R+L=J v.47

[Ser Creighton]

Okay then.

I can go to work in comfort knowing the Starks didn't roll that way :stillsick:

Just a little afraid new and disturbing information had come in to cause the worry, I was up way too late, lol.

There is word that a theory is going to be debunked when Martins latest book comes out. It is suppose to have a historical timeline. That could be that theory going bye bye.

[Jon Icefyre]

The debate is does definition conform to reality?

While standing on top of a tower at his castle a great king is being amused by his crazy fool. The fool tells the king if you eat this magic bean it will give you the gift of flight. The King laughs Tis only a bean and you are only a fool. But the fool insists ah my lord but a magic bean, and oh what a bean, look at is shine look at it sheen oh me oh my oh what a bean. A bean a bean a magic bean the gift of flight tis what you dream. Oh my good fool if it was such a bean why have you not eaten it yourself. Oh my lord, you have the right, you have the rule, for your the king and I'm your fool. The king laughed and smiled and took the bean from the fool. There you see I cannot fly. Oh me oh my twas not a lie, to the edge, to the edge you must go, if you wish to soar where eagles go. Hahaha the king bellowed oh good fool, if only to amuse you as you have amused me for so long. The king stood at the edge of the tower and spread his arms like wings. You see, I cannot fly. The fool then pushes the great King off the top of Tower and the king falls to his death. When asked why he pushed the King off the tower the fool replies, "because I'm a crazy fool." Did you really believe that the king would fly? "He flew, he flew, the king did fly, he flew into the ground to die. So you really believed a bean would make him fly? Hehehehe the fool giggled "who's the fool now?"

Is it a technicality? Only if your the person not being pushed from the tower. You call it a trial, I call it an execution. What actually worries me is that some peoples definition of a trial is an execution. You can call a sinking ship a submarine but that does not make it one. The Mad king may have thought it was a trial, but he's mad. Do you think Rickard thought it was a trial?

And I'll end it with that, as I don't see any point in a entrenched debate.

Ya I agree with you on this one, it's comparable to some of the tactics ppl used in the Salem witch trials where they would give a suspected woman a broom toss her off a cliff and if she flew up riding the broom then she was witch but if she didn't then she obviously wasn't. Sure ppl called it a trial, but can you really say it was as oppose to an execution?? I mean how the hell can someone fight fire in a trail by combat?

[Ser Creighton]

No you're not forgetting and your conclusions about the timeline are sound. The thing about the SSM is that it establishes Jon's birth relative to Dany's. Mtn Lion laid it out nicely in the previous thread: Rape of Rhaella/Danaerys conceived on the night Aerys executed Chelsted. New Hand (pyromancer) lasted 2 weeks, per Jaime's recollection- he killed him the day of the Sack. That put's Dany's birth at Sack + 8.5 months, Jon's at Sack to Sack +3 weeks (at most, to allow for rounding off of months) I think we are given that Easter Egg as a way of establishing that no one but Rhaegar could have been the father of Lyanna's child. It's simple math (well, a bit of biology too ;)) and I agree with Ygrain- what's up with posters arguing their ideas are more likely to be true than the words of the author?

Biology????? Not sure what you mean. My theory is based on if Jon could find the stork that delivered him this could all be solved. Where do storks go is the real question?

[Snark_Tamer]

Biology????? Not sure what you mean. My theory is based on if Jon could find the stork that delivered him this could all be solved. Where do storks go is the real question?

Oh, excellent thought--there probably WAS a midwife involved. The Kings Guard were probably sorely equipped to deliver babies. I mean I know Lyanna died in childbirth, but unless Jon was really early, they had to know a midwife would be needed, so they would have supplied her with one when they hid her away. Is THIS who Wylla is? Wylla was the wet nurse, but maybe that, also, was part of the ruse. A way to hide Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby until 9 months after the wedding. Of course that second part is speculation, but I think the presence of a midwife is a pretty solid conclusion.

[MtnLion]

It sure seems to me that the baby came more than nine months after the wedding. Ned doesn't think of Rhaegar as dishonoring his sister is a hint, but the nail in the coffin is that the Kingsguard present to a man think that he is legit.

[Snark_Tamer]

It sure seems to me that the baby came more than nine months after the wedding. Ned doesn't think of Rhaegar as dishonoring his sister is a hint, but the nail in the coffin is that the Kingsguard present to a man think that he is legit.

I agree their presence signifies a legitimate baby. What we don't know is if they know how many months pregnant Lyanna is. They are ALSO the King's Guard, so it's possible they are in on whatever Rhaegar ordered. By this time, Elia and her children have been killed, yes? So even if they KNEW he was technically conceived before the marriage, they ALSO know Rhaegar meant him to be legitimate.

[LadyMary]

If Rhaegar truly meant to supplant his father, why would he run away with or abduct the daughter of the Warden of the North?

If I remember correctly Varys told Aerys that Rhaegar was looking to gain support at Harranhall. Do we even know if that is true? Rhaegar's comments to Jaime before he road to the Trident seems to support the idea that he was looking to dethrone his father, but...

Are his actions the actions of a man that is truly looking to become the locus of power?

He astounds the crowd at HH by laying the roses in Lyanna's lap. It was a shocking move based on Ned's memories. Granted a year or so passes before he takes Lyanna, but why would he supposedly work to solidify a powerbase and then throw it all away to run away with a woman? He seems to go into hiding while the realm falls to pieces.

My theory is that Rhaegar was suffering from Bipolar Disorder. That would explain his bouts of productivity and seeming rationality, with intermittent bouts of depression (i.e., long solitary trips to Summerhall to write sad, sad songs) and mania (i.e., fighting his way to victory at HH and crowning a woman not his wife as QOLAB in front of the assembled masses, then running off with her a year later. In other words, he wasn't thinking rationally. But he also wasn't mad in the same way as his father. From Wikipedia (for what its worth):

• At the lower levels of mania, such as hypomania, individuals appear energetic and excitable and may in fact be highly productive. At a higher level, individuals begin to behave erratically and impulsively, often making poor decisions due to unrealistic ideas about the future, and may have great difficulty with sleep. At the highest level, individuals can experience very distorted beliefs about the world known as psychosis. Individuals who experience manic episodes also commonly experience depressive episodes; some experience a mixed state in which features of both mania and depression are present at the same time. Manic and depressive episodes typically last from a few days to several months and can be interspersed by periods of "normal" mood.
  

Rhaegar may have been intending to take some kind of action to stabilize and salvage the Targaryen legacy in the face of his father's growing madness, but if it turns out my theory is correct, he was not always rational himself even though he meant well.

[Jon Icefyre]

My theory is that Rhaegar was suffering from Bipolar Disorder. That would explain his bouts of productivity and seeming rationality, with intermittent bouts of depression (i.e., long solitary trips to Summerhall to write sad, sad songs) and mania (i.e., fighting his way to victory at HH and crowning a woman not his wife as QOLAB in front of the assembled masses, then running off with her a year later. In other words, he wasn't thinking rationally. But he also wasn't mad in the same way as his father. From Wikipedia (for what its worth):

• At the lower levels of mania, such as hypomania, individuals appear energetic and excitable and may in fact be highly productive. At a higher level, individuals begin to behave erratically and impulsively, often making poor decisions due to unrealistic ideas about the future, and may have great difficulty with sleep. At the highest level, individuals can experience very distorted beliefs about the world known as psychosis. Individuals who experience manic episodes also commonly experience depressive episodes; some experience a mixed state in which features of both mania and depression are present at the same time. Manic and depressive episodes typically last from a few days to several months and can be interspersed by periods of "normal" mood.
  

Rhaegar may have been intending to take some kind of action to stabilize and salvage the Targaryen legacy in the face of his father's growing madness, but if it turns out my theory is correct, he was not always rational himself even though he meant well.

Ummm Idk diagnosing Rhaegar with Bipolar Disorder seems a bit extreme, I mean Jon Snow seems to be described in the books as having a somewhat similar type melancholy mood that Rhaegar had and I don't think anyone would label Jon as Bipolar. Did Rhaegar make some extreme and in hindsight bad decisions at times absolutely but I don't think that gives him a disorder. There seems to be an obssesion on the this forum with adding some sort of disfuction or mental disorder to every Targ we hear about, and sometimes we just need to accept the fact that there were indeed some very mentally healthy and normal Targs in history that just made some bad decisions.

[corbon]

I agree their presence signifies a legitimate baby. What we don't know is if they know how many months pregnant Lyanna is. They are ALSO the King's Guard, so it's possible they are in on whatever Rhaegar ordered. By this time, Elia and her children have been killed, yes? So even if they KNEW he was technically conceived before the marriage, they ALSO know Rhaegar meant him to be legitimate.

Conception isn't what matters for bastardy, its birth - whether the parents are married (or have been) at the time of the child's birth.

How is Twinslayers ‘inventing stuff’ any greater than assuming:

I put an interpretation on a fact, Twinslayer invented a bunch of new facts to conform to his interpretation.

Corbin, I get that you know this stuff well. But you also have decided your interpretation is the only accurate one and are quite rude in your assertions of it. YES, Twinslayer used a little verbal shortcut, but that was NOT not paying attention. And Jaime as an eye-witness STILL only says a ‘sort of’ trial—meaning he knew it WASN’T a trial—that is euphemism. Spin. What a Kings Guardman says to try to help himself live with what he’s seen.

Its rude, to assert the truth? :blink:

There was a trial, a farcical one. Everything in the text supports this.

1) Rhaegar not being expected DOESN’T admit anything, TRUE, but if you add a little psychology to Rickard and Brandon’s perceptions, it certainly LOOKS guilty. They have been TOLD Lyanna was kidnapped.

Actually, we have no idea what they have been told.

We know this:

Brandon tore off to Kings Landing and demanded Rhaegar "come out and die".

Brandon was arrested for Treason (which it was, whether provoked or not).

Rickard was summoned to KL to answer for Brandon's crimes, and came.

There is no actual mention of Lyanna or Rhaegar anywhere there, though it is obvious Brandon has some information about them, and that is what set him off, we don't know what that information was, where it came from or how accurate it was. Its obvious because thats the only real reason he could have for his actions, and also because Aerys tried to find Rhaegar but no one knew his location.

2) Not saying I don’t believe you on why Rickard was there, but do you have a source?

The text. It says outright the Rickard was summoned to KL by Aerys, to answer for his son's crime, and that he came, with 200 men - enough for a strong honour guard but not to defy the king.

If Rhaegar truly meant to supplant his father, why would he run away with or abduct the daughter of the Warden of the North?

Rhaegar's plans clearly changed over time.

At Harrenhal, he is rumoured to have been working to supplant his increasingly difficult father. But at the same time he is also still following prophecy, working on his three dragons with Elia, of which he has one so far, Rhaenys. Around the time of Harrenhal, he gets Elia pregnant with the second dragon he is working on, Aegon, who is born 9 months or so later. All good up to now.

However, Elia's difficulties with the birth mean that she is pronounced unable to bear more children without being killed. But Rhaegar still needs a third dragon, and now his wife cannot bear children.

NOW, he needs another wife - well, who better than that beautiful, brave, honourable, spirited Northern girl he honoured as KotLT at Harrenhal. And guess what, she's symbolically Ice to his Fire, suiting the Song of Ice and Fire that he knows from Prophecy.

Are his actions the actions of a man that is truly looking to become the locus of power?

I think that at Harrenhal, its not so much power he wants - he'll get that eventually anyway, but to ease the King, who is increasingly paranoid and at least partly demented, away from power. Possibly also it is a little about power, as he may need it, he believes, for prophecy, and the King distrusts him and may do something foolish due to his paranoia.

Eloping with Lyanna though, is surely about prophecy and the third head of the dragon (he believes). Power at this stage is much less important.

He astounds the crowd at HH by laying the roses in Lyanna's lap. It was a shocking move based on Ned's memories. Granted a year or so passes before he takes Lyanna, but why would he supposedly work to solidify a powerbase and then throw it all away to run away with a woman? He seems to go into hiding while the realm falls to pieces.

It was shocking, but not necessarily the huge political move people make out, and almost certainly not a romantic move, as at that stage Rhaegar was successfully working on his three dragon plan with Elia.

'All the smiles died' can be surprise and shock, because Rhaegar was famously dutiful and everyone automatically expected him to name his wife because of that (not because it is 'standard practice to make it a romantic statement. It is not standard practice, as KG name women when they win, and the original champions were going to name their sister/niece. It is nothing more than honouring that woman, though that can have a more romantic implication).

It could also be just the people around Ned, we don't know.

It is worth noting that there is no more gossip we hear about Rhaegar and Lyanna in any way until they disappear together a year or so later. Although there might have been some instant gossip when he named Lyanna, it seems like nothing further happened then, that gossip died down very quickly. We don't know.

As to the realm falling apart, yes it did, but no it should not have. Hiding is actually the most likely way to prevent it from doing so (with the basis that the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna is necessary), as nobody can do anything stupid with any hope of a productive result if the two of them are at an unknown location.

Unfortunately Brandon-the-moron did something extremely stupid without bothering to check whether it could be productive or not. And Aerys, who was paranoid but not, until then, quite that deranged upped the ante with a new level of madness, enough for rebellion.

[Twinslayer]

I am not terribly interested in prolonging the discussion of whether Brandon received a trial or not so I'll wrap up my contribution on that issue with this.

Ned evidently told Catelyn there was no trial.

Aerys evidently said what happened was a trial.

Jaime -- sarcastically -- said there was a trial "of sorts."

Readers can make up their own minds whether there was a "trial" based on Jaime's description of how the events unfolded. I choose to agree with Ned's interpretation, but Aerys' interpretation is certainly an alternative way to look at it.

The more interesting point is whether Rhaegar, Brandon or both committed a crime. If Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will it was obviously a crime. If she went willingly it was probably still a crime on Rhaegar's part to do it because he broke a betrothal. This is something that Joffrey had to clear with the High Septon and when Robb did it it on his own authority it got him killed. I'd say if a king can't do this kind of thing, a prince surely can't.

So what about Brandon? If he got a trial he would have had a decent argument that what he did was to challenge Rhaegar to a duel, which is probably okay--at least, Dunk fought a duel with some Targ princes and lived to tell the tale. Alternatively, you could say he threatened to assassinate Rhaegar, in which case it probably was treason.

Either way, I come back to my original point -- there was plenty of blame to go around and Rhaegar should get his fair share.

[UVA]

There is word that a theory is going to be debunked when Martins latest book comes out. It is suppose to have a historical timeline. That could be that theory going bye bye.

??? Do tell!

[J. Stargaryen]

??? Do tell!

It's going to be in the book Elio and Linda are helping with. It's apparently a theory which Elio was pleased to see die, as he hashtagged the word "glee" in the tweet. So not something like R+L=J. Probably something more along the lines of A+J=T, or maybe Aemon the Dragonknight being Daeron II's true father, instead of Aegon IV.

[Eurybia]

Do we know from where Lyanna was taken? Or have any idea? Winterfell or Riverrun likely, but I can't remember any statement about it.

[corbon]

Do we know from where Lyanna was taken? Or have any idea? Winterfell or Riverrun likely, but I can't remember any statement about it.

No, we do not.

It seems likely to be soemwhere around Harrenhal or Riverrun, but we don;t actually know. Thre seems no apparent reason to travel back to Winterfell , spending months each way, just for the sake of it when she needs to be in Riverrun for Brandon's wedding and also needs to spend ttime making the relationships and connections that will benefit her in the future as Lady of Storms End, and also learn how to be a 'Southern style' Lady, as opposed to a wild northern lass.

[finger]

I am not terribly interested in prolonging the discussion of whether Brandon received a trial or not so I'll wrap up my contribution on that issue with this.

Ned evidently told Catelyn there was no trial.

Aerys evidently said what happened was a trial.

Jaime -- sarcastically -- said there was a trial "of sorts."

Readers can make up their own minds whether there was a "trial" based on Jaime's description of how the events unfolded. I choose to agree with Ned's interpretation, but Aerys' interpretation is certainly an alternative way to look at it.

The more interesting point is whether Rhaegar, Brandon or both committed a crime. If Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will it was obviously a crime. If she went willingly it was probably still a crime on Rhaegar's part to do it because he broke a betrothal. This is something that Joffrey had to clear with the High Septon and when Robb did it it on his own authority it got him killed. I'd say if a king can't do this kind of thing, a prince surely can't.

So what about Brandon? If he got a trial he would have had a decent argument that what he did was to challenge Rhaegar to a duel, which is probably okay--at least, Dunk fought a duel with some Targ princes and lived to tell the tale. Alternatively, you could say he threatened to assassinate Rhaegar, in which case it probably was treason.

Either way, I come back to my original point -- there was plenty of blame to go around and Rhaegar should get his fair share.

To summarize:

There was a mummer's farce of a trial.

Could you all agree on this?

[finger]

It's going to be in the book Elio and Linda are helping with. It's apparently a theory which Elio was pleased to see die, as he hashtagged the word "glee" in the tweet. So not something like R+L=J. Probably something more along the lines of A+J=T, or maybe Aemon the Dragonknight being Daeron II's true father, instead of Aegon IV.

There's plenty of theories to be debunked, It won't be only one.

As to the line of A+J=T, I'm re-reading the first chapters of the series and I'm surprised that they're laden with hints on the plot. Let's see.

The expert on the topic is someone else, but I feel the setting drinks much from celtic sources. In such cultures it was very important the relation between uncle and nephew, till the point that a mother's brother was often more devoted to the boy's education that his own father, if I'm not wrong.

Of course, you can aplly it to Ned-Jon. but I'd like to stress the first chapter with Jon as a POV.

He's been put aside of the official family, by Cat notion (I can guess with hindsight that Ned wouldn't risk that Robert could have a talk with Jon, find Lyanna's features in him, or whatever). He seats with common people and drinks his dismal away.

But first, he notices Tyrion, who is depicted with a hair so blonde that it's almost white (This is a Targaryen feature, rather than the Lannister molten gold)

Then, he receives the visit of two elder to him. Both ar extremely kind to him, sympathetic, helpfull, and giving him good advice. And both notice Ghost, I don't know is this latter has a meanning or it's just that a white silent red eyed direwolf pup was most noticeable.

First is uncle Benjen, who even calls him "son", for Jon's rage.

Then it comes uncle Tyrion. Jon felt strangely relieved when he spotted him, and they had the kindest conversation, all the more surprising since we had just been told there were old feuds between both houses (Stark and Lannister).

At the end, Tyrion walks into the hall's light, and casts a shadow, and in the last line Jon thinks that for a moment he seemed tall as a king.

In sum, I don't think this is the theory you're looking for? It might have to do with some weird though about Rhaegar fathering Ashara's son.

Btw, shouldn't your name be Targstark?

[finger]

I agree their presence signifies a legitimate baby. What we don't know is if they know how many months pregnant Lyanna is. They are ALSO the King's Guard, so it's possible they are in on whatever Rhaegar ordered. By this time, Elia and her children have been killed, yes? So even if they KNEW he was technically conceived before the marriage, they ALSO know Rhaegar meant him to be legitimate.

I have many problems with the ToJ scene.

I seem to be only one who find it strange to find three KG keeping the gate, without a scort.

They should have been sent there by Rhaegar. But they were meant to obbey the king, and Rhaegar was the crown prince. He was no doubt an important person but not the one in charge. It was Aerys whe gave the orders. Sure it can be explained somehow, but it's not straightforward.

Then, they refuse to walk away. It was Lyanna's brother who came, what did they fear? Whatever it was, facts show that their fears would be unfunded, because no harm came to the dwellings of the tower from Ned. Whom were the trying to protect, if any, and what from?

Unless they fancied to fight a dwell above all, for honour sake, no matter what was happening into the tower.

I can't tell what of the above explanations is the more unbelievable.

[Ygrain]

I have many problems with the ToJ scene.

I seem to be only one who find it strange to find three KG keeping the gate, without a scort.

They should have been sent there by Rhaegar. But they were meant to obbey the king, and Rhaegar was the crown prince. He was no doubt an important person but not the one in charge. It was Aerys whe gave the orders. Sure it can be explained somehow, but it's not straightforward.

Aerys gave the orders only if he could reach them. Dayne and Whent were accompanying Rhaegar during the supposed "kidnapping", and apparently were assigned to him as his bodyguards, taking his orders in Aerys' absence. Then they all moved to ToJ where Aerys couldn't command them. Then, Hightower joins them after he is sent to find Rhaegar and fetch him to KL. At this time, Rhaegar is to become the Commander of the royal army, and unless Aerys issued a direct order that Hightower is to come back with him, Rhaegar is perfectly entitled to assign Hightower to guarding the ToJ, and Hightower can obey, as the KG duty in KL is performed by Martell, Selmy, Darry and Jaime.

As to why there are only the KG: ithe ToJ was a secret location, and the secrecy its main defence. The more people knew of it, the greater the risk of an information leak, both to the Rebels and to Aerys, who definitely wouldn't miss the chance to use Lyanna against Ned and Robert as well as against Rhaegar to keep him in check.

Then, they refuse to walk away. It was Lyanna's brother who came, what did they fear? Whatever it was, facts show that their fears would be unfunded, because no harm came to the dwellings of the tower from Ned. Whom were the trying to protect, if any, and what from?

Unless they fancied to fight a dwell above all, for honour sake, no matter what was happening into the tower.

I can't tell what of the above explanations is the more unbelievable.

Lyanna's brother is a leader of the Rebellion, whose best friend killed Rhaegar and condoned the murder of his children. Even if Ned himself meant no harm to Lyanna and her baby, he is honour-bound to tell Robert (his new king, to whom he owes fealty) about another heir of Rhaegar's, thus putting Jon in mortal danger from the Lannisters and Robert himself. Plus, even if Ned could be convinced to keep Jon's existence secret, he wouldn't support his claim for the throne.

[dragontamer]

No, we do not.

It seems likely to be soemwhere around Harrenhal or Riverrun, but we don;t actually know. Thre seems no apparent reason to travel back to Winterfell , spending months each way, just for the sake of it when she needs to be in Riverrun for Brandon's wedding¹ and also needs to spend ttime making the relationships and connections that will benefit her in the future as Lady of Storms End, and also learn how to be a 'Southern style' Lady, as opposed to a wild northern lass.

1. Why? All the others did travel back.

I’ve seen it written so many times before but always failed to grasp the notion behind it that states that the most possible location was Harrenhal. I can only assume it is believed so because it suits better the theory, for it would make it difficult to work the technicalities of an abduction from Winterfell. Other than that I see no reason why Lyanna should stay back while her three male siblings traveled back to Winterfell or Eyre, leaving her alone. If Lyanna wanted to learn “the southern way” she would go to Riverran (where her future sister in law was) or Eyre (where her brother and betrothed were), but somehow I doubt that she would care enough to do so or believe that Robert would mind.

[finger]

Lyanna's brother is a leader of the Rebellion, whose best friend killed Rhaegar and condoned the murder of his children. Even if Ned himself meant no harm to Lyanna and her baby, he is honour-bound to tell Robert (his new king, to whom he owes fealty) about another heir of Rhaegar's, thus putting Jon in mortal danger from the Lannisters and Robert himself. Plus, even if Ned could be convinced to keep Jon's existence secret, he wouldn't support his claim for the throne.

In a nutshell, they didn't let Ned pass, because they didn't trust him. It makes sense.

On second thoughts, Lyanna herself seemed to be affraid when begging Ned. It had to be about Jon, she was dying.

And, as you put it, on top all that we konw, keeping his promise to Lyanna involved bretraying his king and friend. Ned had to cheat his more beloved people. It had to be very hard.

You've convinced me, or as stated in the novels terms: I yield.

This leaves open the question of: why did Ned go to Starfall? He could have sent Dawn with Westeros Parcel, or whatever. I reckon he wanted to have a word whit Ashara, but this belongs to another thread, I fear.