R+L=J v.47

[Stann]

It's ALSO possible Howland Reed could let Mormont and Glover KNOW Bran and Rickon are alive, yeah? I mean if the purpose of legitimizing Jon is because Sansa is the only heir and married to Tyrion (which it was) then proof that there are more heirs changes the playing field.

You're the second person I've seen allude to the fact that Reed knows the Stark boys are alive. What did I miss? How does Reed know this?

[Alia of the knife]

Personally I think there is textual evidence to support the theory that the otherwise highly-respected Rhaegar was suffering from Bipolar Disorder; a form of mental illness.

That being said, the Starks don't do incest and don't appear to be afflicted by madness, so there is less concern about Jon inheriting the genes that were concentrated in the incestuous Targ line. I think Ned would have protected his sister's son no matter what because he put love and family ahead of his own honor when it came to a choice.

p.s.: Sanka is an abomination to the Old Gods and the New.

Totall agree with you analysis, and I'd also throw in Cremora with the Sanka. :stillsick:

[Alia of the knife]

Totally agree with your analysis, and I'd also throw in Cremora with the Sanka. :stillsick:

Please someone make this go away.

Thats what I get for posting when tired.

[whitedog42]

Is there any chance Jon is a twin and that Ned left one boy with Ashara Dayne along the sword that protected the babes? A dark haired twin and a silver haired twin? "Where is the other one?"

[J. Stargaryen]

Is there any chance Jon is a twin and that Ned left one boy with Ashara Dayne along the sword that protected the babes? A dark haired twin and a silver haired twin? "Where is the other one?"

It seems unnecessarily complicated. Why split up Lyanna's twins? "Promise me, Ned... that you'll take care of the cute one."

[Alia of the knife]

You know if I was more convinced about the possibility of Jaime and Cersei being Targs I'd more readily accept that Jaime in Targ colors signifies a Lannister-Targ connection here. But I'm not especially persuaded by the ideas that replace Tywin with Aerys as the baby daddy to some or all of the Lannister children. But I can certainly see how one could make this connection.

I also wonder if Jon's admiration of Jaime may indicate how Jon will feel about Rhaegar. Or maybe not. Assuming Jon will learn the truth about his heritage, he may be profoundly conflicted about the Targaryens. It's interesting that one of Jon's heroes is the Young Dragon (Daearon); and in his play with Robb he would always pretend to be a Targ. (I want to say it's Aemon the Dragonknight but I can't find it in the pdf'd GoT I currently have open and my seven year old has my Kindle with all five novels on it!)

Anyway, I realize that I'm not saying anything new or original here. Participating in the Jon Re-read, however, has me introduced to or re-thinking about some of these layers.

I think it would be fitting that Tyrion is the true son of Tywin.

On a different topic, but along the lines of the bitterness and hatred that the Targs. caused by marrying for love.

I've also speculated that the Tyrells are Jamie and Cersei's payback for Tywins ambition, and do see a parallel between the four siblings, because in their own way Loras and Margaery are a team, though not in the same way Jaimie and Cersei are, but in spirit, (though the TV show took that a bit further in the would-be threesome with Renly- cough). This is historically reminiscent of the charge of incest between Anne Boleyn and her brother who was also rumoured to be bisexual.

Lady Olenna:

Remember the story that Lady Olenna told Sansa about almost having married a Targ. but she soon put an end to it. What if it was the other way around, and it was a Targ. that scorned her for another?

House Tyrell, whose words are "growing stronger," has been ambitious for a long time, so what if this is one of the Houses that Selmy alluded to in terms of being bitter?

[Jon Icefyre]

Wow I had no Idea we were on to thread 47.

It seems unnecessarily complicated. Why split up Lyanna's twins? "Promise me, Ned... that you'll take care of the cute one."

Hahaha that's fuckin classic! :lmao:

I think it would be fitting that Tyrion is the true son of Tywin.

On a different topic, but along the lines of the bitterness and hatred that the Targs. caused by marrying for love.

I've also speculated that the Tyrells are Jamie and Cersei's payback for Tywins ambition, and do see a parallel between the four siblings, because in their own way Loras and Margaery are a team, though not in the same way Jaimie and Cersei are, but in spirit, (though the TV show took that a bit further in the would-be threesome with Renly- cough). This is historically reminiscent of the charge of incest between Anne Boleyn and her brother who was also rumoured to be bisexual.

Lady Olenna:

Remember the story that Lady Olenna told Sansa about almost having married a Targ. but she soon put an end to it. What if it was the other way around, and it was a Targ. that scorned her for another?

House Tyrell, whose words are "growing stronger," has been ambitious for a long time, so what if this is one of the Houses that Selmy alluded to in terms of being bitter?

Could be, I did always assume that if GRRM did indeed reveal more info about what happened to the mystery Targs, then the one that Lady Olenna was talking about would for sure be one of those Targs..It just seems kind of odd for GRRM to even have her character mention such a thing unless it had a somewhat important and relevant backstory.

[Twinslayer]

It seems unnecessarily complicated. Why split up Lyanna's twins? "Promise me, Ned... that you'll take care of the cute one."

I agree with your conclusion. This would be kind of complicated.

I have always thought that Ned let the rumour go out that Ashara was the mother just in case Jon's eyes turned purple when he got older.

But I sometimes wonder if there might have been two babies. In that case, Ned took the one that looked like him and sent the other one off with Ashara. This would be consistent with the idea that you separate the heirs (as the Reeds did with Bran and Rickon, the Lannisters did with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, and Aerys did with Aegon and Viserys -- or, if you like Alfie Allen, there's a Star Wars angle to this).

If this were true it probably would mean Young Griff is the twin.

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree with your conclusion. This would be kind of complicated.

I have always thought that Ned let the rumour go out that Ashara was the mother just in case Jon's eyes turned purple when he got older.

But I sometimes wonder if there might have been two babies. In that case, Ned took the one that looked like him and sent the other one off with Ashara. This would be consistent with the idea that you separate the heirs (as the Reeds did with Bran and Rickon, the Lannisters did with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, and Aerys did with Aegon and Viserys -- or, if you like Alfie Allen, there's a Star Wars angle to this).

If this were true it probably would mean Young Griff is the twin.

I've always wondered if there wasn't something to this line of thinking. I don't know about eyes, but hair color can definitely change, though I think it usually gets darker. I was blonde up until about 4 or 5.

But yeah, Dayne's are certainly a good cover story for any potential emerging Targaryen-like features.

[Twinslayer]

I've always wondered if there wasn't something to this line of thinking. I don't know about eyes, but hair color can definitely change, though I think it usually gets darker. I was blonde up until about 4 or 5.

But yeah, Dayne's are certainly a good cover story for any potential emerging Targaryen-like features.

Good point about the hair colour, too. Some babies don't have much hair when they are first born so Ned may not have known early on if this was a problem. I seem to recall that some of the Daynes had fair hair so this could be another reason for the Ashara rumour.

[corbon]

I have always thought that Ned let the rumour go out that Ashara was the mother just in case Jon's eyes turned purple when he got older.

What is this 'Ned let the rumour go out'?

He was publicly at Starfall, returning Dawn. Baby Jon would have been seen there, for the first time by people not 'in on it'. Ashara's suicide is public knowledge happening at the same time.

Those three things, all public knowledge, all happening tgether, are all you need for the rumour to start that Ashara was the babies mother independently all over westeros. Ned has no control over it at all. And his response to Catelyn shows that he would not have encouraged it either.

Note also that Starfall people don't believe it - probably because they know Ashara's pregnancy was much earlier and not related toNed Stark.. Ned Dayne believes Wylla was Jon's mother, even though he thinks Ned and Ashara were in love.

[Ser Creighton]

You're the second person I've seen allude to the fact that Reed knows the Stark boys are alive. What did I miss? How does Reed know this?

That's a good question, and for a change I may have a more concrete answer for you. Howland may not know they are alive just yet, but may find out soon enough. Let me take you back to Thrones and start from there.

Howland is ordered to hold the neck via a letter from Ned Stark. So I can resume Howland Reed will do just that. After thrones another Howland send his children to Bran. The Iron born attack and take Moat Calin, Howland is tied up so to speak. It's after this that he believe the Starks and his Children are probably killed.

So Howland deals with Moat Calin, the Crannog men kept up their attacks on the old fort.

Now lets jump to Dance. Ram and Theon free Moat Calin, thus freeing Howland Reed, for the North the war is over, sort of. Theon is currently believed dead by most of the North. But something happens, a wedding, Bolton and Stark, and many, many people go to Winterfell, including Free Riders and camp followers and Theon Greyjoy is publicly shown to be a alive to ever major house of the North.

Now Howland Reed was close with Ned Stark and it could be assumed that with both there believed loses Howland might venture forth to try and see if he could do something about the Boltons and more than like save Arya if he can. There he finds out about Theon, if their is one person on this planet he probably want to talk to and kill it's Theon Greyjoy. Also not a bad place to create some chaos if he can.

Now we all know about the murders at Winterfell, during the Ghosts of Winterfell chapter.

Suspect number one is Manderly, however lady Dustin doubts this, stating he brought his knights and these murders are not Knights work, most seemed to agree.

Suspect number 2 is Theon, and we know it's not him.

Suspect number 3 is Mance and the Spear wives, but when the last murder happens Mance and the Spear wives are surprised as anyone and state "this is no work of ours."

Now lets go back little to a man Theon came across, a lot of people asume this was Mance, but Mance never remarks about it and Theon never recalls this being Mance, nor did this person want any information that Mance wanted. In fact this man looked as if he was about to kill him, reaching for his dagger and calling him out to his face. He wanted to know but one thing, how are you still alive. Perhaps not the right time and place to speak to or kill Theon, and also seeing what Theon had become this man walks away, but I don't think we have seen the last of him.

"The man put his hand on his dagger." "Theon turncloak, Theon Kinslayer," false is all you ever were, how is it you still breathe?" Mance already knew how Theon was still alive. The man walked away. Now it very well could have been Manderly ordering the killings, but this man, this man I believe is someone else. Theon recognized a lot of people, and most of the lords found out what happened to Theon. An assasin is not just going to show his face to Ramsay's favorite pet let alone stop and speak with him. That man did something personal. I believe that is Howland Reed. Reed probably took an educated guess the Poole was not Arya being to old and looking like neither a Stark or a Tully. He could of been the one creating chaos, or he could have been spying for his own purpose, or both.

Now we know Theon escapes and Ramsay and many men persue him and Poole, who is to say that was not an ideal time for this man (Reed) to slip out. And maybe he tracks Theon, back to Stannis, he knows where Stannis is anyway and could just head there to reveal information to him. Seems logical enough as he knows Stannis and Jon made common ground, Theon even states this. And who will he find with Stannis? Theon, and who knows that he didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon? Theon. Now he might stay for the battle we know is coming and if Manderly lives he is going to find out about Rickon. And if Davos manages to return Rickon to Stannis he is going to know exactly where Bran was headed with his kids. Which will lead him to Jon and the Wall.

So I am pretty much willing to wager that unkown man was in fact Howland Reed, dude can't stay in the bogs all the time and that Theon, Stannis, Manderly and Rickon are going to have more than enough information for him to figure out where his kids went. I think Howland is going North, I think by the time he gets there Jon will have recovered and settled the Wildling/Knights watch problems and maybe just maybe Sam returns. And the two of them will head North together to find their respective families. So yeah I will go with that as answer, plus Jon Howland super team up, time for a talk Jonny boy.

[Snark_Tamer]

LOVE the idea that the unknown man is Howland Reed, but my assumptions are much simpler [as to how Howland knows the Stark boys live]. Jojen has explained the Greensight to Bran--his own greensight allows to see the future. Bran tells Jojen [this is where my memory is fuzzy, but I think it is about Ned's executuion] and Jojen says 'I know, my father saw as if he were there' (or something like that. Howland's greensite is to see events in far places.

And then there is the ASSUMPTION I made: what use is THAT if you can't even check on your own children? I think through his greensight, he knows his children headed for the wall, and they would not have done this if they weren't escorting Bran.He might have even seen the full events. They were rather a big deal--two castle takeovers.

[Twinslayer]

What is this 'Ned let the rumour go out'?

He was publicly at Starfall, returning Dawn. Baby Jon would have been seen there, for the first time by people not 'in on it'. Ashara's suicide is public knowledge happening at the same time.

Those three things, all public knowledge, all happening tgether, are all you need for the rumour to start that Ashara was the babies mother independently all over westeros. Ned has no control over it at all. And his response to Catelyn shows that he would not have encouraged it either.

Note also that Starfall people don't believe it - probably because they know Ashara's pregnancy was much earlier and not related toNed Stark.. Ned Dayne believes Wylla was Jon's mother, even though he thinks Ned and Ashara were in love.

I get this from the fact Ned knows very well that the rumour is out there and he never denies it (except privately to Robert). He doesn't deny it when Catelyn asks him. In fact, his response -- I'll know where you heard "that name" -- is calculated to imply it might be true. And he doesn't deny it when Cersei asks him, he just lets her go on believing it was (or might have been) Ashara. And think about it from Cersei's perspective. She throws the accusation at Ned -- Ashara bore your bastard -- in a slanderous way and Ned doesn't come to Ashara's defence? What conclusion is Cersei supposed to draw from that?

If Ned really didn't want anyone speculating about Jon's mother he would have told everyone publicly it was Wylla, who already obviously agreed to play that role. I think he lets the Ashara rumour hang out there, undenied, because one day it might come in handy.

[FittleLinger]

LOVE the idea that the unknown man is Howland Reed, but my assumptions are much simpler [as to how Howland knows the Stark boys live]. Jojen has explained the Greensight to Bran--his own greensight allows to see the future. Bran tells Jojen [this is where my memory is fuzzy, but I think it is about Ned's executuion] and Jojen says 'I know, my father saw as if he were there' (or something like that. Howland's greensite is to see events in far places.

And then there is the ASSUMPTION I made: what use is THAT if you can't even check on your own children? I think through his greensight, he knows his children headed for the wall, and they would not have done this if they weren't escorting Bran.He might have even seen the full events. They were rather a big deal--two castle takeovers.

That's the show though - I don't think we have any indications of Howland Reed being a greenseer in the books.

[corbon]

If Ned really didn't want anyone speculating about Jon's mother he would have told everyone publicly it was Wylla, who already obviously agreed to play that role. I think he lets the Ashara rumour hang out there, undenied, because one day it might come in handy.

ok, that I can get. Its out there, and he doesn't mind it too much, given that something will always be out there and denial is the surest way to convince people to look closer. But the way you guys were speculating sounded like Ned planned it and set it up as a rumour, which I don't believe makes sense at all.

IMO he'd clearly prefer there were no rumours, but isn't going to make a show and dance about something he can't control and doesn't actually harm his cause, because a show and dance will cause him harm.

[FittleLinger]

ok, that I can get. Its out there, and he doesn't mind it too much, given that something will always be out there and denial is the surest way to convince people to look closer. But the way you guys were speculating sounded like Ned planned it and set it up as a rumour, which I don't believe makes sense at all.

IMO he'd clearly prefer there were no rumours, but isn't going to make a show and dance about something he can't control and doesn't actually harm his cause, because a show and dance will cause him harm.

I'm 50 50 on the matter. It might have been Ned spreading it, or it might have been a lucky coincidence that the one woman rumored to have something with Ned has purple eyes and Targ traits in her family, and he's trying to hide a Targ baby... Maybe it wasn't Ned, but Howland or even Wylla who put up oil in the fire of this rumour?

[Alia of the knife]

Wow I had no Idea we were on to thread 47.

Hahaha that's fuckin classic! :lmao:

Could be, I did always assume that if GRRM did indeed reveal more info about what happened to the mystery Targs, then the one that Lady Olenna was talking about would for sure be one of those Targs..It just seems kind of odd for GRRM to even have her character mention such a thing unless it had a somewhat important and relevant backstory.

Woops, I need to clarify, because Lady Olenna would not have been a Tyrell herself at the time that any marriage negotiations might have been going on, but later, she might have used the power of House Tyrell to advance her family, or exact any revenge against the Targs. if she indeed was thrown over for another woman, a la Lady Dustin.

As an aside: On "Defiance," did you catch the secret betrothal at the end in front of the trees? ;) :P

Good point about the hair colour, too. Some babies don't have much hair when they are first born so Ned may not have known early on if this was a problem. I seem to recall that some of the Daynes had fair hair so this could be another reason for the Ashara rumour.

Gerold Dayne especially and about whom Arianne said their children would have been as beautiful as dragonlords, as well as Ned Dayne.

I don't think we ever had a description of Ser Arthur.

I go either way on the twin idea. I can see the objection of it complicating the story, but, it would also tie up a lot of loose ends. However, it also means that Varys was involved and knows about the TOJ.

[finger]

Not to rail us back on topic or anything, but there's a big part about all of this that I find troubling. The question keeps being raised about how the facts of Jon's birth parents and his legitimacy or lack thereof will be brought to the attention of both Jon himself and the realm as a whole. When this question is raised, it usually leads to one of two answers:

It doesn't matter as he'll need to win the Throne with fire and blood (and dragons wouldn't hurt), or

The Throne is about to become a complete non-issue with the coming of the Others.

So then why the great mystery? It's not like GRRM was all coy about it or anything. It's an obvious mystery that's meant to be a big reveal later in the books. They even foreshadowed it on the TV show. But all the theories bouncing around back and forth seem to indicate that, while it would be a neat fact and a lovely confirmation to all this theorycrafting and nickpicking, the fact itself really wouldn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.

Please understand, I'm not talking about him being Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised or even the ultimate personification of Ice and Fire. I'm merely talking about the happenstance of his birth. Why tease it so badly if, in the end, it's likely going to end up irrelevant?

I guess my real question is, how does GRRM go about MAKING Jon's birth and his mystery parents actually relevant to the story...

The storyline has a structure. I think we can find a clue in a conversation between Tyrion and Oberyn. T states what at the begginning, we live the lifes that are our parents are prepared, and then we go taking control, and finally, we prepare our children's life. (not literal)

I'm re-reading and in in the first prologue the Others are introduced.

Inmediately, some characters are shown, and we know of a love triangle Robert-Lyanna-Rhaegar.

My interpretation is that,at the start of the book the world is shaped as an aftermath of the deeds of R-L-R generation. As they hadn't reached a stable settlement, they end up with the Five King War, many of them paying with is own life.

Meanwhile, the generation of Daenerys, Jon, etc. struggles to make its own way but, in the end, they have to face their own fate, probably fighting the Others.

This would be the structure in a nutshell, we could see then the many details.

As for the dynastic rights, I don't think they matter. Afa the action goes, both Daenerys or Jon have earned their authority, thanks to the special powers they were born with and the way they've strengtened through suffering, and overcoming difficulties.

I don't know what the task of a PwtP is suppsed to be, but I guess it has mauch to do with defeating the Others than with winning a crown, imho.

Excuse my awful typing

[LightSpectra]

Personally I think there is textual evidence to support the theory that the otherwise highly-respected Rhaegar was suffering from Bipolar Disorder; a form of mental illness.

Perhaps you could share then. All I recall is him being referred to as a very melancholy person. I don't recall any commentary on his random bouts of manic energy, or the notion that crowning/abducting Lyanna was a snap impulsive decision.