Mulled Wino Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 ok, I probably oversimplified there. Like David says, supporting Aerys was probably a risky option as he was not against punishining men for the crimes of their brothers, but I suppose holding Storms end in his name might have convinced him of his loyalty. Being torn between his king and his brother probably wasn't an easy position to be put in, and It's interesting that, like Robb, Stannis choses personal loyalty over feudal obligationsIt's still not an example of Stannis making a personal sacrifice for duty though, as he stood to gain as much as he stood to lose from his service. If he'd served Aerys and Aerys won he'd have probably been made lord of Storm's End, and with Robbert he stood to gain Storms End and 1st place in the line of succesion. Robert kinda let him down there, but he did get Dragonstone at least, and a seat on the small council.What i'm looking for is an example of when Stannis has put his duty or his legal obligations first, and directly suffered as a result.I already told you, Proudwing. He suffered merciless mocking in order to do fullfill his obligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Pretty much. I'm really just taking the TV series as kind of a joke. Its like when you watch a movie and its too unrealistic so you begin to entertain yourself by picking it apart. I'm not very impressed with much of their translations.Lol that's a good idea, instead of treating the show as a serious interpretation of grrm's works(which it started off as) just think of it like the comedy it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runaway Penguin Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 People are overreacting to this. Once Davos gets out of the cell and Stannis makes him his hand, he will go back to being close to the Stannis from the books. I'm not too worried yet. This should actually happen in next weeks episode...............................But there again lies the problem - Stannis made Davos Hand for obvious reasons (loyal, not afraid to speak his mind) after Davos was examined by Mel - with her distinct approval - despite being openly hostile to her. Yes, Stannis is kinda desperate - but it shows by brooding more than usual, not by begging sexual favors.I shudder to think how Davos being released and promoted would look like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Did Stannis not say that the choice was hard? So you're saying he was lying? To what end? Excuse for me not taking everything Stannis says as gospel unlike some of you. He is perfectly capable of lies and is a big time hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I just hope they get it right when he goes north and show his righteousnessCould be part of the roller-coaster they are setting the season up for. Here's how it could pan out.1) Starks in trouble now, but resolution options appear to be good with Edmure's wedding - season end BAM oops option gone2) Daenaerys - looks great through the season then - BAM she is still thousands of miles away with no way of getting her army home. Come back in S7 or S8.3) Lannister/Tyrell alliance - firmer grasp on the throne than ever with the wedding coming up4) Stannis - looks terrible all season then - BAM big hero move at the end moving north5) Greyjoys - Who?As a show it would work, but they have to make sure they don't ruin Stannis enough that viewers can't re-engage with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Stannis was certainly not an unstable wreck after the Blackwater. This is a tough guy we're talking about. Sure, the whole misfortune of his loss at the BW must have shaken him up a bit but he was more pissed off than desperate (the sort of desperate they showed in the episode, that is) and had no intentions of banging Melisandre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I already told you, Proudwing. He suffered merciless mocking in order to do fullfill his obligation.Obligation to a bird? I guess I took away something different from that story.My understanding is he cared for Proudwing out of love and compassion. He wanted to see her soar for those reasons, and maybe a little pride on his part. Yet after her repeated failure and his brother's relentless mocking he abandons her at his uncle's inistance. It seems to me that on that day Stannis gave up on ideas like compassion and sentiment and chose to focus instead on the cold hard practicallities.I found it kind of tragic.I'd be interested if you could expand your take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Poor Stannis.I hope they invent a new Viagra drug to help him get that "fire burning" again.They could call it, "Wildfire", for when "Your fire burns low, time to to stoke the inner flames with Wildfire!" :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Excuse for me not taking everything Stannis says as gospel unlike some of you. He is perfectly capable of lies and is a big time hypocrite.Im trying to figure out why he would have lied about it...im sure you have a reason. I can see an argument for some other lies you claim from stannis, specifically whether or not he knew about the first shadowbaby beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Dbl post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 There just setting up him as desperate and aimless, 1) to give weighted need to his acceptance of Mel's blood ritual with Robert's bastard, and 2) to make it all the more surprising when he decides to save the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin's bastard Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Begging for another shadow baby assassin isn't making him more villainous?To kill Joffrey with it? Hardly. That's probably what a lot of viewers would hope for.Stannis was certainly not an unstable wreck after the Blackwater. This is a tough guy we're talking about. Sure, the whole misfortune of his loss at the BW must have shaken him up a bit but he was more pissed off than desperate (the sort of desperate they showed in the episode, that is) and had no intentions of banging Melisandre.He was certainly banging Melisandre for an extended period of time. Melisandre says that her bed is so lonely after Stannis leaves in a later book and they certainly weren't making shadows all the time (then Stannis would have died). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 We know Stannis and Melisandre sleep together more than once in the novels.I don't know that Stannis was unstable, but he was certainly a wreck after the Blackwater in the books. Brooding, just brooding, not seeing any way forward, letting Melisandre and Axell take more and more control, and so on. It took Davos's return and their reconciliation to start to snap him out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Excuse for me not taking everything Stannis says as gospel unlike some of you. He is perfectly capable of lies and is a big time hypocrite.I disagree. He has no motive for lying about this and is not known by anyone to lie. As for hypocrisy, do tell as I would to hear this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Nan Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I hated that scene too. Yes, Stannis and Melisandre were probably having sex to produce the shadow babies, but that's it. The Baratheon brothers represent three forms of male sexuality: Robert-Heterosexual, Renly-Homosexual, and Stannis-Asexual. The sigil of their house is a Stag, often associated with male sexuality.Stannis only has sex with his wife because it is his "duty" to create heirs, and only has sex with Melisandre to produce shadow babies. Other than that I doubt he would even have sex at all. So yes, having him begging Melisandre not to go away because he wants her so much, and groping her on the beach, goes against everything that GRRM established in the books, and I think it is character assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Out of the 5 kings, Stannis has the best claim, i don't disagree with that. All I disagree with is the idea that he doesn't want to be king. He claims that Storm's End, the Handship and the Iron throne aren't things he ever wanted, but they were all his by right. That just seems really petty to me. Why get so upset by and go to such great lengths to gain titles that you don't even want? If that's really the case then he's no better than gregor with his wooden knight. In fact he's far far worse. Gregor immolated his brother to get back his toy, how many men have died so that Stannis can stop other people playing with his?The point i'm making is his duty and his ambition are one and the same. Being Roberts hand was never his right, but he acted like it was because he wanted the power. He acts like the Iron throne would be a terrible burden, but he's willing to go to almost any length to sit on it. His duty is only important when he stands to benifit. Even roberts rebellion took him from heir to the Stormlands to heir to the throne. He never seems to suffer for his duty.THIS!however, while the reader knows stannis has the strongest claim to the throne, westeros does not and most likely never will since it is not possible to prove the genetics of robert's children. unless cersei or jaime confess about their children, it will always look like stannis is another usurper. but otherwise, yeah, he wants it and is lying to the world and to himself about his duty. one doesn't kill one's brother for duty. even renly was clear on what he was doing and why. he was prepared to fight for what he wanted. so is stannis. he wants it, regardless of how much he denies it and has shown that he is willing to go to great lengths to get it. show stannis seems to illustrate this more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Im trying to figure out why he would have lied about it...im sure you have a reason. I can see an argument for some other lies you claim from stannis, specifically whether or not he knew about the first shadowbaby beforehand. Stannis always tries to talk up how dutiful he is and what sacrifices he made for duty. So explaining that it was a hard choice it was between Robert and Aerys when it actually wasn't that hard makes perfect sense to me. You know, the "Look what I sacrificed for my brother even though he didn't like me" kind of speech, embellishing or plain twisting the truth to make himself look like a victim - that's perfectly in character. Plus wasn't he trying to justify to Davos why he was forgiving those who changed sides from Renly and joined him? IIRC that's when this talk happened though I could be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelos Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 just because we have no POV where Stannis and Mel have some adult fun, doesn't mean it didn't happen.I like Stannis showing some form of humanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I disagree. He has no motive for lying about this and is not known by anyone to lie. As for hypocrisy, do tell as I would to hear this.Well, there is the fact that he claims to be law abiding,just and right, yet commits adultery and kinslaying. For Stannis, no crime is too great if it will get him the throne, as he has demonstrated several times. Im still not entirely convinced that he wouldn't have executed Edric Storm if Davos hadn't rescued him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Thanks for the backup :)I know it can be a sore spot for some posters when you criticize their favourite characters, but I'm not deliberately trying to step on people's toes.No need to thank me, I just prefer to hear others' POV's (other people have different ways of thinking of things that I might not first consider or properly appreciate), and dislike knocking it out of hand, especially if the knocking comes off as bias.That being said, there is certainly room to a multitude of interpretations on Stannis, especially if we do 'gap-filling'. Personally I try to avoid this, as I find it bias as well, but sometimes it's necessary to continue with a character I suppose. In that, I have to say I relate to this:The Baratheon brothers represent three forms of male sexuality: Robert-Heterosexual, Renly-Homosexual, and Stannis-Asexual. The sigil of their house is a Stag, often associated with male sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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