R+L=J v.47

[Alia of the knife]

Any chance of a reset on the good-natured attempts to help? 8 pages back was the old thread, so I know I for one, had not braved reading through the 46 earlier iterations and have NOT seen much good-naturedness on this one when there was disagreement. I have a history on Harry Potter boards, so while I'm new HERE, I know that the tone set by the veterans carries everyone on a higher level or drags them down into anything goes. I don't mean to be a stinker, but I have seen quite a few unfriendly comments on these boards and if we'd peer correct a little, it just would be a nicer place. I REALLY want to talk about these books with other people who love them, but the mother in me wants to bang some heads together when I see that. Everything can and should be said nicely, even when we disagree, and in writing, we cannot assume tone carries over, so if you're joking, give some sign. I find </sarcasm> is effective.

I agree people should keep things in perspective. It's great to feel passionate about a work, or a particular character, but they are fictional characters, and a real person is on the other end.

Well in GOT when Ned and Robert are talking about assassinating Dany, Robert acknowledges what Aerys did to Brandon and Rickon as well as Rhaegar 'kidnapping' Lyanna :

"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children . . . it would be vile . . . unspeakable . . . "

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar . . . how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

So I think it was a bit of both for Robert but Aery's actions is the thing that gave justification to the rebellion. Also I think a lot of ppl get really lost in Robert's hatred for Rhaegar causing them to overlook/vastly understimate Robert's hatred for Aerys and the Targs in general. Remember Aerys Targaryen is the reason both of Robert's parents are dead, I think Robert's hatred for the royal family aka the Targs started much earlier than ppl realize. Also in regards to Lyanna, I honestly think if it was someone other than a Targaryen that vanished with Lyanna we would not have gotten the same reaction out of Robert, I mean don't get me wrong he would have still been pissed, but I don't think the anger would have even compared to the anger he feels for the Targs. In my opinion Robert's feelings for Lyanna years after the war was directly related to his hatred for the Targs, in fact I'd go as far as to say Robert's hatred for Rhaegar Targaryen and the Targs in general actually magnified his love for Lyanna. Out of all the men Robert's betrothed could have disappeared with, it had to be the one man(Rhaegar) who belonged to the house Robert had already hated the most(Targaryen) in my opinion. So that really magnified Robert's hatred for house Targaryen which also happened to magnify Robert's love for Lyanna, which I think was not actually love at all and instead was a maddening jealousy covered by the frontial appearance of love.

Deep down I think Robert knew Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna, and I think he just couldn't stand the thought that out of all the men and women in Westeros that fall in love, it had to be his own bethrothed falling in love with Rhaegar Targareyn and vise versa. Robert's parents gave up their lives to try to find Rhaegar a wife on the orders of Aerys, so to see Rhaegar abandon his own wife Elia for another woman who happened to be engaged to Robert(Lyanna)and Aerys seeming to condone it after everything Robert's parents did to try to find Rhaegar a wife probably infuriated Robert. I'm sure he saw Rhaegar's action as well as Aerys reaction towards it as a slap to the face considering Robert's parents died on the way back from a unsuccessful mission trying find Rhaegar a wife. Robert's parent's sacrifice was for nothing in Robert's eyes since Rhaegar ended up abandoning his wife for another woman anyway and Aerys seeming to allow it....

Aerys actions towards Brandon and Rickard was the last straw for Robert, after all Ned was like a brother to him so I'm sure it effected him realizing that Aerys was not just responsible for killing his parents(though not on purpose) but was also responsible for killing the father and brother of the man he thought of as a brother himself(Ned) which were both caused by something related to Aery's son Rhaegar.

Thats an astute analysis.

I also think your correct in that Robert knew the truth deep down, and I think his remark to Ned about Rhaegar actually having won because he had Lyanna now, and he had Cersei, suggests that moment of clarity.

I don't know that Robert hated Aerys (or Rhaegar) because his parents died in an accident. He never says anything to suggest that. But I agree he hates House Targ. He hates Rhaegar for what he "did" to Lyanna. He even vowed to kill Rhaegar for it, and did. He hates Aerys for backing Rhaegar's play and for killing Rickard and Brandon. He deposed Aerys for it.

But if you think about how the Rebellion was sold, it probably involved both. "look at these Targs, they run off with your daughter (or sister or fiancé) and when you complain they murder you. Then there is this dramatic single-combat on the Trident that everyone (including both Robert himself and Viserys) think was all about Lyanna. I think the abduction of Lyanna was probably some of the most powerful propaganda in the Robert/Ned arsenal and probably it gained them a lot of support.

I agree with that up to the term "propaganda," as the connotation is that they knew "the truth," but used abduction as a political leverage to gain support.

Lyanna became the symbol rather than the cause.

We as readers can extrapolate from between the lines in the text that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, but for all we know, Lyanna may have actually been abducted, even as she loved Rhaegar, hence the text stating she was taken at swordpoint, and in the controversial, hated App., it's says Rhaegar enlisted the aid of Whent and Dayne to take her.

But I don't think we have any evidence prior to Neds arrival at the TOJ that they knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar, but rather sincerely thought the worst, incuding Brandon given that he raced off for the place he felt sure Rhaegar was, which was KL.

[corbon]

I don't get your point at all. GRRM is the one who has Robert saying he vowed to kill Rhaegar for abducting Lyanna and that he followed through on that vow. You are saying that is a lie told by Robert. I am just saying it might be a lie or it might be the truth. How am I guilty of trying to invent something different than what we are told in the text?

Robert probably did vow that, its a very Robert sort of vow, isn't it?

What you invented was this

2. The heir to Winterfell and The Lord of Storm's End respond by threatening Rhaegar's life.

3. Aerys responds by ordering the deaths of The Lord of Storm's End plus The Lord of Winterfell and his two heirs.

4. Jon A., Robert and Ned call their banners

i) There is no evidence Robert knew at this early stage. Nor that his vow came this early.

ii) Aerys did not order the death of the Lord of Winterfell, nor at that stage the death of the Lord of Storms End. And certainly not in 'response' to Robert threating Rhaegar's life.

iii) Ned and Robert were not part of the initial banner calling that was Jon Arryn alone.

[Jon Icefyre]

This does not tally with Robert seeming to be a core Targ loyalist at Harrenhal. He's drinking heavily with Rhaegar's ex-squire, and he supports King Aerys when Aerys declares the KotLT no friend. that doesn't seem to be a man who hates the Targaryens for the death of his parents, at sea.

I get that its possibly Robert could blame the Targs for the death of his parents, but that is merely a possibility, without any real evidence and doesn't fit Robert's earlier behaviour.

No, IMO Robert is just a big man with few brains (or rather, little will to exercise them beyond war) but a big heart, so when he's in, he's all in. Once he had to go to war, and he did, in order to make himself feel better about Lyanna he demonised the Targs, and being Robert, ended up totally indoctrinated by his own bullshit.

He was also said to be talking trash about Aerys at the TOH to Jon Arryn so I think you're point is kind of moot. Also all Robert wanted to do was unmask TKOTLT with Richard Lonmouth to see who it was, I don't think he had any real ill will towards the knight. Aerys was the one who wanted him arrested I'm not sure Robert wanted the same thing...

[Jon Icefyre]

But if you think about how the Rebellion was sold, it probably involved both. "look at these Targs, they run off with your daughter (or sister or fiancé) and when you complain they murder you (or try to). Then there is this dramatic single-combat on the Trident that everyone (including both Robert himself and Viserys) think was all about Lyanna. I think the abduction of Lyanna was probably some of the most powerful propaganda in the Robert/Ned arsenal and probably it gained them a lot of support.

Do you honestly think that Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna would be used as a more effective propagana than Aerys selecting fire as his champion in Lord Rickard's trial by combat and making Brandon watch while he does it?

[corbon]

He was also said to be talking trash about Aerys at the TOH to Jon Arryn so I think you're point is kind of moot.

Quote please?. It would indeed invalidate the point but I don't think its true.

[J. Stargaryen]

Sorry, but you don't get to invent stuff, thats GRRMs job. It could have happened, but there is no evidence it did, since we are told something very different. A pig may have flown past, but there is no reason it did.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It's obviously okay to "invent" theories, but you can't then "invent" facts to perpetuate those theories. I don't know if this specifically applies to the conversation here, but certainly as a point in general.

[Twinslayer]

Robert probably did vow that, its a very Robert sort of vow, isn't it?

What you invented was this

i) There is no evidence Robert knew at this early stage. Nor that his vow came this early.

ii) Aerys did not order the death of the Lord of Winterfell, nor at that stage the death of the Lord of Storms End. And certainly not in 'response' to Robert threating Rhaegar's life.

iii) Ned and Robert were not part of the initial banner calling that was Jon Arryn alone.

If you agree that Robert made the vow when he learned of the abduction then we're just talking about timing -- when did Robert learn of Lyanna's abduction and when did Aerys learn of Robert's threat.

It seems clear that Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard because Brandon responded to Lyanna's abduction by threatening to kill Rhaegar. And, if Aerys knew about Robert's threat to kill Rhaegar, that explains why he ordered Robert's death. Next, he ordered Ned's death either because of Brandon's threat, because of Robert's threat or both.

Finally, when Jon Arryn called his banners, he had The Lord of Storm's End (Robert) and The Lord of Winterfell (Ned) with him. I can't imagine that he would have made the decision in his own. -- the three of them had to have agreed to do it together. Otherwise, this would suggest that Robert's and Ned's first acts as Lords was just to surrender their sovereignty to Jon Arryn.

Anyway, I am not making this up. I am drawing fair inferences from what we are told explicitly in the text. So you can disagree with my conclusions -- and I realize that I may be wrong -- but I am am not just making this up.

[Twinslayer]

Do you honestly think that Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna would be used as a more effective propagana than Aerys selecting fire as his champion in Lord Rickard's trial by combat and making Brandon watch while he does it?

No, I think that both were effective propaganda.

No Lord wants a King who might burn a lord who ticks him off without trial.

But no Lord wants the King whose heir will abuse his daughter. That is why the Tyrells murdered Joffrey.

And the fact that Rhaegar just disappeared after Lyanna's abduction coupled with the long Targ history of madness probably helped the rebels' propaganda campaign.

[corbon]

No Lord wants a King who might burn a lord who ticks him off without trial.

When will people pay attention?

Rickard was not 'burned without a trial'.

Rickard was burned acting as champion at a trial, Brandon's trial, and losing.

Rickard did not tick off Aerys, he merely claimed trial by combat for Brandon, as was his right, ad elected to be Brandon's champion himself.

Aerys cheated in the trial.

[Ygrain]

Sorry to disrupt, could someone fish out where GRRM says that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany? I'm having Brandon incest on hands /facepalm/

[Alia of the knife]

Sorry to disrupt, could someone fish out where GRRM says that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany? I'm having Brandon incest on hands /facepalm/

Good lord! :uhoh:

[Twinslayer]

When will people pay attention?

Rickard was not 'burned without a trial'.

Rickard was burned acting as champion at a trial, Brandon's trial, and losing.

Rickard did not tick off Aerys, he merely claimed trial by combat for Brandon, as was his right, ad elected to be Brandon's champion himself.

Aerys cheated in the trial.

Come on. You can't seriously be suggesting that Rickard and Brandon got a trial? Rickard and Brandon were summarily executed. Aerys pretended this was a trial but everyone who knew what happened knew it wasn't.

And it is important to note that not everyone knew what really happened. It is clear Catelyn just thinks that Brandon was killed, until Jaime tells her about the fake "trial." So the general population did not even know there was even a pretence of a trial.

[nirolo]

Sorry to disrupt, could someone fish out where GRRM says that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany? I'm having Brandon incest on hands /facepalm/

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

have fun!

[Ser Creighton]

And as I said to Lady Mary, add Cremora to that and it completes the toxic swill.

You can pound that powdery poison with the flat of your spoon all day long, and still pools of that muddy, oozy crap floats to the top as if its daring you to consume it.

I know, because everytime I go back home to see my eldery Aunt, she proudly makes it for me, poo-pooing that fancy Starbucks stuff, (honeslty, I'd settle for Dunkin' Doughnut). :stillsick:

The things we do for love.

As a child growing up in Winterfell old Nan used to tell me a tell of the great beast. "There came a loud crack like thunder and a voice said come and see. And I beheld a pale cup the drink within was called Sanka and hell followed with it." "You shall know this beast by the signs." she said to me. "It will be marked by an orange lid and the price tag on the back of the lid shall read 6.66. Sanka the Anti-coffee."

Alright some interesting post going on, time to enter the game. Now where can i be most disruptive.

[Ser Creighton]

I go with..."it could had been avoided if he just didn't kill Rickard"...Brandon after all DID commit treason by demanding for the crown prince to "come out and die" so he could be punished.

Even so it could be avoided if Aerys didn't make a mockery of a trial by combat defying all the laws and customs of westeros and if he didn't demand the heads of inoccents who did nothing to him and had nothing to do with the present matter.

Let's say....Aerys wants to execute Brandon for treason, Brandon then ask for a trial by combat with Rickard as his champion....Hightower or Jaime fight for the crown and kill Rickard in a fair trial by combat.

Aerys kills Brandon and leaves Ned and Robert alone.

Ned would be pissed? most likely....would he have a reason to revolt?...nope...all the trial process was legal.

Well he probably would revolt as Aerys called for Neds head. By the way people forget this, Aerys executed all of Rickards men, all 200 of them. Also being a king is not the do what ever you want credit card. He has his own laws to follow, Rhaegar had no business with Lyanna, the royals don't just get to run around taking whatever the please.

[Ser Creighton]

Ya agreed Lyanna was most definitely a factor in the rebellion but Aerys was the real reason. If the war was started strictly because of Rhaegar 'kidnapping Lyanna." Then I think Rickard Stark would have called in his banners the moment her found out his daughter was kidnapped. The fact that he went to KL on Aerys command having not called in his banners tells me Rickard was hoping to talk things out/negotiate, which in hindsight was obviously never possible on the account of Aery's madness.

It was the catalyst all wars have them.

I don't think it was just that talking to Aerys would not of worked. But the fact that Rhaegar was not there and nobody new where he was. It makes it look bad for him as well. But maybe if Rhaegar had been there they could of talked it out. You know her brother and father probably hoped to find her there, to see her alive, when they don't see her, they are probably going ot presume the worst.

[Ygrain]

Good lord! :uhoh:

http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/1040

have fun!

Not much, I'm afraid:

"Or Jon was born earlier then "GRRM" said he was in whatever email or Q&A he answered. Sometimes people count the months wrong.

Either way."

Forgive me if I go snarky when I see someone claim that they are right while the frikking author is wrong.

[Ser Creighton]

That's the show though - I don't think we have any indications of Howland Reed being a greenseer in the books.

It's in the books. Bran asked Jojen if his father could do it and he said no.

[Ygrain]

Well he probably would revolt as Aerys called for Neds head. By the way people forget this, Aerys executed all of Rickards men, all 200 of them. Also being a king is not the do what ever you want credit card. He has his own laws to follow, Rhaegar had no business with Lyanna, the royals don't just get to run around taking whatever the please.

Then you should probably read about the manners at Louis XIV's court - Targs might actually seem quite modest.

[corbon]

Come on. You can't seriously be suggesting that Rickard and Brandon got a trial? Rickard and Brandon were summarily executed. Aerys pretended this was a trial but everyone who knew what happened knew it wasn't. And it is important to note that not everyone knew what really happened. It is clear Catelyn just thinks that Brandon was killed, until Jaime tells her about the fake "trial." So the general population did not even know there was even a pretence of a trial.

The facts are facts.

Brandon did get a trial, or so Jaime says, and he was there. Rickard asked to turn it to a trial by combat, and named himself champion.

Only then does Aerys cheat.

What the general population thinks is unknown, probably wildly variant from place to place, and not particularly relevant. Jaime was there. He is an unbiased eye-wtiness, friendly to neither side.

Well he probably would revolt as Aerys called for Neds head. By the way people forget this, Aerys executed all of Rickards men, all 200 of them. Also being a king is not the do what ever you want credit card. He has his own laws to follow, Rhaegar had no business with Lyanna, the royals don't just get to run around taking whatever the please.

I'm not sure this is true. He executed the small group men who rode with Brandon (bar one) - treasonous as their actions were, and their fathers, who were probably legally responsible for their actions, but all we know of the 200 who rode with Rickard is that they rode south and never came back. Whether they were executed, imprisoned, escaped and fought with Ned, released and fought with Ned, we have no idea.

It was the catalyst all wars have them. I don't think it was just that talking to Aerys would not of worked. But the fact that Rhaegar was not there and nobody new where he was. It makes it look bad for him as well. But maybe if Rhaegar had been there they could of talked it out. You know her brother and father probably hoped to find her there, to see her alive, when they don't see her, they are probably going ot presume the worst.

Why does it look bad for him?

The one thing we can guarantee it does, is make stupid inflamatory actions like Brandons's useless and pointless, and therefore probably not happen. Just Brandon is more stupid than could be reasonably imagined.

And while Brandon may have hoped to find her there, he never mentioned her. Neither did Rickard, when he came south much later.