Stannis Ruined? (Book Spoilers)

[Mulled Wino]

Let's be honest here, Stannis is pretty much a force for evil

Using dark magic to kill your own family? Check

Burning people alive? Check

Considering burning your own nephew? Check

Allowing your most loyal servant to rot in a dungeon? Check

Upjumping a deservig commoner pirate to hand of the king against all customs f westeros. Check

Fighting to earn your kingdom by saving it from te real threat, as opposed to winning it by killing ieach other. Check. Having a true senseof justice and not taking or offerring bribes and perpetuating sleazy culture and moral decay. Check.

I know a lot of people with dragons that burned people alive. They all evil too?

[Toxspecific]

Stannis having a crush on Mel is a possibility even in the books, but him seeming so hungry to attain an heir for his cause is just out of character.

This, Jaime's cousin killing.... Bad moves. Out of character. Stannis would view making a son as a formality. And he would sure as hell not ask Melisandre to give birth to a human bastard - what the heck, D&D?

[Tywin's bastard]

Some out of character scene during a time where Stannis is defeated and desperate does in no way ruin the character. Given that we know that a certain battle in the next season will be even bigger than Blackwater it's pretty obvious that he will get his mojo back. He needs to be defeated for now though.

[Mulled Wino]

Worst scene they have done in the show so far. Complete character assassination and really out of place.

Stannis sounded like a drunk trying desperately to get laid.

It looked like a B-side take aswell. You can see Mel smirking the whole time.

Sooooo B-side. It was horribly acted.

I love the character that is book Stannis. I think show Stannis is a pretty patetic translation so far. "I want Joffrey and Robb Stark dead!" Book Stannis is no simpering fool.

But hey, if D&D want to make Stannis the bad guy, I don't really care. I have bo prolem rooting for the bad guy.

Overall I'm not all that impressed with D&D anyway, i watch the show because I have to to pass the time till WoW comes out.

[Warhawk137]

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach as to Stannis. On one hand he's had some pretty serious out-of-character moments, but on the other, I can sort of see how those out-of-character moments are, in a roundabout way, kinda in-character. He's a man grasping for a foothold, so moments where he deviates from his normal, established personality could simply be indicative of his loss of direction.

So I kinda want to see where the go with him from here.

[Penguin king]

of course you like the show Stannis more , after all you are a Stannis hater .

I don't hate Stannis. He's got his moments. I just think he's a lot more self serving than he pretends, especially before Davos talks him into aiding the Night's Watch. If he'd be more honest about his desires I'd give him a lot more respect.

Actually book Stannis quite visibly does not lust for power or for the IT because he wants it, but because... Well, because it's the Lawful thing to do and he will break before he bends.

As Syrio would say, "look with your eyes". He talks a lot about law and duty, but when does he ever put duty above his own desires? Even going to the wall works in his best interests. Robb's sense of duty leads to him losing his alliance with the Freys and alienating the Karstarks. When does Stannis's duty ever hold him back?

[Mulled Wino]

I don't hate Stannis. He's got his moments. I just think he's a lot more self serving than he pretends, especially before Davos talks him into aiding the Night's Watch. If he'd be more honest about his desires I'd give him a lot more respect.

As Syrio would say, "look with your eyes". He talks a lot about law and duty, but when does he ever put duty above his own desires? Even going to the wall works in his best interests. Robb's sense of duty leads to him losing his alliance with the Freys and alienating the Karstarks. When does Stannis's duty ever hold him back?

Really? What sense of duty? The duty to honor the contract you made with the Frey's and to the people who made you their king? And Cat lost the Karstarks.

It's hard to tell if your posts are serious or not, but if the "proudwing" story means nothing to you, there's probably no hope for you ever, lol.

[Mulled Wino]

They're certainly making Stannis a more passionate sort of character. Presumably because they think it makes him more sympathetic and likable? Curiously, the enjoyment of Stannis in the novels has a lot to do with his being unsympathetic and unlikable.

Why would you presume that it would be to make him more sympathetic and likeable? It's much more likely they are trying to make him unlikeable to create a villain. Who would like him the way he is now, acting like a hornier version of Joffrey.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I'm no big time Stannis fan, but that scene was just really odd. I didn't like it. Better to leave it out and wait until they can better develop what is going on with him.

[Tywin's bastard]

Why would you presume that it would be to make him more sympathetic and likeable? It's much more likely they are trying to make him unlikeable to create a villain. Who would like him the way he is now, acting like a hornier version of Joffrey.

What has Stannis done that is sadistic?

And him wanting to sleep with Melisandre is nothing new either as it's obvious that they are sleeping together in the books. They are just making him a bit more desperate after his loss.

[Mulled Wino]

Some out of character scene during a time where Stannis is defeated and desperate does in no way ruin the character. Given that we know that a certain battle in the next season will be even bigger than Blackwater it's pretty obvious that he will get his mojo back. He needs to be defeated for now though.

I can reserve judgement as well for now because I think they're building up for a huuuuge character turnaround that will be more shocking than the RW (because I think that's lost its mojo). But this scene was trashy. Their expressions, the writing, it was low brow.

[Mulled Wino]

What has Stannis done that is sadistic?

And him wanting to sleep with Melisandre is nothing new either as it's obvious that they are sleeping together in the books. They are just making him a bit more desperate after his loss.

Begging for a shadow baby assassin, some might say burning people is sadistic, although his intentions weren't really sadist. According to show Stannis, he knew and knows that banging Mel is birthing him a shadow assassin. That's pretty twisted IMO.

OBVIOUSLY. The exact problem is that they're making him way more desperate as far as chasing Mel around. Exactly my point. In addition to throwing Davos in his dungeons. I mean, why the change if not to make him more of a villain.

[Rockroi]

They're certainly making Stannis a more passionate sort of character. Presumably because they think it makes him more sympathetic and likable? Curiously, the enjoyment of Stannis in the novels has a lot to do with his being unsympathetic and unlikable.

This.

I have said several times that one of my major problems is that I believe that the show runners do not understand Stannis. But I could be mistaken.

Giving the creators the benefit of the doubt, I thinkw e have to rememeber that much of our appreciation of Stannis comes from his growth in SoS. While Stannis is in a larger % of CoK, IIRC, page-for-page, he's actually in more of a SoS, and much of that is in Davos' introspection of what Stannis is saying to him. In other words, more of Stannis is actually going to be revealed as time goes on and that we, as show-watchers, may come to appreciate Stannis more as we did when we were book-readers. Stannis' growth, really, is yet to come.

At the same time, I always liked that Stannis was unlikeable and distant; aloof and brooding; just and intractable. I also like that Stannis was socially inept (go back and re-read the scene where he first meets Sam Tarly; if it wasn't so funny it would be horrifying). But even more, I liked that Stannis didn't really change who he was to get anything or impress anyone. He was always very Stannis all the time.

Maybe that's why his interplay with Mel is so gratting; in those scenes he's not Stannis Baratheon, King of Westeros, he's "The GUy Mel is Fucking" and acts like it. He's whiney, petulant, reduced to begging. That Stannis is never present in the books and trying to rectify that Stannis- ever the intractable, unmerciful, and crass - with thi sbegging little man is not working for me.

But I should add that maybe it will, soon.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Stannis came across in the scene as desperate. Not so much desperate to bang Melisandre right there on the beach, but desperate to kill his rivals and regain the upper hand in the war. His motivation for "wanting" Mel appeared to be the creation of another shadowbaby to do his dirty work. When Mel counters that this isn't possible, Stannis backs off and goes cold as usual. So on some level, it made sense.

That said, the scene was clumsily executed and poorly written. Surely the writers could have gotten the same point across without making Stannis appear so pathetic, although perhaps they're wanting to demonstrate the depth of his dependence on Mel.

[Lady Octarina]

I wouldn't say he was ruined or OOC, and Dillane has such chemistry with Carice Van Houten I can't help loving their scenes.

The thing is, in the books, as we don't have his POV, we form an opinion of him through that of characters who simply don't know him that well and erroneously believe him incapable of joy, of bending, of anything but being a bore and doing his duty. Davos, Melisandre and Jon are the only POV characters who understand him, but in Melisandre's chapters she has other things to worry about; Davos sees his human side, but avoid thinking of his relationship with Melisandre; and Jon is more concerned with Stannis the leader, the king, han Stannis the man.

In that scene, what we have is a man who lost this major battle, which affected his reputation as a general, a man who isn't even considered enough of a threat to have his enemies send a few ships against him, what with his being so close to KL. The man is depressed, as is evident by the first episode. He had to lock away one of the two people in whom he trusts after believing him dead, and now the other one is leaving him and doesn't even want to tell him where she's going. With neither of them by his side, he loses his moral and emotional support and just sinks deeper into whatever hole he's in right now. So, that scene with Melisandre on episode three, I don't see it like "Stannis is a lusty beast who gave up on duty and is turning into Robert", but as a lonely man having a very human moment of needing a friend by his side, but having no idea how to reach out other than by suggesting they make more shadow babies to crush their enemies, and who's left on that beach feeling betrayed because the other person still thinks their mysterious mission is more important than him at that moment (or maybe jealous because he understood what she was going to do, it doesn't really matter).

[Penguin king]

Really? What sense of duty? The duty to honor the contract you made with the Frey's and to the people who made you their king?

The duty he owed to Jane Westerling and her family not to steal her virginity and leave her with a bastard child. You might disagree with his decision, but you can't argue that his sense of duty led him to take an action that directly conficted with what he was trying to achive.

And Cat lost the Karstarks.

Robb could have won them back. He could have pardoned Rickard for his crimes and worked with him to track down Jaime. But his sense of duty was too strong, and he had to deliver Rickard the punishment due to him by law. When has Stannis ever put the law ahead of his own ambitions?

It's hard to tell if your posts are serious or not, but if the "proudwing" story means nothing to you, there's probably no hope for you ever, lol.

Sometimes I have a hard time telling if all you Stannis Fanboys are being serious. A lot of posts seem to be based on the assumption that; "OMG!!! Stannis is such an epic BAMF, action hero, internet meme LOLZ" I figure thats probably being unfair, and that you all have genuine reasons to like him, even if I can't really understand them. I'd appreciate it if you could offer me the same benefit of the doubt.

[Tywin's bastard]

Begging for a shadow baby assassin, some might say burning people is sadistic, although his intentions weren't really sadist. According to show Stannis, he knew and knows that banging Mel is birthing him a shadow assassin. That's pretty twisted IMO.

OBVIOUSLY. The exact problem is that they're making him way more desperate as far as chasing Mel around. Exactly my point. In addition to throwing Davos in his dungeons. I mean, why the change if not to make him more of a villain.

There's nothing sadistic at all in anything you write here. Sadism is taking pleasure in seeing other people harmed, which Stannis does not. It's one of the most significant character traits with Joffrey though.

As for making him a villain, why would they try to do that by making him more human? I'd say that an emotionally distant and cold person is easier to dislike. I think the change is more about making Melisandre look like she's in control though.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Really? What sense of duty? The duty to honor the contract you made with the Frey's and to the people who made you their king? And Cat lost the Karstarks.

Robb had a sense of 'honour' for Jayne Westerling and her family and his stupid act, but that angle is missing with 'Talisa'. But either way, I agree. He failed in both honour and duty to the Freys.

Edit: Quote should probably have been to Penguin King. My apologies.

[Castle Black]

Why does everyone have such a big problem with this? It's actually quite obvious that Stannis and Mel were bangin. In ADWD during Mel's POV chapter, she mentions that her bed has been lonely ever since Stannis left the wall. This actually fits quite a bit if you ask me.

[StarkDragon]

It's hard to tell if your posts are serious or not, but if the "proudwing" story means nothing to you, there's probably no hope for you ever, lol.

I actually had to look that up...

Sometimes I have a hard time telling if all you Stannis Fanboys are being serious. A lot of posts seem to be based on the assumption that; "OMG!!! Stannis is such an epic BAMF, action hero, internet meme LOLZ" I figure thats probably being unfair, and that you all have genuine reasons to like him, even if I can't really understand them. I'd appreciate it if you could offer me the same benefit of the doubt.

Well, from my point of view, I relate to Stannis's straight faced humor.

I also enjoy, as far as I read from him, his anti-sexuality. It was obviously part of him, being a Baratheon, defined by his sexuality, or lack thereof.

I also like a chapter from TWOW, where he shows some commanding skill.

Against Karstark

Is he my favorite character? No.

But then again, short of despairingly pointless or boring POVS in AFFC/ADWD, I really have a hard time making an ultimate decision on characters.