Heresy 52

[lokisnow]

Oh, I like this!

Direwolves seem to be quite scarse beyond the Wall. All the talk of them existing there, and not a single account from the NW rangers or the wildlings (unless I am missing something).

If you think of a sacrifice required to hatch dragons, I believe the fertility component was very important. We have MMD dying on the pyre, likely an allusion to sacrifice in fiery birth.

On the other side, the direwolf mother dies giving birth to the pups. So, is this an allusion to a possible human mother's sacrifice that brought the beasts back?

Ah, so that's what happened to Lyanna. Thanks, I've been wondering about that. ;)

I do love thinking of Ghost--the riddle is the name itself, hiding in plain sight!--as Cu Sidhe.

Which makes the connection of Jon to Sidhe all the stronger.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Nicely made and valid points that admittedly were tossed around couple of Heresies back, though not as fleshed out as your composition. This ties nicely into theories of how the warding was broken by Theon in Winterfell and Davos at Storm's End, thus speeding destruction of the former, and foretelling crumbling of the latter. On a relevant note, this echoes with the monumental research done by Bran Vras on various types of castles around Westeros, and I suggest you also take a look at his thoughts (cannot seem to place them now), if only to be amazed by the details and revelations this may bring.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html

[Profion]

Ghost and Shaggy fits nicely in the Cu Sidhe stuff... but I guess all Direwolves have this role... Another thing that ties the Stark children with the Sidhe Side.

[Black Crow]

The throwaway reference to "hellhounds" at the Nightfort is another that at once conveys direwolves aint cuddly and points to the significance of the place as a portal.

And again its one of these fundamental contradictions that underpins heresy. There are so many links between the Starks and the Ice, yet on the orthodox side of the forum Jon is seen as the champion of Fire who is going to defeat the Sidhe. How can the Starks represent Ice and yet lead the fight against it?

[Black Crow]

Oh I have to read this book. Crossing my fingers for a free online version :)

Best of luck, it was published in 2004 and is as chunky as ADwD. It is however a joy to read in itself. Its quite different on the surface from ASoIF but the parallels in the backstory are very close and easily recognised.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

It's probably been brought up re: direwolves but there's a nice fire/ice contrast with the dragons in that the dragons have to be forced to be bound to a master with blood magic.

And on that note, is that what Coldhands is? A combination of fire and ice magic? He would appear to be flesh made fire, only frozen and preserved.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Re the bold: Exactly--the antagonists in the series are those among Men (Bronze and Iron) who seek to manipulate Magic (Ice and Fire) so as to control Nature (Earth and Water).

B-e-a-uitiful put. We have discussed it before, but I don't remember being a simple put as man/magic/nature before.

gah BC changed his avatar, messing with my brain :bang:

Glad I wasn't the only one confused.

I saw this, and isn't this wrong? I believe GRRM is NYG fan not a NYJ. Not that laughing at the jets isn't a sport in and of itself.

http://helmet2helmet.com/2013/04/23/game-of-thrones-author-slams-jets-for-revis-trade/

[Black Crow]

Glad I wasn't the only one confused. [by Black Crow's new avatar]

Its the sigil of John Uskglass, the Raven King, heraldically; argent, a raven Volant sable – or if you want it in plain English a black crow or raven in flight on a snow white background. Change the background to “storm green” and you have the sigil of House Morrigen...

[Lorgius]

gah BC changed his avatar, messing with my brain :bang:

3 most shocking and confusing twists in ASOIAF experience:

1) Ned’s beheading

2) RW

3) BC changing avatar

For the night is dark and full of terrors… :drunk:

[Stark@heart]

Musings from another thread but may tie in here.

Speaking of the Citadel, we can see now that the Maesters and Oldtown are going to become more a part of the story. We have Sam there to earn his chain but no way he has the time so something is needed to send Sam and his new and somewhat trained friends back North and to the Wall.

Discussing the House of the Undying prophecies.. the 3rd to be exact. The Stone beast that rises from a tower breathing shadow fire.

I'm thinking this will happen in Oldtown and I also thought, could this be a reason for the Others to come South?

Are they after the wanna be Fire Priests & Alchemists that have gotten out of hand? Or did they see Dany and the real Dragons coming?

I think they're trying to take the fight to em, so to speak. So Ice & Fire battle and it's the end of everything.

The Children / Nature are the ones singing for balance or Life.

Interesting that the Last Greenseer is a Stark that is also a brother to a Targ / Stark.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Ahoy!

So, clearly I'm very new here, and I've only read the past two heresies in full (#50 was well compiled, thank you).

I just want to ask: If the Others aren't "evil," then what is the central conflict in ASoIaF? I'm not opposed to the Others being one player out of many, but any beings which raise their enemies as zombies have to be somewhere on the spectrum of evil. The notion of "balance" just doesn't strike me as compelling, from a narrative standpoint. Further, hasn't the text given us rather strong reasons to believe that Jon is indeed Azor Ahai? "I ask R'hllor to show me Azor Ahai, and all I get is Snow..." (paraphrased)

I don't expect Martin to give us a pat, obvious ending to the series, but I'm still inclined to believe that Jon is in fact some sort of hero who will make his name fighting the Others.

Also: Are we sure Victarion is "made of" fire? Is this how he's going to be able to blow the horn and live?

[Tyryan Lannister]

B-e-a-uitiful put. We have discussed it before, but I don't remember being a simple put as man/magic/nature before.

Glad I wasn't the only one confused.

I saw this, and isn't this wrong? I believe GRRM is NYG fan not a NYJ. Not that laughing at the jets isn't a sport in and of itself.

http://helmet2helmet...or-revis-trade/

He's both, but he is actually a Jets fan first and foremost (the whole "newbie going up against the big, established older brother" thing that the Jets had to deal with during their early years in the 60s is why)

[Tyryan Lannister]

3 most shocking and confusing twists in ASOIAF experience:

1) Ned’s beheading

2) RW

3) BC changing avatar

For the night is dark and full of terrors… :drunk:

Har!

[Tyryan Lannister]

I just want to ask: If the Others aren't "evil," then what is the central conflict in ASoIaF? I'm not opposed to the Others being one player out of many, but any beings which raise their enemies as zombies have to be somewhere on the spectrum of evil. The notion of "balance" just doesn't strike me as compelling, from a narrative standpoint. Further, hasn't the text given us rather strong reasons to believe that Jon is indeed Azor Ahai? "I ask R'hllor to show me Azor Ahai, and all I get is Snow..." (paraphrased)

Would you consider Death "evil"? No, because it has no place within this made up notion of morality. Yes, it is, within that concept of morality, "not good", but it also isn't technically "evil" either--it just is. It is an aspect of life--and without Death, Life wouldn't be able to exist, for a central component of Life is that it goes through the Cycle of Life, Decay, Death, and Rebirth--but you cannot have Decay and Rebirth without having Death; as such, Death is a very important aspect. The White Walkers are, at their most simplistic, Death Incarnate--not good, not evil, they just ARE.

As to the question of who the antagonists are, I refer you to me previous post here

Exactly--the antagonists in the series are those among Men (Bronze and Iron) who seek to manipulate Magic (Ice and Fire) so as to control Nature (Earth and Water).

And we can add in that really it is just those who seek to manipulate for their own purposes--Men function as both the protagonists and the antagonists, no one character is the "good hero who triumphs over evil" for all of the characters choose to partake in actions that are heroic and to partake in some actions that could be seen as villainous; The Song is complete once Man has triumphed over itself--which of course is not going to happen. And once the characters who survive the coming onslaught come to this conclusion at the end, I for one would see that to be bittersweet: they've realized what needs to be done to end this ongoing conflict, but they've also realized that they are powerless to stop it. And this whole notion of "no true good side, no true bad side" is exactly the type of anti-normal fantasy construct that Martin is trying to have his series become.

As to Jon as AA--the only indications of that being the case are 1) the (still technically a theory) idea that Jon is Targ+Stark and that as such the Targ means that he is with Fire and therefore opposed to Ice* and 2) Mel, who is definitely not always correct in her assumptions, and for me personally I hardly ever believe anything she says from the flames, for I have nothing but lack of esteem for her

*And this thing is a big factor for Heresy's existence. In this case, it completely ignores the fact that Jon is a Stark--it also ignores the fact that this series, particularly the magical Ice and Fire parts of it, are heavily influenced by the Celtic folklore and myth, and one of the most distinct aspects of Celtic myths compared to other European ones is the importance of the maternal lineage; so in the question of Jon being Ice and Fire, him being Targ and Stark, we have to ask "which one is more important"? Looking at the Celtic influences we get that the Stark-Ice side is more important; but beyond that, we already have our answer from the texts--the significance of Jon going Targ is that it puts him into the Game of Thrones aspect of the Song, but he has already discounted the idea of joining the Game when he refused Stannis' offer for the one thing that Jon wants more than anything else: Winterfell.

[Profion]

I was reading another thread that deals with Jon Snow and the references to Ressurection in a couple of Mythologies. It´s a very interesting thread, and on page 10 I suppose, someone pointed that in many mythologies there´s the presence of the Storm God fighting a Dragon like/ Sea monster like creature.

Another thing that points out for the Dragons not being the "good side" since they´re always seem as a chaotic creatures. And of course, the presence of a Storm representative on ASOIAF.

[nedhed]

yea, the central conflict is man vs nature, as it has been for the history of human existence. here it's represented as the seasons being all screwed up bc of man's manipulaiton of nature via magic.

more on direwolves and ice: the legendary first king of Norway is said to have had an army of men who wore the skins of wolves. as we know, there is a strong connection between Celtic mythology and Norse mythology.

Does anyone know where to learn more about the Fir Bolg? Legend has it that the Fir Bolg were the original inhabitants of Ireland. Then, they were displaed by the Tuatha Dé Danann, who are said to have learned the sidhe magic in the far north and then traveled to iceland in a mist. Interestingly, though the Tuatha Dé Danann defeated the Fir Bolg, they were so impressed with the Fir Bolgs' tenacity that they let them keep 1/3 of Ireland. Sounds a lot like the pact, no? Teh lore also has it that the Tuatha Dé Danann were driven into their mounds as a result of invaders from Iberia (a peninsula, not unlike what would have been the part of essos jutting toward Dorne.

Reading way to much into this, I would go on to suggest that the first men-COTF story is revisionist history. one thing that's never made sense is how in the hell the COTF were strong enough to break the arm of dorne, but not strong enough to defat iron and horses? Just as Celtic lore has it that the Celts are descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann, I would say that the true First Men, as in non-cotf humans, descended from the corrollarly "Others" way, way before the bronze age, and stayed in touch with the Sidhe magic from the far north. Then, a wave of true bronze age men arrived, and the farther north they went, the more likely they were to engage in "unholy" congress with the Sidhe, and then use the power of that union to fight other bronze age men that did not have magic. It's at this point that that Man's use of magic began to threaten nature, seasns began to swing, and so some sort of alliance built the Wall to limit man's access to magic, perhaps by mutual agreement of COTF, Others/true first men, and the Bronze age men that intermarried with Others/true first men, perhaps with COTF serving the be the "monitors" of which bronze age men (with the necessary genes from Others) could be trusted to interact with the Others, and also of which Others/First Men were getting too aggressive with the WW business, in which case they supplied obsidian. I'm guessing the "trusted" men would have been the Kings of Winter, Stark ancestors. This worked reasonably well for a while, but at some point northerners got too aggressive with the use of Sidhe magic, which set the seasons back into swing, and COTF/Others (and perhaps even Kings of Winter) decided to send the Others down in the form of WW to teach the Northerners a lesson- the long night- after which magic became a taboo, but enough Northerners were still able to practice it to keep the seasons swaying.

Meanwhile, in the east, folks are working blood magic. Fast forward, it gets out of control, and the faceless men (who seem to have links to COTF) unleash the doom- the corrollary to the long night. I would also posit that Targs were like Kings of Winter- people who could be somewhat trusted to use magic in moderation. But, of course, still not enough for people to learn to stop using magic for human ends at the expense of nature, and now an even greater cataclysm is looming to ultimately restore balance (which I thihnk FM, COTF, and perhaps even maesters and Varys, were all trying to avoid).

I ultimately think Jon will have to make a choice whether to unleash the cataclysim or prolong it further, and he will choose the former- perhaps with the help of Bran- at great sacrafice to those he knows and loves, thus fulfilling the AA prophecy.

Just spitballing here guys, really don't feel like working.

[nedhed]

More on Jon Snow and his seemingly conflcting role:

I think Ned's beheading offers some foreshadowing. "Ice" was forged in Valyria (evidence that ice and fire are two sides of one coin). Illyn used Ice to chop of Ned's head, literally removing the head of house Stark with its finest weapon, and the other Starks start running around like chickens with their heads cut off (sorry, couldn't help it). Ice/Sidhe-magic has traditionally been the weapon for the Starks. I think Jon will have to unleash it to restore balance, but doing so will end house stark and the stark name (I'm guessing Rickon dies, Jon keeps the name Snow), but the Stark genes will passed down by Sansa, hence the bittersweet ending to the song.

Edit to add: Also, Ice was split into widow's wail and oathkeeper. Jon will keep his NW oath and the widows of the north will wail as their sons perish, but the women-and the heritage they carry- will still be there.

[Black Crow]

Welcome to the forum and to heresy

I just want to ask: If the Others aren't "evil," then what is the central conflict in ASoIaF? I'm not opposed to the Others being one player out of many, but any beings which raise their enemies as zombies have to be somewhere on the spectrum of evil. The notion of "balance" just doesn't strike me as compelling, from a narrative standpoint.

Tyryan has answered well on this one so I'll just confine myself to two points. First the Sidhe are traditionally portrayed as cruel, but not evil. To adapt an old army saying its a question of mind over matter; they don't mind and we humans don't matter. Secondly, its a conflict between Ice and Fire. Some are aligning themselves with one or the other, but essentially humans are caught in between.

Further, hasn't the text given us rather strong reasons to believe that Jon is indeed Azor Ahai? "I ask R'hllor to show me Azor Ahai, and all I get is Snow..." (paraphrased)

Complete red herring. That passage needs to be read in its full context, with the health warning about looking too hard for what you want to see in the tea leaves. Mel is not asking R'hllor to reveal Azor Ahai, he's already been revealed to her rightly or wrongly as Stannis and to her the two are interchangeable. What she's actually asking to see where he is, but instead she is being sent warnings about Jon Snow and its perhaps moot whether these warn that he is in danger or that he is the danger

I don't expect Martin to give us a pat, obvious ending to the series, but I'm still inclined to believe that Jon is in fact some sort of hero who will make his name fighting the Others.

Oh there's no doubt that Jon's the hero but we certainly look as though we're building up to the big reveal that he's a son of Winterfell and not the champion of Fire.

Also: Are we sure Victarion is "made of" fire? Is this how he's going to be able to blow the horn and live?

Well, as laid out the evidence is quite clear that he's become Fire made flesh, whether he will blow the horn remains to be seen but I wouldn't be in the least little bit surprised if this is what Moqorro has in mind for the poor sucker.

[Black Crow]

3 most shocking and confusing twists in ASOIAF experience: ...BC changing avatar

So what's your analysis of this development? :cool4:

[The Others Take Ya]

Oh, I like this!

Direwolves seem to be quite scarse beyond the Wall. All the talk of them existing there, and not a single account from the NW rangers or the wildlings (unless I am missing something).

snip...

from Jon I AGOT:

“There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings.” Benjen Stark gave

Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

That's the only account I know of, but he never says they see them. Also because its Benjen Stark saying he hears them, I've wondered on re-reads if he's one of the few or only one that does because of Arya:

ASOS Arya XI

Somewhere far off she heard a wolf howling. It wasn’t very loud compared to the camp noise

and the music and the low ominous growl of the river running wild, but she heard it all the same.

Only maybe it wasn’t her ears that heard it.

Perhaps Benjen says "we" because his team just believes him when he says he hears them. Or there's other accounts I can't remember and a howl is simply a howl. :)