The Drunkard Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't agree...The Boltons and Freys tried to wipe out a house. It would be viewed as justice in westorosi society to meet out a similar fate. I don't think its similar at all to the situation with the rains We know there are innocent Freys, though, that didn't have anything to do with the RW and were specifically sent away because they would have revealed the plot. Killing them just to send a message does seem like a very Tywin thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Like countless warlords and mass murders or just the average joe these next ring true the ends justify the means. Does that make it right or even a nice thought no. Yet some times the ends really do justify the means. There were innocent men at the RW that had nothing to do with Robb and him marrying Jeyne. Their only crime they were guilty of was being loyal to Robb. So where is the justice for them. Is not the blood of the innocent compensation. Rheagar's children's only crime was being Elia's instead of being Cersi's. Yet one was stabbed half a hundred times and the other was missing the top part of his fucking head. Where is the justice? The man that order their deaths helped his daughter places her ill gotten bastards on a throne they had no right to over their cold mutilated bodies. So don't Tommen and Marcyella deserve no less to pay for the crimes of their grandfather. They are lions after all they must pay their debts. Tywin Lannister rooted out not one ancient house but two because he deemed them disloyal. What about all the innocents that died for the crime of having that last name or being related to someone of that name. Don't their shades deserve a taste of lannister blood for the lannister vengeance that was pored onto them? I know a lot of my last thoughts were ugly and hideous too think about but Tywin and his whole brood are a curse on the realm. They need to go and their whole family to pay for the sins of their lord. As for the Boltons and Freys they too need to be removed. They are a stain of the fabric of the human tapestry. They are all that is wrong with society. As to anyone that says there are innocent Freys are delusional. If they were innocent then they would have been removed from the festivities. So Walda Frey is guilty along with the rest. Remember what frey said about the condition at twins on learns to trust only their full born siblings and them only so far. That when their father died it was going to be every man or woman for themselves. That all the freys would be picking sides between Black Walder and the other one can't remember there name. As to Roose as of right now his heir is Ramsay. The north knows what that one is, they would probably prefer Jon Snow to Ramsay. With him in the lead Roose only has one choice as I see it either remove the Bastard(Ramsay)himself like he hinted to Theon or have someone else take Ramsay out so that way men can't claim him a kin slayer. Appearances are very important to Roose. So I see that as his option. Then there is Walda's son or daughter that his a hybrid of both these bad blood families. And someone wants to make him or her a ward of winterfell. Throw that cursed baby down a well or make it an offering to the Others and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 We know there are innocent Freys, though, that didn't have anything to do with the RW and were specifically sent away because they would have revealed the plot. Killing them just to send a message does seem like a very Tywin thing to do. Yeah, the whole House certainly wasn't involved in the RW. It speaks for itself, Walder only kept the full details to those he trusted the most. So punishing those who had nothing to do with that crime is just cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah, the whole House certainly wasn't involved in the RW. It speaks for itself, Walder only kept the full details to those he trusted the most. So punishing those who had nothing to do with that crime is just cruel.It is very cruel to kill everybody but what is Westeros if anything but cruel?I say "kill them all and let the gods sort them out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Amen to Wolves thank you thank you thank you. That's they same way I feel. The sins of the father and all that jazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sertravisredbeard Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Seeing as how Jaime has lost a hand, along with the idea that he and Cersei will be together forever, I think he's punished enough. Cersei still some punishment coming, but I'm pretty sure that will happen. I always thought the main culprits against the Starks were Tywin and Joffrey. Along with those two, Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane are both dead or dead-ish. As long as Gregor dies for good and Cersei continues to be punished humiliatingly, I think the two families are even. But I'm a Jaime apologist, and Tyrion always seemed kind of sympathetic to me also. Sansa will also probably speak on Tyrion's behalf when all the chips are out. He repeatedly refused to rape her, for which he gets points. The ones who needed punishment have been punished, and I'm happy with Tyrion and Jon making amends between the two families in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north of the wall Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't see how killing the frey's and bolton's makes them even with the lannisters. But i also don't think they really need to be even. To live happily ever after would be a good revenge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It will not be enough. Until the Lannisters are removed this cycle will not be complete they wil just scheme and plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It is very cruel to kill everybody but what is Westeros if anything but cruel?I say "kill them all and let the gods sort them out"Well at least the Starks could try and aim for the moral high ground. Rather than killing them all just throw them out of the Twins and let them try and fend for themselves, that would be punishment enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belisarius09 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 No, because the Boltons and Freys wronged the Starks and their actions don't wipe the slate clean. The Lannisters still wronged the Starks first. The Starks need to/deserve to get even with all three houses, each for their own crimes. As Stannis said "The good does not wipe out the bad, nor the bad the good." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Well at least the Starks could try and aim for the moral high ground. Rather than killing them all just throw them out of the Twins and let them try and fend for themselves, that would be punishment enough. Fuck the moral high ground the Lannisters lost the moral high ground road when they through their support behind the RW. I say feed them to the otherand the them sorth it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salinda Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Don't really see how they tried to "wipe out" a house. They were removing Starks from power, but not eliminating them completely. Sansa was still alive, that's common knowledge. Roose and Walder would have known that. Plus, they were eliminating people associated with the war, not innocent women, children etc. I've seen many saying they want Houses Frey, Lannister and Bolton slaughtered root and stem. There are a few Lannister children and dozens of Freys that have nothing to do with their relative's misdeeds. So I'd say rooting for their extinction is something that a man like Tywin would approve of. Sansa was still alive, yet married to Tyrion Lannister as Roose knew. Her children would have the surname Lannister. House Stark would die with Sansa under the normal conditions they anticipated. Karstarks would probably rule the North if the Lannister regime fell afterwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miryana Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I find it amazing how there are so many Stark fans that are so Tywin-esque with how they want the "enemy" houses dealt with. It's probably the result of all the arguments about why the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons were justified in everything they did and the Starks are equally, or in fact more to blame for what was done to them. If it is indeed alright, it should work both ways and the Starks should also be able to butcher scores of innocents without being judged for it - for them it would still at least be option #2, not option #1 like for their enemies. I don't expect the Starks to actually do anything like that, but it would be a double standard if they were judged for it more harshly than someone like Tywin (who often gets a total pass for Castamere because Machiavelli) or the twins (who don't care how many people have to die for them to get the sex/power/titles they want). Also, it should make a difference that the Lannisters were "honest enemies". They were fighting an openly declared war against House Stark, brought about in large part by the Starks themselves. They didn't violate any trust or obligations to the Starks because there was never any to begin with. In wars like that, vengeance has to be put aside eventually or else it causes undue suffering. If Jaime hadn't tried to kill the child of his host when he was caught committing treason while a guest of the Starks (and if he and Cersei had let Robert have a trueborn heir Ned would have felt obliged to support), there would have been no reason for Catelyn to arrest Tyrion, so I can't see how the Starks brought it on themselves just by refusing to think that whoever tried to murder their child in their home must have had the right to do so and shouldn't be investigated. "I let you through my doors = you don't try to kill my child" may not be stated but it's pretty much assumed and Jaime violated that trust. The twins were anything but honest in their usurpation of the throne and their efforts to get rid of their enemies through murders and abuses of the law. The Lannisters have shown no compassion, no forgiveness and no willingness to negotiate, and any that they might end up getting from the Starks in return is a gift, not something they would be entitled to after their total disinterest in the suffering of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Seeing as how Jaime has lost a hand, along with the idea that he and Cersei will be together forever, I think he's punished enough. Cersei still some punishment coming, but I'm pretty sure that will happen. I always thought the main culprits against the Starks were Tywin and Joffrey. Along with those two, Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane are both dead or dead-ish. As long as Gregor dies for good and Cersei continues to be punished humiliatingly, I think the two families are even. But I'm a Jaime apologist, and Tyrion always seemed kind of sympathetic to me also. Sansa will also probably speak on Tyrion's behalf when all the chips are out. He repeatedly refused to rape her, for which he gets points. The ones who needed punishment have been punished, and I'm happy with Tyrion and Jon making amends between the two families in the future. My sense as well. Cersei must be stopped of course not just as a matter of vengeance but for public safety-as long as she's alive she keeps doing damage to people. I have nothing against Tommen and Myrcella though and would prefer they live-I just don't think they should get the IT. Ramsay, of course must die-he's a sick, serial killer, and his crimes are beyond counting. Roose isn't as depraved, and I enjoy him as a character, but nevertheless it will be a better world once he's gone and House Bolton is extinguished. I spare innocent Frey's like those who weren't at the RW, or Roslin, but everyone who *was* involved in it is going down. Period. And they cannot keep Riverrun. Hell, I don't even think they should be allowed to keep the Twins. Interestingly, though, is how often the guilty parties here aren't being directly punished by the Starks-(except Lady SH the zombie,) but more seem to be getting into trouble because of their own actions, and the events they set in motion. They're not being punished for their crimes but by them-and by being such awful people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logodnica Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 ...snip..... As to whether the Starks should be satisfied with Boltons and Frey. No and No, no, no, no, no. The Frey/Bolton baby if of bad blood, doubly cursed on both sides I say kill it or send it over seas. Don't keep that thing in your home and raise it as your own. ...snip.... Mr. Bell, my thoughts exactly. Having a Frey/Tully baby inherit Riverrun because it is loved by its parents, is EXACTLY the sort of nuanced writing and realistic character development that makes GRRM one of the best. Yes it would be horrible for the River Lords to one day bend the knee in Riverrun to a child that is half- Frey. “The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slender Aimry Hill Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 It is very cruel to kill everybody but what is Westeros if anything but cruel?I say "kill them all and let the gods sort them out" you're aware of who you're quoting here? Not a nice man - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 There can be only one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lointain Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If the real world if a Royal family/leaders allowed his country to be ravaged and lead his army to a disastrous war where the majority of his men died there would not be a rush to reinstate them. Well said. But we are talking of the North in ASOIAF. Some northern nobles want to reinstate the Starks, because the other noble houses in the North that could take the overlordship and the wardenship of the North are even worse than the Starks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Well said. But we are talking of the North in ASOIAF. Some northern nobles want to reinstate the Starks, because the other noble houses in the North that could take the overlordship and the wardenship of the North are even worse than the Starks... Yeah, I mean look at it from the viewpoint of the Northern Lords-would you ever be willing to accept House Frayed Man as your liege?!? Especially knowing the future heir, was a guy who hunted people down for sport?!? That was Roose's fatal error, (and possibly his only big one-but it was enough)-he didn't understand that nobody, I mean nobody in the North, noble, or commoner, from the Wall to the Neck wanted the Bolton's in charge. For that matter, they won't want a Lannister coming in and taking charge either, via a forced marriage. Something Tywin didn't really understand. Mr. Bell, my thoughts exactly. Having a Frey/Tully baby inherit Riverrun because it is loved by its parents, is EXACTLY the sort of nuanced writing and realistic character development that makes GRRM one of the best. Yes it would be horrible for the River Lords to one day bend the knee in Riverrun to a child that is half- Frey. For the record, I have no problem with Edmure/Roslin's baby, (assuming it survives all the coming turmoil which I have my doubts about) inheriting Riverrun and even the Riverlands someday-but said child should not be raised by Roslin's family-or the Lannister's. It should be in the custody of either its parents, or (if something should happen to them,) some reputable foster figure like the Blackfish or Tytos Blackwood or the likes. I think the Riverlords would accept that as well. But they won't stand for a Tully heir being brought up by the likes of Black Walder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 The Starks destroying the Boltons and Freys? To me it seems like Stannis is doing all the work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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