R+L=J v.47

[finger]

Edric Storm is named after who? The names do not have to be exact, just look at the Names of Dany's dragons she named them after three people, but the names are a little different. Now I am pretty sure Robert new Eddards nickname. Of course Cersie would not let him name their/her kids, but I am guessing he picked Edric for Ned. Nobody is allowed to use Eddard, it carries the weight of to much awesome. You don't want to burden you child with that level of awesome.

It's not Edric Storm, but Edric Dayne that we are talking about. I said the Daynes wouldn't bear to dub him Ned if they had bad feelings or bad memories regarding Ned Stark.

It's hard that he killed Arthur Dayne, but a man could say it was matter of honour. If he had also brought the tidings that made Ashara kill herself, I reckon it's more than enough to them to avoid that nickname for a couple generations, or more.

I don't think Robert cared much about any of his 16 bastards. It even might be some Florent who name Edric Storm, who knows why.

As a token, his offcial children's names were obviously chosen by Cersei.

[Ygrain]

Greyscale does not come from the water, it comes from contact with Greyscale and even then you don't always get it. The bloody flux is spread through water.

Strictly speaking, neither comes from water as such, but both can be contracted from infected water, or at least that is my reading of Tyrion's incident.

Edric Storm is named after who? The names do not have to be exact, just look at the Names of Dany's dragons she named them after three people, but the names are a little different. Now I am pretty sure Robert new Eddards nickname. Of course Cersie would not let him name their/her kids, but I am guessing he picked Edric for Ned. Nobody is allowed to use Eddard, it carries the weight of to much awesome. You don't want to burden you child with that level of awesome.

Is it mentioned anywhere that it was Robert who named his bastard, and not his Florent mother? I don't recall this ever discussed. Names are usually derived from a common root, and their similarity does not relate to anythng special between their bearers.

[Stann]

On a slow re-read of GoT and came across this line which, under the circumstances, seems like an extremely obvious clue:

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

Hard to believe he'd be dreaming of his actual mother if it is, indeed, Lyanna. I'm not sure how memories work when someone is literally fresh from the womb. I'm just amazed clues like this were slapping me in the face on my first read through and it still never occurred to me that Eddard Stark might not be his father.

[Alia of the knife]

Edric Storm is named after who? The names do not have to be exact, just look at the Names of Dany's dragons she named them after three people, but the names are a little different. Now I am pretty sure Robert new Eddards nickname. Of course Cersie would not let him name their/her kids, but I am guessing he picked Edric for Ned. Nobody is allowed to use Eddard, it carries the weight of to much awesome. You don't want to burden you child with that level of awesome.

Well, you make a good point too. (I'm such a "waverer").

Perhaps Eddard is the Northern form for the Southern Edric. :dunno:

Anyway, and as I said this purely speculation, I would not be surprised if we learned that some such marriage negotiations might be made between House Stark and House Dayne, especially in light of what I suspect went on between Brandon and Ashara.

Stark reparations to House Dayne for that dishonor might have culminated in an agreement that Arya go to Starfall even over any objections from Cat though she'd be thinking it would about Neds dishonor of Ashara.

And it's certainly a better match than the chinless Frey. :stillsick:

[Snark_Tamer]

On this topic of Targareans and not being fireproof but Dany surviving fire... That other read is interesting, but I submit that Muri was not the only magic in that pyre... the DRAGONS have magic, too--and there are signs before that that the EGGS sensed something about Dany--so perhaps it is not that DANY is protected from flame so much as the dragons can choose to protect her if they wish--when she is burned, she has mistreated them--abused them. So maybe they've withdrawn her protection from flame.

Or maybe they can choose to channel the magic of another magician to their 'mother' if they choose. I will go along with Dany's magic only happening when another magician is present, but it is also when there is a dragon present and there is a lot of evidence for dragon magic.

[nirolo]

On a slow re-read of GoT and came across this line which, under the circumstances, seems like an extremely obvious clue:

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

Hard to believe he'd be dreaming of his actual mother if it is, indeed, Lyanna. I'm not sure how memories work when someone is literally fresh from the womb. I'm just amazed clues like this were slapping me in the face on my first read through and it still never occurred to me that Eddard Stark might not be his father.

I'm curious about this quote, and another quote where Jon dreams of going down the crypts of WF.

I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway [...]

I believe your quote, combined with the quote I added, shows Jon maybe possessing the ability akin, but less powerful to Bran's: the ability to communicate with the past.

This is partly based on a hunch, and partly based on an observation made in the Jon Re-read thread where someone suggested maybe Jon is the first among his siblings to warg with his direwolf.

A less romantic explanation is that Jon is raised no differently than his siblings; he enjoyed all the perks of noble birth. So his dream of a highborn mother could simply be a product of his environment and his way of explaining why as a bastard he is treated so differently from all the other bastards of the Seven Kingdoms.

ETA: people who do this on their phones deserve a medal.

[finger]

Well, you make a good point too. (I'm such a "waverer").

Perhaps Eddard is the Northern form for the Southern Edric. :dunno:

Anyway, and as I said this purely speculation, I would not be surprised if we learned that some such marriage negotiations might be made between House Stark and House Dayne, especially in light of what I suspect went on between Brandon and Ashara.

Stark reparations to House Dayne for that dishonor might have culminated in an agreement that Arya go to Starfall even over any objections from Cat though she'd be thinking it would about Neds dishonor of Ashara.

And it's certainly a better match than the chinless Frey. :stillsick:

I think their marriages have to do with Lord Rickart "southron ambitions".

We are given an idea of a Norh rather isolated. Then there's like a gathering of higher houses. Brandon is betrotred to a Tully, A Stark and a Baratheon are sent to foster with Arryn. Lyanna is betrothed to a Baratheon.

Not being experts in Westerosi history, one man can think that something was in the move.

[finger]

On this topic of Targareans and not being fireproof but Dany surviving fire... That other read is interesting, but I submit that Muri was not the only magic in that pyre... the DRAGONS have magic, too--and there are signs before that that the EGGS sensed something about Dany--so perhaps it is not that DANY is protected from flame so much as the dragons can choose to protect her if they wish--when she is burned, she has mistreated them--abused them. So maybe they've withdrawn her protection from flame.

Or maybe they can choose to channel the magic of another magician to their 'mother' if they choose. I will go along with Dany's magic only happening when another magician is present, but it is also when there is a dragon present and there is a lot of evidence for dragon magic.

Fireproof or not, she seems to have a bond with her dragons.

We've seen that Drogon was not shy of roasting and eating anyone close enough, but he doesn't mean to harm Dany. And, in the end, he goes and search for her.

Maybe he's like a rebel teenager; he wants his space, and makes some mishaps just to be noticed, but in the end, he loves his mom.

[Jon Icefyre]

Fireproof or not, she seems to have a bond with her dragons.

We've seen that Drogon was not shy of roasting and eating anyone close enough, but he doesn't mean to harm Dany. And, in the end, he goes and search for her.

Maybe he's like a rebel teenager; he wants his space, and makes some mishaps just to be noticed, but in the end, he loves his mom.

Ya I agree that she obviously has some sort of bond with her Dragons, however the point is in a Aerys style trial by combat I would take his champion fire over Dany anyday haha. Meaning she's not fireproof.

[finger]

Ya I agree that she obviously has some sort of bond with her Dragons, however the point is in a Aerys style trial by combat I would take his champion fire over Dany anyday haha. Meaning she's not fireproof.

But that seems to be clear. The hatching of the eggs had to do with blood magic, it was one-off

[J. Stargaryen]

But that seems to be clear. The hatching of the eggs had to do with blood magic, it was one-off

Fire and Blood. It's how you hatch dragons.

[UVA]

I'm curious about this quote, and another quote where Jon dreams of going down the crypts of WF.

I believe your quote, combined with the quote I added, shows Jon maybe possessing the ability akin, but less powerful to Bran's: the ability to communicate with the past.

This is partly based on a hunch, and partly based on an observation made in the Jon Re-read thread where someone suggested maybe Jon is the first among his siblings to warg with his direwolf.

A less romantic explanation is that Jon is raised no differently than his siblings; he enjoyed all the perks of noble birth. So his dream of a highborn mother could simply be a product of his environment and his way of explaining why as a bastard he is treated so differently from all the other bastards of the Seven Kingdoms.

ETA: people who do this on their phones should deserve a medal.

Perhaps it's both. Jon wants to know who is mother is/was (for all he knows she could be alive, right?) and that desire would almost certainly play out on a subconscious level in his dreams. (I like your suggestion that he would tend to believe that his mother was highborn because that is the context from which he was reared.) But there's a large consensus the two passages you and Stann cite should be interpreted as further clues in support of the theory that Lyanna is his mother.

[Ygrain]

Perhaps Eddard is the Northern form for the Southern Edric. :dunno:

I doubt that. Edwin, Edmund, Edward are different names, not forms of one of them, either. Were it Tolkien, I'd definitely consider this as a possibility, but didn't GRRM say that he is not a linguist?

Fire and Blood. It's how you hatch dragons.

Yes. The recipe was there the whole time, and none of the Targs figured its real meaning.

- Though, one has to wonder what exactly happened at Summerhall.

[Stann]

Perhaps it's both. Jon wants to know who is mother is/was (for all he knows she could be alive, right?) and that desire would almost certainly play out on a subconscious level in his dreams. (I like your suggestion that he would tend to believe that his mother was highborn because that is the context from which he was reared.) But there's a large consensus the two passages you and Stann cite should be interpreted as further clues in support of the theory that Lyanna is his mother.

I also like that suggestion based on his upbringing, only Catelyn certainly never had "kind eyes" when she was looking at Jon. If the one interaction they had in GoT was any indication, it wasn't ever anything but loathing. Of course, this wouldn't preclude other staff at Winterfell looking at him and treating him this way, but the staff definitely aren't "highborn".

If anything, it might just be some subconscious wish fulfillment.

If R+L=J does, indeed, turn out to be true, though....I'm going to feel like the dumbest person on the planet for not seeing it the first couple of times I read it! Especially with clues all but spelled out like this!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes. The recipe was there the whole time, and none of the Targs figured its real meaning.

- Though, one has to wonder what exactly happened at Summerhall.

I favor the idea that it also has something to do with female involvement. Targs stopped hatching dragons after the Dance, when women were removed from the succession. What if that is also when they stopped giving eggs to female children?

[J. Stargaryen]

I favor the idea that it also has something to do with female involvement. Targs stopped hatching dragons after the Dance, when women were removed from the succession. What if that is also when they stopped giving eggs to female children?

I've toyed with ideas like this myself. I just haven't put anything together. Somehow the treatment of Targaryen females backfired on the family.

[Ser Creighton]

One thing I've learned while participating in this forum is that I'd better be wary with the first impression I took when I read the books, and that, coming a doubt, it's good to check the sources. Let me share my findings.

Daenerys is described as having "silver-pale hair"

Jon depicts the Lannister as:

Cersei, "long golden hair"

Jaime, her twin, "tall and golden"

Tyrion, "lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white"

Myrcella, "her hair a cascade of golden curls"

Tommen, "white-blond hair"

Joffrey, "a thick tangle of blond curls"

Then Tyrion's and Tommen's hair are alike, what seems to add to the relation uncle-nephew so present in the book. I recall that Tyrion was fond of Tommen as well.

As far as the theory goes, I'd say the hair is not a clue. T-T could take after Joanna (?), the same way Jon and Arya took after their "aunt" Lyanna.

As for the greyscale, I recall JonCon regretting to have saved Tyrion, as if he blamed his greyscale on it. That is, he got the GS when he put his hand into the river to take Tyrion out.

Again, JonCon is not a maester and he can be wrong with his diagnosis: there are such deceits in the books.

Ha it's not deceit, greyscale is explaned in the books, he got when it he stuck his hand in the water, because the creature/person with Greyscale had a hold of Tyrion. He seperated them and saved Tyrion's life. The chance he would of gotten greyscale was up in the air as it doesn't always infect people. Lemore bathed in that river every morning. Nobody really knows what causes it, but it's spread via contact. It can go into some form of remission like with Stannis's daughter. Jon Con never took any treatment for the Greyscale, Tyrion did. They use limes and scalding water. You can also remove the infected appendage, it may stop it but not always. It's a wierd disease, reminds me of a bizzaro form of leprosy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I've toyed with ideas like this myself. I just haven't put anything together. Somehow the treatment of Targaryen females backfired on the family.

I'm sure it has something to do with what Maester Aemon told Sam about dragons and gender. Maybe after coming to Westeros the Targs gradually forgot about the balance of male:female necessary to hatch a dragon. Dany's dragon hatching pyre had fire and blood as well as and masculine and feminine, an element the tragedy at Summerhall lacked. Like you though, I haven't put a ton of time into unravelling it :dunno:

[Ygrain]

I favor the idea that it also has something to do with female involvement. Targs stopped hatching dragons after the Dance, when women were removed from the succession. What if that is also when they stopped giving eggs to female children?

Could be - and I wouldn't be suprised if it took a female to hatch the eggs.

But, Summerhall really gives me creeps - sorcery and treason, what the hell happened there?

[Ygrain]

Ha it's not deceit, greyscale is explaned in the books, he got when it he stuck his hand in the water, because the creature/person with Greyscale had a hold of Tyrion. He seperated them and saved Tyrion's life. The chance he would of gotten greyscale was up in the air as it doesn't always infect people. Lemore bathed in that river every morning. Nobody really knows what causes it, but it's spread via contact. It can go into some form of remission like with Stannis's daughter. Jon Con never took any treatment for the Greyscale, Tyrion did. They use limes and scalding water. You can also remove the infected appendage, it may stop it but not always. It's a wierd disease, reminds me of a bizzaro form of leprosy.

I doubt Lemore bathed anywhere mear the source of infection, though.