amount of characters and story lines going on at once. I do not think that the foreshadowing, prophesying, subtleties, or other interesting and complex elements really make it more demanding because someone can immensely enjoy the books without being able to decipher any of that. They may make a reader appreciate the books more though, even if you don't figure everything out on your own.

So, I would stick to my original statement that they are not really demanding.

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