Heresy 52

[Black Crow]

Oh, I see... so this fits in that prediction you have about Fire having to deal with Fire, and Ice having to deal with Ice? I mean, let´s pretend that Dany sail through the Smoke Seas and she becomes AAR, ends whatever fire problem that it´s in Valyria, while Jon Snow destroys the unusual source of Ice magic in the Land of always winter, becoming the Last Hero?

That's exactly what I'm proposing. This is the Song of Ice and Fire, yet most people are fixating on the Ice. As we've discussed before, both need to be checked in order to return the world to balance. The two events may not be contemporary but as an event the Long Night has its counterpart in the Doom of Valyria. Both need to be resolved and I'm suggesting that rather than some climactic battle between Ice and Fire on the Trident or anywhere else the respective "champions", Jon the King of Winter and Danaerys the Dragon Queen must each bridle their own element; Jon in the Land of Always Winter and Danaerys in the Smoking Sea of Valyria.

[Iceborn]

That brings up a point about the doom of Valyria, do we have any idea what that was? also isn't Bran the "champion of ice" Jon is just the king.

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure where Bran does fit into this and suspect it depands on how encompassing Ice and Fire turn out to be in the end. Right now he's been snaffled by the Singers of the Song of Earth and the only thing that we can say with any certainty is thhat however closely they may turn out to be aligned with the Sidhe, being a Faerie race themselves, there is certainly no question of Bran being on the side of Fire and complicit if not instrumental in defeating Ice. Helping rein it in perhaps, but not upsetting what's left of the balance by destroying the Sidhe.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'm not sure where Bran does fit into this and suspect it depands on how encompassing Ice and Fire turn out to be in the end. Right now he's been snaffled by the Singers of the Song of Earth and the only thing that we can say with any certainty is thhat however closely they may turn out to be aligned with the Sidhe, being a Faerie race themselves, there is certainly no question of Bran being on the side of Fire and complicit if not instrumental in defeating Ice. Helping rein it in perhaps, but not upsetting what's left of the balance by destroying the Sidhe.

Bran kind of fits the third aspect of the Elemental Trio: Earth, Wind, and Fire* :cool4:

*Where Ice, as a take on the Storm and Air, fits in as Wind

[Toccs]

I think that Bran is the "catalyst for change" or "the spanner in the works" when it comes to the cycle.

When it comes to lack of balance within the cycle itself, I suspect that this imbalance has gone on for so long now that the imbalance has itself achieved a form of balance. It is characters like Bran, Jon, Arya and Dany who have seemingly been tapped to serve a particular side, that are going to shirk their roles and thus destroy the balance of the imbalance and bring about a true balance to the cycle. . . .or maybe I've just had too many beers :dunno:

[alienarea]

I'm not sure where Bran does fit into this and suspect it depands on how encompassing Ice and Fire turn out to be in the end. Right now he's been snaffled by the Singers of the Song of Earth and the only thing that we can say with any certainty is thhat however closely they may turn out to be aligned with the Sidhe, being a Faerie race themselves, there is certainly no question of Bran being on the side of Fire and complicit if not instrumental in defeating Ice. Helping rein it in perhaps, but not upsetting what's left of the balance by destroying the Sidhe.

I don't see the CotF as a faerie race. How do you come to this conclusion?

[nedhed]

I think that Bran is the "catalyst for change" or "the spanner in the works" when it comes to the cycle.

When it comes to lack of balance within the cycle itself, I suspect that this imbalance has gone on for so long now that the imbalance has itself achieved a form of balance. It is characters like Bran, Jon, Arya and Dany who have seemingly been tapped to serve a particular side, that are going to shirk their roles and thus destroy the balance of the imbalance and bring about a true balance to the cycle. . . .or maybe I've just had too many beers :dunno:

This is pretty much my take on things, I think that the "shirking" will actually be honorable and sacrificial and intentionally done, at least by someone, but I could see that not being the case. But, I don't think every protagonist is an anti-hero, I think at least one will be a classic hero. At this point, ASOIAF has so much content that it's created it's own tropes that people expect to be fulfilled, and one of those is that no one does a "great good" on purpose. I think that will be subverted by a measured embrace of the classic hero making a sacrifice trope, but i don't think that will be the only pivotal act, and I think it will be likely complemented by a non-heroic ac with unexpected consequences.

[nedhed]

I don't see the CotF as a faerie race. How do you come to this conclusion?

I could also use a link on this. I can see that the others, sometimes appearing as WWs, are a faerie race analogous to faeries of Celtic lore, but it seems that the COTF pre-date that race, especially if you try to define the relationship with reference to Celtic lore, which professes that the Fir Bog were defeated by the Faeries but ultimately entered a pact with them, in which they retained 1/3 of Ireland.

[Black Crow]

They're a Faerie race insofar as they are non-human and possessed of eldritch powers. They also live in Brughs (fairy hills) and latterly live in that strange world beyond the Wall. The point being that in our folklore there are several different and often distinct Faerie races and while the white walkers have been compared to the Sidhe they don't have a monopoly on Faerie. GRRM has after all adnitted that there is a link of some kind between them.

[Black Crow]

This is pretty much my take on things, I think that the "shirking" will actually be honorable and sacrificial and intentionally done, at least by someone, but I could see that not being the case. But, I don't think every protagonist is an anti-hero, I think at least one will be a classic hero. At this point, ASOIAF has so much content that it's created it's own tropes that people expect to be fulfilled, and one of those is that no one does a "great good" on purpose. I think that will be subverted by a measured embrace of the classic hero making a sacrifice trope, but i don't think that will be the only pivotal act, and I think it will be likely complemented by a non-heroic ac with unexpected consequences.

I think its more likely that the "hero" or heroes will achieve a resolution which doesn't involve going in sword in hand to slay the heathen as Mel (and all the other sheep) expects Azor Ahai to do.

Hence my twin suggestions that Jon will bridle the Sidhe by becoming King of Winter rather than by winning some great battle on the Trident, and that Danaerys' will be recognised as Azor Ahai not by defeating the Others but by finding her destiny in the Smoking Sea of Valyria.

[nedhed]

They're a Faerie race insofar as they are non-human and possessed of eldritch powers. They also live in Brughs (fairy hills) and latterly live in that strange world beyond the Wall. The point being that in our folklore there are several different and often distinct Faerie races and while the white walkers have been compared to the Sidhe they don't have a monopoly on Faerie. GRRM has after all adnitted that there is a link of some kind between them.

Right, to the extent that the westeros supernatural entities are based on Celtic lore, it seems that GRRM borrowed he pact between the fir bolg and the Tuatha Dé Danann and used it as the story of the pact between the first men and the COTF. This would appear to place the first men in the position of the Tuatha Dé Danann. However, it appears that the mythology of the Tuatha Dé Danann. most closely resembles that of the Others AND the COTF, because of being under hills. So I don't thing there's anything like a 1 to 1 relationship between ASOIAF's northern magic and celtic lore. I do think its a very heavy influence though.

[nedhed]

I think its more likely that the "hero" or heroes will achieve a resolution which doesn't involve going in sword in hand to slay the heathen as Mel (and all the other sheep) expects Azor Ahai to do.

Hence my twin suggestions that Jon will bridle the Sidhe by becoming King of Winter rather than by winning some great battle on the Trident, and that Danaerys' will be recognised as Azor Ahai not by defeating the Others but by finding her destiny in the Smoking Sea of Valyria.

couldn't agree more. but I think either or both will require a "breaking of vows" or "refutation of prophecy" that is intentionally done after recognizing that doing so is necessary to "save the world."

[HemoCorvus]

Anyway, I always thought there were 1000 white walkers because there were 1000 red priests - symmetry.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Right, to the extent that the westeros supernatural entities are based on Celtic lore, it seems that GRRM borrowed he pact between the fir bolg and the Tuatha Dé Danann and used it as the story of the pact between the first men and the COTF. This would appear to place the first men in the position of the Tuatha Dé Danann. However, it appears that the mythology of the Tuatha Dé Danann. most closely resembles that of the Others AND the COTF, because of being under hills. So I don't thing there's anything like a 1 to 1 relationship between ASOIAF's northern magic and celtic lore. I do think its a very heavy influence though.

There are not 1 to 1 relationships between any real world myth/folklore and any character/situation/locale/race within ASOIAF, and any who say so is being ignorant and not looking at all the available options.

Example: Robert is Zeus and Cersei is Hera. But Robert is also Arthur with Cersei being Gwenivere and Jaime being Lancelot, while Cersei is also Morgan le Fey with Joffrey as Mordred.

Example: Braavos is Venice; but Braavos is also Gondolin; and Braavos is, to an extent, the idea that is the USA (haven of freedom, impose that freedom on others)

Example: Bloodraven is Odin and he is (possibly) the Morrigan

Example: Littlefinger is Loki and he is Hades

The other way (wherein one real world reference informs multiple characters) can be used as well.

Example: Littlefinger is Loki, but so too, to an extent, is The Ned (Ned putting himself into the middle of things causes the chaos that ensues, hence him being the one who sows chaos a la Loki--Ned also is the father of Bran (Fenrir), Arya (Hel), and Jon (Jormungandr))

Example: Hel is epitomized by both Arya and UnCat.

In short, there are little to no one-to-one comparisons between anything in ASOIAF and the real world myths, folklore, history, and fiction that the series is heavily based on.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

That Moqorro description(which I totally missed in the books - is he a Caucasian??) makes me wonder if Mel isn't exactly the same without her whatchamacallit illusion.

(I think BC originally theorized she is really flesh made fire).

[nedhed]

i think Varys is the most loki-like figure in the series. Am I wrong?

[Black Crow]

That Moqorro description(which I totally missed in the books - is he a Caucasian??) makes me wonder if Mel isn't exactly the same without her whatchamacallit illusion.

(I think BC originally theorized she is really flesh made fire).

Indeed, it was probably arounf Heresy 49 and there was certainly a summary in Heresy 50 (link in the OP) demonstrating this by reference to the text. Without her glamour she almost certainly resembles an overdone Texas barbecue per Victarion's arm

[Tyryan Lannister]

i think Varys is the most loki-like figure in the series. Am I wrong?

While Varys definitely has a Lokiness to him, I would still put LF into the pigeonholed Loki--but as I stated above, they still are both Loki--and now that I think about it, they both also have some Hermes to them as well

[Black Crow]

Right, to the extent that the westeros supernatural entities are based on Celtic lore, it seems that GRRM borrowed he pact between the fir bolg and the Tuatha Dé Danann and used it as the story of the pact between the first men and the COTF. This would appear to place the first men in the position of the Tuatha Dé Danann. However, it appears that the mythology of the Tuatha Dé Danann. most closely resembles that of the Others AND the COTF, because of being under hills. So I don't thing there's anything like a 1 to 1 relationship between ASOIAF's northern magic and celtic lore. I do think its a very heavy influence though.

As Tyryan says there isn't an absolute correspondence between Celtic mythology and life beyond the wall. Simply saying that Jon ids Cu Chulainn doesn't work because while there are elements of such an identification there, there's also other stuff, and there's the Norse mythology in there as well. We can recognise the references and get a good feel for what GRRM is trying to achieve, but there's no point at which we can say something is going to happen or not happen because that's how it pans out in this story or that.

However as to the different Faerie races I do think that we can take note of a couple of points asnd these revolve around the question of pacts. A staple of Faerie folklore is the questions of pacts, alliances and allegiances between different races and kingdoms. I don't believe that the Children and the Sidhe are physically related. They are two different races, but GRRM has admitted there is some kind of connection between them and I suggest that like the Fir Bolg and the Tuatha there are old alliances and allegiances here. Ultimately while Bran, as I said has been snaffled by the Earth and is not the champion of Ice, he could find that thanks to those old allegiances he is on the same side against Fire.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And now for something completely different:

Not at all Heresy (or ASOIAF), but: a reporters account of the most recent Iditarod Race in Alaska--as fans of Northness, Cold, and Vast Nothingness, I feel that some of us here will appreciate it (and there are definite things that he describes about the geography and climate of the land that strike me as very important on influencing the geography and climate of The North/Lands-Beyond-the-Wall) http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9175394/out-great-alone