R+L=J v.47

[finger]

When it comes to Ed yes they are all in fact related. Feel free to look it up.

Adalheit is a girls name and Adalbert is a boys name. That's why they are not related, the roots still are as they are both german and both mean the same thing in german. Adal means noble or precious, don't matter if your a boy or a girl. The reason they are not varients of each other is because one was created to be a girls name and one a boys.

Albert and Norbert do not share a root. In English Ed is always Ed, it always means the same thing in German Adal always means the same thing. Alistair is greek and Albert is German. I should have mentioned you need to take the origin on the name into account. Different countries devloped names in different ways some countries just said a name means this or that. Didn't matter what was written. But that is not how Ed........ was developed. If your mixing boys and girls names and names of different languages your generally going to get different meanings.

Ed is english. Now take Norbert and Robert, both are german, Norbert = Northern brightness, and Robert = Bright Fame. Now these names are not varientsbut they are related, can you see where bright comes from?

Names can be really, really tricky, and there is a lot to take in but in the case of Ed, I was speaking of Ed in old english.Take Edward and Eduardo, Eduardo means wealthy guard and Edward means wealthy guard. Or Edgar means wealthy spear.

I didn't really mean to speak for all names and languages I was only talking about Ed or Eddard. Gender, Surname, language, special meaning (some names were given certain meanings over time unrelated to the spelling, or language) I should not have generalized it that much.

Again I am only talking about Ed and the Ed's of English origin. I have found Eddard as a surname but not a first. However Martin gives us some clues as to the origin of the name and how he used. First Everyone in Westeros speaks english for some reason. Martin does not list this as a translation, so common = english. Second I have Ed which of course is English in origin. But his nickname is the real revealer Ned is either a varient or a nickname of just about every from of the Eds out there. Given Eddard has an English root and uses the English either nickname or varient of Ned, I can assume it derived from the English name Edward. Edric by the way and you are going to find this crazy, but it also happens to be of English origin. All the varients of Edric mean the same thing rich and powerful, and Ed as explained can mean Rich or Wealthy.

Edric of course is tied to both Ed and Richard one name of German and one of English the translation matches as well Ed meaning weakthy or rich and Rich oddly enough being from the german meaning powerful. By the way just for fun Rikard being a varient of Richard means powerful leader. Neds dad.

Ed and Edric have the same origins from the same language and share varients. However I should of not said it was a varient, it his however related and of an origin with Edward, Edmund, Edwin, Edgar etc. However in the books Martin did make them a varient when he stuck the nickname of Ned on Edric. Ned is the nickname for the 4 Ed's I just listed. Edric can of course be called Ed or Rick. Anyting with Ed can basically be called Ed, but Ned applies to those 4 specific versions of Ed. In his world he automatically relates them making them varients with Ned and the english root Ed. Then again in his world Ed could mean stinky, and ard cold mean feet.

And again As I said before I am not sure how much any of that matters. I am not sure Martin took every single character and went into origins and meanings, languages, varients, etc. What I can tell you is he is not an idiot. You got a kid named Edric form house Dayne telling a story about Eddard and Ashara, and both Eddard and Edric share the nickname Ned. Now it's either a clue to make you go "what the hell" or a red herring to make you go "what the hell" either way a lot of people went, what the hell?

And please no more name talk, you know what that is like. Honestly I was just having some fun with the name Ed and it's many variants, and related names. In the case of the books I don't think name and origins mean jack squat. Martin clearly wants to give the impression of something wierd going on with Eddard and house Dayne. We get into why characters named their kids this or that. But they didn't, Martin named all of them. And he clearly wants people to see a connection, the moment that character said to call him Ned and said where he was from every reader of the books was paying real close attention to what he had to say.

I just raised the issue of a "Ned" Dayne as a hint that there was no bad feeling between Ned Stark and the Daynes.

Pulling the thread, I think there are some clues pointing that in fact there was a rather close relationship between houses Dayne and Stark.

Add that I don't believe Ashara's suicide, and... keep puling the thread.

(to be continued, I hope)

[finger]

Barristan was in love with Ashara himself, so I think he's probably less then objective about the matter.

Ashara loved SOMEONE, clearly. I'm not convinced it was Ned either (how long did they have to interact?), but you don't throw yourself off a tower unless you think you have a good reason.

Wars make plenty of widows, they don't normally kill herselves.

[finger]

Long story short: you've missed the point. Having a common nick for the name with the same element doesn't make them related (and yes, I am fully aware that Alexander is Greek, which is why I listed it), or variant or anything. Unless GRRM provides some more material for comparison (there is one Ned among the northerners in Stannis' host but I don't think his full name is given), one way or the other cannot be determined, especially with GRRM's love for purple salmons. Until then, claiming that Edric is a variant for Eddard, or that young Dayne was dubbed after The Ned, is unbased.

Not AFTER, but LIKE. If Ned stark had killed Arthur himself, and prompted Ashara's death, I don't think the Daynes were happy to hear the bloody nickname, not to say to dub one of them Ned.

It's a clue, I think.

[Ygrain]

Not AFTER, but LIKE. If Ned stark had killed Arthur himself, and prompted Ashara's death, I don't think the Daynes were happy to hear the bloody nickname, not to say to dub one of them Ned.

It's a clue, I think.

I think that the use of the nick suggests no ill will towards Ned but other than that, no hidden meaning to it. When young Dayne introduces himself to Arya, she thinks nothing special about him having the same nick.

[Ser Creighton]

You know on the topic of Ashara, Eddard, House Dayne and Jon, I had a thought. Now it seems like House Dayne who has doesn't really have a problem with Eddard at leastthey don't seem to have raised Edric to hate Starks and I think most of can agree they are passing on false information regarding Wylla. Don't really feel the need to cover Wylla and timelines and a woman in her third trimester riding hard to the Tower of Joy or even being with Ned at Starfall.

But given a recent discussion of the timeline on this thread, I went back to an old theory and started thinking about Ashara and for some odd reason Lysa Arryn popped into my head. Seems strange I know but here me out. Now I kind of trust most of the stated elements of the Knight of the Luaghing tree. Which indicate Ned and Ashara had a thing for one another and the Story of Edric Dayne. So going with the premiss of that being true, lets say the kids were in love. They probably hoped to be Wed, pre Lyanna going bye bye. So maybe they hooked up and she got pregnant and did in fact give birth to a still born child. And that got me thinking of Lysa and the effects being unhappy and the effect of miscarrages on her. Among other things Lysa showed signs of postpartum depression. Plus I think other forms of depression do to loss and of course her marriage to Jon which she didn't want to be in.

So lets say Ashara has a stillborn child and it was hers and Neds. It's going to effect anyone, at least I would think most of the time. But lets say she is getting buy and hoping she will wed Eddard and that they can try again. Maybe she really loved Eddard. But then the abduction happens or feel free to call it whatever you want. But Lyanna happens. And Ned has to wed Cat, we all know how that happened. So she gets word of this, and heart break number 2. Now we all have been down this road with the Ashara heartbreak, Selmy talks about it. But what if Ashara a sweet and nice young woman ended up going dow nthe Lysa path, not in reguards to killing Jon or anything. But in reguards to becoming unstable. What if in her mind she somehow convinces herself, maybe there is still a way for her Ned to be together and to have children together.

So at some point she returns to Starfall, ahead of Ned.Well ahead of Ned. And her family sees obviously something is wrong and she is clearly depressed and not really being rational but not really dangerous. After all she is young and dealt with two major heartbreaks recently. So Roberts rebellion is going and lets say Rhaegar is now at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. Lyanna is pregnant with baby Jon. So you have Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent. Trying to take care of a first time mother to be. Probably not the best thing in the world Rhaegar "I have read books" Arthur "I have a sword" Whent "I'm Batman" So Rhaegar and Arthur send to Starfall early on in the pregnancy, really early on for Nurse Wylla. Wylla comes to the Tower to take care of Lyanna, again this is early one in the pregnancy. And maybe Wylla stays there the whole time. She would have probably become rather close with Lyanna, one could even say maybe they became very close. So after months and months Rhaegar takes off for KL, shortly after that Lyanna gives birth to Jon.

Now I know a lot of people wonder about the bed of blood, but it really does not have to be from Jon being born that second. She could of gotten an infection, then a fever and even aneurysm. I am guessing the tower was probably not he best place for the baby and Lyanna may have been to weak to travel or she could of asked with the war gettng pretty bad that Wylla take Jon back to Starfall for safety. But lets just say she gives a good reason and they agree to have Wylla take Jon to Starfall. So she does, pretty sure she actually did wet nurse him, as she is a wet nurse and Jon would have needed one. So yeah that part of the story is true.

Now Wylla gets to Starfall and here comes Ashara and the rest of the Daynes. I don't think Wylla lied to the Daynes about anything. No real reason too as this is Arthurs family and he is in with the Prince. But she gets to Starfall and finds out Rhaegar is dead, and the war is lost. Now maybe she feels protective of Jon being his Nurse and seeng him into the world but also maybe she felt close with yound Lyanna.

Now maybe Ashara sees that little baby Jon and she knows the father is dead, and he is half Stark. And being a woman who lost a child, maybe she grows very attatched to Jon very quickly. Remember probably not thinking to clearly and this boy has Neds blood. So maybe she really takes to Jon with his grey eyes, and maybe a little dark tuft of dark. Maybe he is a real sweet baby (pre emo Jon). So a week or two after Wylla leaves Ned shows up. Shit goes down, Lyanna tells Ned about her baby and that he is at Starfall being taken care of. Ned of course makes some promises. Now Jon being at Starfall explains why Ned does not recall Jon in his dreams, because Jon was not there, and it explains why he took his sweet ass time getting there. Look he did a nice thing, but that would have taken two men a long time to tear down a tower and build graves. Jon would of died before he reached Starfall without a Wet nurse.

You know it also gives Ned a real good reason to return Dawn in person. So he takes care of the graves and he and Howland make for Starfall. Now it's not a one day ride to Starfall, so Ned and Howland probably stopped at a small village to eat, feed the horses and try to sleep. At that villiage Ned probaby pays a villiager to ride ahead and give a letter to the Ashara or The Lord or Lady of Starfall. Probably explains what happened and he is bringing back dawn. This explains how Ashara new he was coming and when to be waiting for him.

So after some days Ned gets to Starfall. Now this could be 2-3 weeks maybe even a month after Jon got there. And recently Ashara who has been having a rather tragic year, year and a half, found out she had this great little ball of joy who was an orphan and the blood of the man she loves. So maybe her attachment to Jon went from loving this sweet little baby to maybe being his new mom, and maybe she hopes to convinve Ned to stay with her and raise him and for him to absolve his marriage to Cat.

So maybe she tries and convince Ned and Ned may be tempted, but you know Ned. So then she pleads with Ned to leave Jon with her, she promises to take care him to love to raise him as her own. And maybe Ned can see what all this has done to her, the stillborn, he relationsip with him, the death of her brother, and all she has is this child that ties her to him and makes her a mother again. It's a little ball of love to replace that loss all the losses. And maybe Ned thought about it, but Ned made a promise and well, you know Ned. Maybe Ned explains this too her, and maybe even her family tries to help explain it to her. They may view the loss of Lyanna and Arthur as one tragedy, not Neds fault and both houses suffered an equal loss.

Maybe house Dayne offers to take care of little 7 pound 9 ounce little baby Jon and promise to make sure Ashara is watched and he would carry their name even.. But Ned explains his promise, and they respect that. Well most of them. And Ashara finally went over the edge because she could not keep Jon. And that's Neds real guilt, is he destroyed her, he didn't mean too, but he ended up taking everything she had.

So Ashara kills herself, maybe while Ned is still there. This probably broke Ned, so Ned goes and offers his own head blaming himself for all this. Now maybe Ned lucks out, maybe The Lord and lady of Starfall don't blame Ned, he too has been through the ringer, he lost is Father, brother, sister, and his love. And The Lord of Starfall gives Ned his life, not because it was very honerable what Ned did, but maybe they don't blame him. Maybe they are pretty rational and they blame Rhaegar and Aerys for the whole mess. Arthur was just doing what he was told and Ashara and Ned could have been together if not for Rhaegar and Aerys. So they gave Ned a pass. Probably didn't ever want to see him again because of the bad memories, but thought what the man did was nothing but honerable.

Wylla probably decided well she was going to protect Jon's secret because she liked the little guy and was very fond of his mother after their time together, and house Dayne protected the secret because Ashara loved baby Jon and because maybe they grew fond of him as well why he was there. They had enough death just like Ned and all decided they would do this one good thing together.

I don't know, it's a bit of theory, but there needs to be a reason for what appears to be Stark respect and the protection of Jon at house Dayne and bringing back a sword does not seem like a real balance between the loss of Arthur and Ashara.

[Ygrain]

I quite like the bit about Ashara suffering from depression and Jon's arrival reviving the old wound, I was thinking along this line myself. However: if Ned was the one who dishonoured her at Harrenhall, there is no way he wouldn't have tried to do the Right Thing and marry her as soon as she got pregnant - given there was a whole year between the tourney and the "kidnapping", plenty of time for such a move. Plus: Barristan holds Ned in high esteem - hardly the case if he thought that Ned was the one who dishonoured her.

[finger]

I think that the use of the nick suggests no ill will towards Ned but other than that, no hidden meaning to it. When young Dayne introduces himself to Arya, she thinks nothing special about him having the same nick.

I agree.

Other suggestions come from further hints in the text.

It's the way the story goes, you're given hints and clues, and you have to imagine the whole lot.

For instance, we can suppose Lord Rickart had "southron ambitions", because we know from Lady Barbray he didn't consent her wedding with Brandon, in order to betrothe him to an otherwise unknow Lady Tully. Then, we can imagine that a Dornish lady of a rather high house sworn to the Martells, was quite suit to a second son. But this just educated guess.

The point is that the built of the story encourages educated guesses, but it's funny.

[finger]

I quite like the bit about Ashara suffering from depression and Jon's arrival reviving the old wound, I was thinking along this line myself. However: if Ned was the one who dishonoured her at Harrenhall, there is no way he wouldn't have tried to do the Right Thing and marry her as soon as she got pregnant - given there was a whole year between the tourney and the "kidnapping", plenty of time for such a move. Plus: Barristan holds Ned in high esteem - hardly the case if he thought that Ned was the one who dishonoured her.

No, I'm sure Ned didn't dishonour her. He's too dutiful, honourful,... and too shy, to force her.

And, if Robb's behaviour with the Westerling girl is a clue, I think Ned would have obliged.

But I think that being the prompt of her suicide would be enough for her family to resent him. Even though there were no blame in him, his nickname would be stained. Just that.

And again, I don't remember any other suicide in the books, even though I can tell a lot of people who wanted to die. I gather that Westerosi didn't commit suicide, and I don't see how people could buy so easily into the notion that Ashara had thrown herself from a tower.

This is not Il Trovatore, this is Westeros.To judge their deeds we are given a clue, in something that is told to Dany, referrring the Dothraki: "They do not understand sin or shame as we do."

You mustn't use your own rules, but theirs.

[TheonGreyjoy]

You know on the topic of Ashara, Eddard, House Dayne and Jon, I had a thought. Now it seems like House Dayne who has doesn't really have a problem with Eddard at leastthey don't seem to have raised Edric to hate Starks and I think most of can agree they are passing on false information regarding Wylla. Don't really feel the need to cover Wylla and timelines and a woman in her third trimester riding hard to the Tower of Joy or even being with Ned at Starfall.

But given a recent discussion of the timeline on this thread, I went back to an old theory and started thinking about Ashara and for some odd reason Lysa Arryn popped into my head. Seems strange I know but here me out. Now I kind of trust most of the stated elements of the Knight of the Luaghing tree. Which indicate Ned and Ashara had a thing for one another and the Story of Edric Dayne. So going with the premiss of that being true, lets say the kids were in love. They probably hoped to be Wed, pre Lyanna going bye bye. So maybe they hooked up and she got pregnant and did in fact give birth to a still born child. And that got me thinking of Lysa and the effects being unhappy and the effect of miscarrages on her. Among other things Lysa showed signs of postpartum depression. Plus I think other forms of depression do to loss and of course her marriage to Jon which she didn't want to be in.

So lets say Ashara has a stillborn child and it was hers and Neds. It's going to effect anyone, at least I would think most of the time. But lets say she is getting buy and hoping she will wed Eddard and that they can try again. Maybe she really loved Eddard. But then the abduction happens or feel free to call it whatever you want. But Lyanna happens. And Ned has to wed Cat, we all know how that happened. So she gets word of this, and heart break number 2. Now we all have been down this road with the Ashara heartbreak, Selmy talks about it. But what if Ashara a sweet and nice young woman ended up going dow nthe Lysa path, not in reguards to killing Jon or anything. But in reguards to becoming unstable. What if in her mind she somehow convinces herself, maybe there is still a way for her Ned to be together and to have children together.

So at some point she returns to Starfall, ahead of Ned.Well ahead of Ned. And her family sees obviously something is wrong and she is clearly depressed and not really being rational but not really dangerous. After all she is young and dealt with two major heartbreaks recently. So Roberts rebellion is going and lets say Rhaegar is now at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. Lyanna is pregnant with baby Jon. So you have Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent. Trying to take care of a first time mother to be. Probably not the best thing in the world Rhaegar "I have read books" Arthur "I have a sword" Whent "I'm Batman" So Rhaegar and Arthur send to Starfall early on in the pregnancy, really early on for Nurse Wylla. Wylla comes to the Tower to take care of Lyanna, again this is early one in the pregnancy. And maybe Wylla stays there the whole time. She would have probably become rather close with Lyanna, one could even say maybe they became very close. So after months and months Rhaegar takes off for KL, shortly after that Lyanna gives birth to Jon.

Now I know a lot of people wonder about the bed of blood, but it really does not have to be from Jon being born that second. She could of gotten an infection, then a fever and even aneurysm. I am guessing the tower was probably not he best place for the baby and Lyanna may have been to weak to travel or she could of asked with the war gettng pretty bad that Wylla take Jon back to Starfall for safety. But lets just say she gives a good reason and they agree to have Wylla take Jon to Starfall. So she does, pretty sure she actually did wet nurse him, as she is a wet nurse and Jon would have needed one. So yeah that part of the story is true.

Now Wylla gets to Starfall and here comes Ashara and the rest of the Daynes. I don't think Wylla lied to the Daynes about anything. No real reason too as this is Arthurs family and he is in with the Prince. But she gets to Starfall and finds out Rhaegar is dead, and the war is lost. Now maybe she feels protective of Jon being his Nurse and seeng him into the world but also maybe she felt close with yound Lyanna.

Now maybe Ashara sees that little baby Jon and she knows the father is dead, and he is half Stark. And being a woman who lost a child, maybe she grows very attatched to Jon very quickly. Remember probably not thinking to clearly and this boy has Neds blood. So maybe she really takes to Jon with his grey eyes, and maybe a little dark tuft of dark. Maybe he is a real sweet baby (pre emo Jon). So a week or two after Wylla leaves Ned shows up. Shit goes down, Lyanna tells Ned about her baby and that he is at Starfall being taken care of. Ned of course makes some promises. Now Jon being at Starfall explains why Ned does not recall Jon in his dreams, because Jon was not there, and it explains why he took his sweet ass time getting there. Look he did a nice thing, but that would have taken two men a long time to tear down a tower and build graves. Jon would of died before he reached Starfall without a Wet nurse.

You know it also gives Ned a real good reason to return Dawn in person. So he takes care of the graves and he and Howland make for Starfall. Now it's not a one day ride to Starfall, so Ned and Howland probably stopped at a small village to eat, feed the horses and try to sleep. At that villiage Ned probaby pays a villiager to ride ahead and give a letter to the Ashara or The Lord or Lady of Starfall. Probably explains what happened and he is bringing back dawn. This explains how Ashara new he was coming and when to be waiting for him.

So after some days Ned gets to Starfall. Now this could be 2-3 weeks maybe even a month after Jon got there. And recently Ashara who has been having a rather tragic year, year and a half, found out she had this great little ball of joy who was an orphan and the blood of the man she loves. So maybe her attachment to Jon went from loving this sweet little baby to maybe being his new mom, and maybe she hopes to convinve Ned to stay with her and raise him and for him to absolve his marriage to Cat.

So maybe she tries and convince Ned and Ned may be tempted, but you know Ned. So then she pleads with Ned to leave Jon with her, she promises to take care him to love to raise him as her own. And maybe Ned can see what all this has done to her, the stillborn, he relationsip with him, the death of her brother, and all she has is this child that ties her to him and makes her a mother again. It's a little ball of love to replace that loss all the losses. And maybe Ned thought about it, but Ned made a promise and well, you know Ned. Maybe Ned explains this too her, and maybe even her family tries to help explain it to her. They may view the loss of Lyanna and Arthur as one tragedy, not Neds fault and both houses suffered an equal loss.

Maybe house Dayne offers to take care of little 7 pound 9 ounce little baby Jon and promise to make sure Ashara is watched and he would carry their name even.. But Ned explains his promise, and they respect that. Well most of them. And Ashara finally went over the edge because she could not keep Jon. And that's Neds real guilt, is he destroyed her, he didn't mean too, but he ended up taking everything she had.

So Ashara kills herself, maybe while Ned is still there. This probably broke Ned, so Ned goes and offers his own head blaming himself for all this. Now maybe Ned lucks out, maybe The Lord and lady of Starfall don't blame Ned, he too has been through the ringer, he lost is Father, brother, sister, and his love. And The Lord of Starfall gives Ned his life, not because it was very honerable what Ned did, but maybe they don't blame him. Maybe they are pretty rational and they blame Rhaegar and Aerys for the whole mess. Arthur was just doing what he was told and Ashara and Ned could have been together if not for Rhaegar and Aerys. So they gave Ned a pass. Probably didn't ever want to see him again because of the bad memories, but thought what the man did was nothing but honerable.

Wylla probably decided well she was going to protect Jon's secret because she liked the little guy and was very fond of his mother after their time together, and house Dayne protected the secret because Ashara loved baby Jon and because maybe they grew fond of him as well why he was there. They had enough death just like Ned and all decided they would do this one good thing together.

I don't know, it's a bit of theory, but there needs to be a reason for what appears to be Stark respect and the protection of Jon at house Dayne and bringing back a sword does not seem like a real balance between the loss of Arthur and Ashara.

Then why was the three kingsguard upholding their kingsguard vows at the tower if Jon wasnt there. I am certain that the king Jon was there when Ned and co arrived

[finger]

I don't know, it's a bit of theory, but there needs to be a reason for what appears to be Stark respect and the protection of Jon at house Dayne and bringing back a sword does not seem like a real balance between the loss of Arthur and Ashara.

I find a flaw in your story. Shouldn't Jon be at the ToJ, why in hell should the KG keep Ned from saying hello and farewell to his dying sister? Just to bugger him? well, and her. To show they didn't run? Nobody was asking them to run, just not to intermingle in other families' issues.

But, however it went, you point to the core: Stark-Dayne relations don't abide Ned prompting Ashara's suicide. It doesn't resist an analysis. There must be something else, we just have to discover it.

You say ninja'd, don't you?

[iceice_baby]

Here is my "theory" on this issue. Oh wait.... it's not a theory, it's more like a commentary on what happened in the books. Since I'm a nice guy though I'll also include the t.v series to justify my commentary on the facts.

Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Evidence....

Exhibit A.

Every character who speaks with the authors voice believes that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Judge comments on Exhibit A....

Does anyone know of any character, anywhere in all of the 5 books who doubts that Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark?

Exhibit B.

In the tv series, Dany never gets burnt by fire because she is a "dragon", where as Jon Snow does get burnt real bad.

Judge comments on Exhibit B....

Jon Snow also got burnt in the books, where as Dany did not. Hmmmm

Exhibit C.

All the "implied" stuff has already been shown in the tv series. For example, I never picked up on Renly donut punching Loras, but once I saw it on tv it made sense.

Judges comments on Exhibit C...

Yes I agree, good point.

Exhibit D.

Over analysis of single sentences in the books. Like honestly, that one sentence of a blue rose on the wall.... get over it. It could mean anything. Since when did Lyanna Stark have a monopoly on blue roses in the Seven Kingdoms? Does the blue rose have to be her son? Or could it be someone of her house, the Stark house getting revenge.

Judges comments on Exhibit D...

Yes. You raise a good point. By the argument of many readers, Arya is unable to get revenge for Robb, Bran or Rickon because she isn't their daughter. This is a rediculous thought of course.

So in conclusion, Jon is Ned's son

[Alia of the knife]

On the matter of whether Jon was at the Tower.

I think an alternative way to look at this is why keep a newborn in a place of sickness?

I'm not sure the KG would think in terms of wondering whether puerperal fever was contagious or not but might take the prudent action of removing Rhaegars last remaining heir to safety, taking the utmost caution.

It still doesn't have to negate why the KG are there and are fighting.

And the "they" who found Ned could be anyone brought on to serve in the Tower as I doubt Wylla would have done all the cooking too.

[iceice_baby]

I'm not sure the KG would think in terms of wondering whether puerperal fever was contagious or not but might take the prudent action of removing Rhaegars last remaining heir to safety, taking the utmost caution.

So tell me where GRRM mentions puerperal fever.

[FittleLinger]

Here is my "theory" on this issue. Oh wait.... it's not a theory, it's more like a commentary on what happened in the books. Since I'm a nice guy though I'll also include the t.v series to justify my commentary on the facts.

Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Evidence....

Exhibit A.

Every character who speaks with the authors voice believes that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Judge comments on Exhibit A....

Does anyone know of any character, anywhere in all of the 5 books who doubts that Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark?

Exhibit B.

In the tv series, Dany never gets burnt by fire because she is a "dragon", where as Jon Snow does get burnt real bad.

Judge comments on Exhibit B....

Jon Snow also got burnt in the books, where as Dany did not. Hmmmm

Exhibit C.

All the "implied" stuff has already been shown in the tv series. For example, I never picked up on Renly donut punching Loras, but once I saw it on tv it made sense.

Judges comments on Exhibit C...

Yes I agree, good point.

Exhibit D.

Over analysis of single sentences in the books. Like honestly, that one sentence of a blue rose on the wall.... get over it. It could mean anything. Since when did Lyanna Stark have a monopoly on blue roses in the Seven Kingdoms? Does the blue rose have to be her son? Or could it be someone of her house, the Stark house getting revenge.

Judges comments on Exhibit D...

Yes. You raise a good point. By the argument of many readers, Arya is unable to get revenge for Robb, Bran or Rickon because she isn't their daughter. This is a rediculous thought of course.

So in conclusion, Jon is Ned's son

Wow, that whole post is just...

Wow...

[Ygrain]

Here is my "theory" on this issue. Oh wait.... it's not a theory, it's more like a commentary on what happened in the books. Since I'm a nice guy though I'll also include the t.v series to justify my commentary on the facts.

Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Evidence....

Exhibit A.

Every character who speaks with the authors voice believes that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son.

Judge comments on Exhibit A....

Does anyone know of any character, anywhere in all of the 5 books who doubts that Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark?

Exhibit B.

In the tv series, Dany never gets burnt by fire because she is a "dragon", where as Jon Snow does get burnt real bad.

Judge comments on Exhibit B....

Jon Snow also got burnt in the books, where as Dany did not. Hmmmm

Exhibit C.

All the "implied" stuff has already been shown in the tv series. For example, I never picked up on Renly donut punching Loras, but once I saw it on tv it made sense.

Judges comments on Exhibit C...

Yes I agree, good point.

Exhibit D.

Over analysis of single sentences in the books. Like honestly, that one sentence of a blue rose on the wall.... get over it. It could mean anything. Since when did Lyanna Stark have a monopoly on blue roses in the Seven Kingdoms? Does the blue rose have to be her son? Or could it be someone of her house, the Stark house getting revenge.

Judges comments on Exhibit D...

Yes. You raise a good point. By the argument of many readers, Arya is unable to get revenge for Robb, Bran or Rickon because she isn't their daughter. This is a rediculous thought of course.

So in conclusion, Jon is Ned's son

And the point of this is supposed to be...?

So tell me where GRRM mentions puerperal fever.

A woman in fever dying after childbirth. Fever is a symptom of infection. Childbirth in low-hygienic conditions provides many portals of entry for infection. Unless GRRM had some evry specific condition in mind which hasn't been referred to in the books yet, puerperal fever is what killed Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

So tell me where GRRM mentions puerperal fever.

Your quite right, the Author does not, only that "the fever had taken her voice."

It's fan speculation, and could be anything, but her bed of blood, a common term used by Martin to refer to giving birth, accompanied by her fever suggests childbed fever.

Nonetheless, an unhealthy environment for any baby that might be there, so sending it to Starfall would be the safer recourse, especially since the hygiene is likely better there.

[iceice_baby]

So tell me where GRRM mentions puerperal fever.

Your quite right, the Author does not, only that "the fever had taken her voice."

It's fan speculation, and could be anything, but her bed of blood, a common term used by Martin to refer to giving birth, accompanied by her fever suggests childbed fever.

Nonetheless, an unhealthy environment for any baby that might be there, so sending it to Starfall would be the safer recourse, especially since the hygiene is likely better there.

umm yeah. I rest my case.

[Alia of the knife]

So tell me where GRRM mentions puerperal fever.[/color.

umm yeah. I rest my case.

Um, no. I was making an alternative argument that Jon being sent to Starfall does not negate the reason for the KG fighting to protect Rhaegars last heir.

I believe your trying to make the case despite all those who've come before you that you have the better argument to prove Jon is Neds son.

[FrozenFire3]

Wow, that whole post is just...

Wow...

You took the words right out of my mouth #trollfest :lmao:

On a side note.... The Tower of Joy. All we know of its toponymy originates in Ned's POV:

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

That incipit ('it was said') is deliberately vague. We know the place was top secret and I doubt any details about its recent history were common knowledge. I hardly believe the White Swords stopped to give Ned 'touristic' informations either. Same for Lyanna. She was barely hanging to life, trying to extract from Ned THE promise. Highly improbable she'd indulge him with romantic anecdotes. It was said... by who then? First after-the-events guess: one party of the notorious 'they-group' who found him clutching Lyanna's body. Willa maybe? Such a detailed account on her part would reinforce the theory of our elusive wetnurse being integral to the whole hiding plot. Second before-the-events guess: the mysterious informant who disclosed the secret location to Ned (Ashara?). This second possibility would entail that Ned had already a clear idea of what he'd find at the ToJ, shedding a very interesting light on his confrontation with the KG. Thoughts?

[nirolo]

On the matter of whether Jon was at the Tower.

I think an alternative way to look at this is why keep a newborn in a place of sickness?

I'm not sure the KG would think in terms of wondering whether puerperal fever was contagious or not but might take the prudent action of removing Rhaegars last remaining heir to safety, taking the utmost caution.

It still doesn't have to negate why the KG are there and are fighting.

Wait. Are you saying it is consistent with the evidence to have Jon sent to Starfall and yet having all 3 KGs left behind?