Heresy 52

[Moonfox]

So what's your analysis of this development? :cool4:

The Crow... Is you... :bowdown:

[Black Crow]

Curses... somebody figured it.

[Bluemangosteen]

Its the sigil of John Uskglass, the Raven King, heraldically; argent, a raven Volant sable – or if you want it in plain English a black crow or raven in flight on a snow white background. Change the background to “storm green” and you have the sigil of House Morrigen...

I like your new sigil Black Crow, I really like that book and think much about it when on the forum.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Would you consider Death "evil"? No, because it has no place within this made up notion of morality. Yes, it is, within that concept of morality, "not good", but it also isn't technically "evil" either--it just is. It is an aspect of life--and without Death, Life wouldn't be able to exist, for a central component of Life is that it goes through the Cycle of Life, Decay, Death, and Rebirth--but you cannot have Decay and Rebirth without having Death; as such, Death is a very important aspect. The White Walkers are, at their most simplistic, Death Incarnate--not good, not evil, they just ARE.

As to the question of who the antagonists are, I refer you to me previous post here

And we can add in that really it is just those who seek to manipulate for their own purposes--Men function as both the protagonists and the antagonists, no one character is the "good hero who triumphs over evil" for all of the characters choose to partake in actions that are heroic and to partake in some actions that could be seen as villainous; The Song is complete once Man has triumphed over itself--which of course is not going to happen. And once the characters who survive the coming onslaught come to this conclusion at the end, I for one would see that to be bittersweet: they've realized what needs to be done to end this ongoing conflict, but they've also realized that they are powerless to stop it. And this whole notion of "no true good side, no true bad side" is exactly the type of anti-normal fantasy construct that Martin is trying to have his series become.

As to Jon as AA--the only indications of that being the case are 1) the (still technically a theory) idea that Jon is Targ+Stark and that as such the Targ means that he is with Fire and therefore opposed to Ice* and 2) Mel, who is definitely not always correct in her assumptions, and for me personally I hardly ever believe anything she says from the flames, for I have nothing but lack of esteem for her

*And this thing is a big factor for Heresy's existence. In this case, it completely ignores the fact that Jon is a Stark--it also ignores the fact that this series, particularly the magical Ice and Fire parts of it, are heavily influenced by the Celtic folklore and myth, and one of the most distinct aspects of Celtic myths compared to other European ones is the importance of the maternal lineage; so in the question of Jon being Ice and Fire, him being Targ and Stark, we have to ask "which one is more important"? Looking at the Celtic influences we get that the Stark-Ice side is more important; but beyond that, we already have our answer from the texts--the significance of Jon going Targ is that it puts him into the Game of Thrones aspect of the Song, but he has already discounted the idea of joining the Game when he refused Stannis' offer for the one thing that Jon wants more than anything else: Winterfell.

I reply to you humbly, sir, as you've invested much more thought in this than I have.

If the Others are Ice and Death, then is Mel aligned with Life and Fire? The more I roll it around in my brain, the more I feel compelled to accept it. Going back to the idea of balance, one could see the Others as swinging the pendulum too far towards Death, while, say, Dondarrion's near-immortality swings the pendulum too far towards Life. The ideal is somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the two arose at roughly the same time; what imbalance are they addressing?

What sticks in my craw about this, like a giant antler, is that I can't work out a sort of chain of causation. Are dragons the cause or effect of more magic in the world? If the proverbial shit is hitting the fan in Westeros/Essos because of man mucking about with magic, why is the result more magic, i.e. dragons/Others? If the world of ASoIaF was one that naturally sought balance, shouldn't magic simply stay dead? The things men did with magic happened a long time ago. Some time between then and now, magic faded. This seems logical if you believe magic use was bad. But why is it back now? And who came first, the Dragons or the Others?

Straying towards dreaded orthodoxy (is orthodoxy heresy to heretics?).... Narratively, it makes sense that the Dragons are the counterpoint to the Others. The Dragons are also in the hands of one of the series' least complicated protagonists. Unlike Tyrion or Jaime or Cat, there's never been any conflict about whether we're supposed to root for Dany. She's one of the Good Guys. Now, I will freely admit the flimsiness of that case, but what else are the dragons there for? I can be persuaded that the Others are simply avatars of Death. What do the dragons represent? Because so far, all they've done is kill, themselves. The only thing we know about the dragons, really, is that they're anti-Others. (At least, we can infer this from the effects of dragon-glass on the WW).

Also, if the Others represent Death, why do they raise the dead as wights? It might be more accurate to say the Others represent corruption, and the dragons a cleansing flame. But I'll admit I just made that up right now.

[Black Crow]

I refer you to my own take on this one; Ice and Fire are the antagonists. The Others/Sidhe and the Fire Demons (Mel et al) are the principal protagonists so far identified - if either are being led or controlled by a higher power we've yet to meet it. In the same way the Direwolves and the Dragons are on different sides. Neither are the good guys and a lot of people are going to die before our human characters somehow impose a check on both sides.

As I've said before this isn't going to be resolved by the Royal Targaryen Air Force winning the battle between Ice and Fire on the Trident per Dany's dream. Both sides need to be defeated.

[Tyryan Lannister]

What sticks in my craw about this, like a giant antler, is that I can't work out a sort of chain of causation. Are dragons the cause or effect of more magic in the world? If the proverbial shit is hitting the fan in Westeros/Essos because of man mucking about with magic, why is the result more magic, i.e. dragons/Others? If the world of ASoIaF was one that naturally sought balance, shouldn't magic simply stay dead? The things men did with magic happened a long time ago. Some time between then and now, magic faded. This seems logical if you believe magic use was bad. But why is it back now? And who came first, the Dragons or the Others?

Summerhall :devil:

(is orthodoxy heresy to heretics?)

:eek:

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

I reply to you humbly, sir, as you've invested much more thought in this than I have.

If the Others are Ice and Death, then is Mel aligned with Life and Fire? The more I roll it around in my brain, the more I feel compelled to accept it. Going back to the idea of balance, one could see the Others as swinging the pendulum too far towards Death, while, say, Dondarrion's near-immortality swings the pendulum too far towards Life. The ideal is somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the two arose at roughly the same time; what imbalance are they addressing?

What sticks in my craw about this, like a giant antler, is that I can't work out a sort of chain of causation. Are dragons the cause or effect of more magic in the world? If the proverbial shit is hitting the fan in Westeros/Essos because of man mucking about with magic, why is the result more magic, i.e. dragons/Others? If the world of ASoIaF was one that naturally sought balance, shouldn't magic simply stay dead? The things men did with magic happened a long time ago. Some time between then and now, magic faded. This seems logical if you believe magic use was bad. But why is it back now? And who came first, the Dragons or the Others?

Straying towards dreaded orthodoxy (is orthodoxy heresy to heretics?).... Narratively, it makes sense that the Dragons are the counterpoint to the Others. The Dragons are also in the hands of one of the series' least complicated protagonists. Unlike Tyrion or Jaime or Cat, there's never been any conflict about whether we're supposed to root for Dany. She's one of the Good Guys. Now, I will freely admit the flimsiness of that case, but what else are the dragons there for? I can be persuaded that the Others are simply avatars of Death. What do the dragons represent? Because so far, all they've done is kill, themselves. The only thing we know about the dragons, really, is that they're anti-Others. (At least, we can infer this from the effects of dragon-glass on the WW).

Also, if the Others represent Death, why do they raise the dead as wights? It might be more accurate to say the Others represent corruption, and the dragons a cleansing flame. But I'll admit I just made that up right now.

I think powerful magic came into being, which led to the Others' return, closely followed by the dragons. Food for thought: when I first saw the Game of Thrones opening I was convinced that astrology played a part in the series. Is GRRM turned on to any sun/moon gods?

But ice needs a few more personalities, in my opinion. Perhaps that's where Darkstar will come in to play.

Edit: I just realized everything kind of points to Marwyn if you want the ultimate antagonist. Sacrifices to 'queer gods', is a maester(been established their order has ties to the Old Gods), taught Mirri Maz Dur what she knew...prior to events in A Game of Thrones he had spent 8 years searching for old tomes.

If you want a catalyst look no further than Marwyn, who may well have studied various prophecies and ancient secrets the world over. He could have learned the secret to Ice magic and turned Craster's children into White Walkers, then saw to returning dragons to the world...or perhaps he found the 'source' of magic and its secrets to set things in motion.

Double Edit: I guess that would make Marwyn the grand schemer, not antagonist. Ever nudging each player into the Song of Ice and Fire.

[wolfmaid7]

My take on this is we have to go way back,i don't know how far but i really think there's something in what i' about to say. The balance has been screwed up for a long time, but no body is going to complain about a long summer;plus a false spring might make a few people pissed off.But i think we've fallen into that trap that focuses on "winter is coming" people all scared.In truth they should have been concerned long before the dead came a knocking and dragons took flight.I ask when in the history of westeros have the seasons been balance?

Things happen cyclically and this happens to be the season of the Others and Walkers and Dire wolves who always existed but it seems never together.I really believe that shit is hitting the fan because somebody broke a pact or oath what have you.Something happen whereby these things were kept in check but no longer.Its the only plausible reason. Stuff need to be reset and new oaths need to be made.

I think we counted like 3 pacts that were made, we know the concessions for at lease one of them( COTF/FM) but how was it sealed i'm doubting it was a handshake. We know the isles faces pact saw the parties carve faces in the WW as witnesses that's heavy right there.What about the other pacts and what are the consequences if one party breaks it.

All these magical creatures seem to be here because the balance is off which means something went wrong.

Edit: spelling

[ELITEFORCE850]

So I know this is really off topic for this thread, but this is he place where the best feedback comes from on all "out of the box ideas" supported by textual evidence. In the house of black and white (sorry for stepping out of Westeros and the North for a brief moment). Anyways Arya finds the fair looking curly haired youth in front of the stranger with gold dragons in his pocket (4 of them I believe). I searched the Wiki for house associated with curly hair and I really thought it would turn out to be Edric Storm but the Lannisters and Tyrells are the two major families associated with curly hair which made me wonder could this be Loras Tyrell? It would explain why he had 4 dragons, was he praying for death to Mel or Stannis? Are there any other theories floating around or has it been concluded he is of little or no importance? Any insight or a reference to an existing thread discussing this would be appreciated and again sorry for pulling is completely out of left field. Or possibly, I'm not sure how old he was but Tyrek Lannister could possibly be the youth too I guess and didn't Martin say we would find out war happened to him before the end of the ADOS?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Straying towards dreaded orthodoxy (is orthodoxy heresy to heretics?).... Narratively, it makes sense that the Dragons are the counterpoint to the Others. The Dragons are also in the hands of one of the series' least complicated protagonists. Unlike Tyrion or Jaime or Cat, there's never been any conflict about whether we're supposed to root for Dany. She's one of the Good Guys. Now, I will freely admit the flimsiness of that case, but what else are the dragons there for? I can be persuaded that the Others are simply avatars of Death. What do the dragons represent? Because so far, all they've done is kill, themselves. The only thing we know about the dragons, really, is that they're anti-Others. (At least, we can infer this from the effects of dragon-glass on the WW).

I understand your point, and it does seem that way, but....Really? Are we really supose to root for Dany to come back, and win the throne? So she can bring back Targaryen rule? They won the throne thru dragon power, and half of them were crazy. Her father had people killed by roasting while there sons choked to death trying to free them. IMO reading her story line has been like pulling teeth.

I have come to the theory that Dany will never reach Westeros, and her and her story is just another big red herring.

As to the dragons, remember GRRM did not at first even have real dragon(at least not living ones) in the story. It would be hard to have them save the day, if they werent going to be in it.

[Black Crow]

I understand your point, and it does seem that way, but....Really? Are we really supose to root for Dany to come back, and win the throne? So she can bring back Targaryen rule? They won the throne thru dragon power, and half of them were crazy. Her father had people killed by roasting while there sons choked to death trying to free them. IMO reading her story line has been like pulling teeth.

I have come to the theory that Dany will never reach Westeros, and her and her story is just another big red herring.

As to the dragons, remember GRRM did not at first even have real dragon(at least not living ones) in the story. It would be hard to have them save the day, if they werent going to be in it.

Absolutely...

To take your first point first, a Targaryen restoration is a pretty unambitious outcome for what's going on, whether you want to see Dany on the throne or Jon recognised as the rightful lawful king. OK you could argue that only they, and Dany's amazing dragons can save the day against the Others and so demonstrate to all of Westeros that either or both are the chosen one(s). Excuse me if I sound underwhelmed.

As to the dragons, agreed, this started out with a mental picture of the dead direwolf in the forest, Winter and the dragons came later, probably by way of fleshing out the ideas first explored in the Ice Dragon but there's an awful lot of other stuff in the mix as well - far more than I think most readers appreciate. The dragons may be important but they're just a vehicle, they're not the key to the resolution of it all.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire. We've seen enough now to know that using Fire in the form of dragons to defeat Ice in the form of the Others isn't going to be a happy outcome. This is why I agree that Dany will never reach Westeros. I don't agree however that her story is entirely a red herring. The notion that she and her amazing dragons will save the day in a second battle on the Trident is popular, but that would do nothing for restoring the balance, (and quite frankly would be pretty lame) instead, as we discussed a couple of heresies back what is perhaps a more likely outcome is Jon heading north, deeper into Faerie to sort out the Ice, while Dany enteres the hell of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

[Black Crow]

So I know this is really off topic for this thread, but this is he place where the best feedback comes from on all "out of the box ideas" supported by textual evidence. In the house of black and white (sorry for stepping out of Westeros and the North for a brief moment). Anyways Arya finds the fair looking curly haired youth in front of the stranger with gold dragons in his pocket (4 of them I believe). I searched the Wiki for house associated with curly hair and I really thought it would turn out to be Edric Storm but the Lannisters and Tyrells are the two major families associated with curly hair which made me wonder could this be Loras Tyrell? It would explain why he had 4 dragons, was he praying for death to Mel or Stannis? Are there any other theories floating around or has it been concluded he is of little or no importance? Any insight or a reference to an existing thread discussing this would be appreciated and again sorry for pulling is completely out of left field. Or possibly, I'm not sure how old he was but Tyrek Lannister could possibly be the youth too I guess and didn't Martin say we would find out war happened to him before the end of the ADOS?

As all of Robert Baratheon's bastards look like Robert Baratheon he's obviously not Edric Storm. Loras Tyrell is still around, so I'd say that probably leaves Tyrek Lannister. At a guess I'd say it will be revealed when an assassin, not improbably Arya, turns up wearing his face.

[alienarea]

Off-topic from the current disdussion but I guess it is heresy:

A theme within ASoIaF is mirroring. I assume we agreed that Azor Ahai is an Essos legend and the Last Hero a Westeros legend. I suspect that gets mirrored, too. With GRRM's statement that dragons are as intelligent as dogs Drogon is Daenery's dog. And she lost some of her friends and her horse already - she will be the Last Hero of this iteration. Leaving Jon Snow to become Azor Ahai as we suspect anyway.

[Black Crow]

Nah; Azor Ahai, however his name may translate into Westerosi, is the champion of Fire. Jon belongs to the Ice and will bridle it rather than defeat it, as King of Winter - its actually a pretty classic theme in Sidhe/Faerie lore.

[alienarea]

Nah; Azor Ahai, however his name may translate into Westerosi, is the champion of Fire. Jon belongs to the Ice and will bridle it rather than defeat it, as King of Winter - its actually a pretty classic theme in Sidhe/Faerie lore.

I was thinking that this time Ice needs an Azor Ahai stabbing his sword in ice while Fire needs a Last Hero.

[Hrafntýr]

If the Others are Ice and Death, then is Mel aligned with Life and Fire? The more I roll it around in my brain, the more I feel compelled to accept it. Going back to the idea of balance, one could see the Others as swinging the pendulum too far towards Death, while, say, Dondarrion's near-immortality swings the pendulum too far towards Life. The ideal is somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the two arose at roughly the same time; what imbalance are they addressing?

What sticks in my craw about this, like a giant antler, is that I can't work out a sort of chain of causation. Are dragons the cause or effect of more magic in the world? If the proverbial shit is hitting the fan in Westeros/Essos because of man mucking about with magic, why is the result more magic, i.e. dragons/Others? If the world of ASoIaF was one that naturally sought balance, shouldn't magic simply stay dead? The things men did with magic happened a long time ago. Some time between then and now, magic faded. This seems logical if you believe magic use was bad. But why is it back now? And who came first, the Dragons or the Others?

Straying towards dreaded orthodoxy (is orthodoxy heresy to heretics?).... Narratively, it makes sense that the Dragons are the counterpoint to the Others. The Dragons are also in the hands of one of the series' least complicated protagonists. Unlike Tyrion or Jaime or Cat, there's never been any conflict about whether we're supposed to root for Dany. She's one of the Good Guys. Now, I will freely admit the flimsiness of that case, but what else are the dragons there for? I can be persuaded that the Others are simply avatars of Death. What do the dragons represent? Because so far, all they've done is kill, themselves. The only thing we know about the dragons, really, is that they're anti-Others. (At least, we can infer this from the effects of dragon-glass on the WW).

Also, if the Others represent Death, why do they raise the dead as wights? It might be more accurate to say the Others represent corruption, and the dragons a cleansing flame. But I'll admit I just made that up right now.

Personally, I don't see Ice as Death and Fire as Life. Like wolfmaid7, quoted below, I think that real Life is when there is a balance between fire and ice, and that death is a part of life. But humans, in their fear of death, have tried to use these forces to control life and death (though mostly for their central preoccupation, conquering and ruling one another). Incidentally, we do see more acceptance of death in the North, with all those stories of old men going out in winter to willingly die, recognizing that some must pass away in order for the next generation to live. The various unDead that we've seen the red lot create strike me as just the sort of manipulation of magic, in this case the power of fire, that has been used to upset the balance. At the same time, magic can be used to restore balance, so that even these unDead, like their far north counterparts, the wights, could be magical vehicles to set things right. But I disagree with the characterization of Dany and her dragons as unproblematically "good." We've been given lots of signals that she's walking a fine line: on the one hand, she might be a force for demolishing the human impulse to domination and control, using the magic of dragons to achieve that end. But on the other hand, she's got that "natural" Targaryen inclination to conquest that become drunk with its own power and overreach itself.

As to the question of why the consequence of the "problem" of humans mucking about with magic is more magic, I'd say that the magic has always been there, it's in the natural make-up of the world, but if this is a world that is a self-regulating, complex system, every action is going to produce an equal and opposite reaction. Thus the wights balance out the unDead, the weirnet the black candles. Every magical "weapon" has its own magical counterpart (weirwood arrows against dragons, for example, and dragonglass against WWs): the question is: to what end does one deploy such weapons? Is it for the limited human aims of power at any cost, or is it in service of a world in which all parties have their portion?

Thus, I'm generally in agreement with this...

I refer you to my own take on this one; Ice and Fire are the antagonists. The Others/Sidhe and the Fire Demons (Mel et al) are the principal protagonists so far identified - if either are being led or controlled by a higher power we've yet to meet it. In the same way the Direwolves and the Dragons are on different sides. Neither are the good guys and a lot of people are going to die before our human characters somehow impose a check on both sides.

As I've said before this isn't going to be resolved by the Royal Targaryen Air Force winning the battle between Ice and Fire on the Trident per Dany's dream. Both sides need to be defeated.

...though I wonder what the world looks like when both sides are defeated. I'm hoping that things don't go too apocalyptic. When I think of the title of the series, I definitely place the emphasis upon the "and" in the Song of Ice and Fire, but ever increasingly I place the emphasis upon the "Song." The children, of course, are "those who sing the song of the earth." I believe that the term "song" in the title of the series is pointing to the possibility that the perspective of the CotF might be the one that we are left with at the end, whether the children end up being the "good guys" or the "bad guys," or whether Bran is the only one left with the meta-level perspective on all the players we've seen.

My take on this is we have to go way back,i don't know how far but i really think there's something in what i' about to say. The balance has been screwed up for a long time, but no body is going to complain about a long summer;plus a false spring might make a few people pissed off.But i think we've fallen into that trap that focuses on "winter is coming" people all scared.In truth they should have been concerned long before the dead came a knocking and dragons took flight.I ask when in the history of westeros have the seasons been balance?

Things happen cyclically and this happens to be the season of the Others and Walkers and Dire wolves who always existed but it seems never together.I really believe that shit is hitting the fan because somebody broke a pact or oath what have you.Something happen whereby these things were kept in check but no longer.Its the only plausible reason. Stuff need to be reset and new oaths need to be made.

I think we counted like 3 pacts that were made, we know the concessions for at lease one of them( COTF/FM) but how was it sealed i'm doubting it was a handshake. We know the isles faces pact saw the parties carve faces in the WW as witnesses that's heavy right there.What about the other pacts and what are the consequences if one party breaks it.

All these magical creatures seem to be here because the balance is off which means something went wrong.

Edit: spelling

One possibility of a pact that was broken might be one between the WW/CotF and Valyria, for all that we don't have any knowledge of any such thing, as far as I know. But Tyrion remarks on how strange it was that the Valyrian dragonlords never went farther west than Dragonstone, when they had the ability to conquer it with their dragons. It's only after the Doom that we see the Targaryens, the only dragonlords remaining after the Doom, feeling free to turn West rather than sticking to their traditional lands in the East. Did the Doom represent the breaking of some earlier pact, with Aegon's Conquest the aftermath?

[Hrafntýr]

I was thinking that this time Ice needs an Azor Ahai stabbing his sword in ice while Fire needs a Last Hero.

Oh, this is an interesting angle, that works very nicely with the sort of mirroring you suggest. One thing I've been speculating about is whether both "sides" need blood to work their magic. I was wondering if there might not be a life principle that is a counterpart to blood, and what I came up with is breath. This might be at play with the "kiss" being used by Thoros, and I wonder if it might be part of what the WWs do with Craster's infants. In other words, blood is life, to be sure, but breath, too, is life. But I've no idea how a sword could be tempered with breath!

ETA: Oh, I guess one more "life force" element that we've seen is, well, semen. It's suggested by Mel's shadow baby shenanigans (though unlike the TV series, I don't think we are explicitly told in the books that sex is involved), and made explicit in the story of the Night's King (he gave his seed to her and he gave his soul as well). Sex, of course, is throughout the books the way in which "important" blood (e.g. Targ, Stark, Blackwood, etc.) is reproduced in the world, and there's the blood of defloration of the First Night, but there's also the way that love and sexual attraction is so often what sets into motion significant events in the series.

[Shaggy Rickon]

Hello everyone. It's been a while since I posted anything. But I just had an idea and was wondering if it was discussed before. Could it be possible that the dragon eggs were given to illyrio for Danny by moqorro? What got me thinking about this was an earlier post on how marwyn could be an antagonist. We have seen moqorro at Danny's wedding and now he has done something to victarion possibly to procure a horn blower. So is there a possibility that Danny's dragons come from moqorro who got them from the ruins of Valeria or asshai or where ever. What does everyone think?

Btw cool avatar black crow.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I understand your point, and it does seem that way, but....Really? Are we really supose to root for Dany to come back, and win the throne? So she can bring back Targaryen rule? They won the throne thru dragon power, and half of them were crazy. Her father had people killed by roasting while there sons choked to death trying to free them. IMO reading her story line has been like pulling teeth.

I have come to the theory that Dany will never reach Westeros, and her and her story is just another big red herring.

I think that Dany does reach Westeros... at the very end. She continues to go on through Essos/Valyria doing what she needs to do, and arrives in Westeros to see a destroyed kingdom. Knowing that "her people" have seen enough destruction, and knowing that her dragons bring only destruction, she takes the bitter path of killing her dragons herself and the sweet path of then asking the distraught Westerosi people to take her as their rightful Queen, which they, being tired of all the crazy nonsense that has happened since the deposition of the Targaryens, happily do. And the series ends with her sitting on the Iron Throne--we see her reach the Throne but we never get to see her rule.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hello everyone. It's been a while since I posted anything. But I just had an idea and was wondering if it was discussed before. Could it be possible that the dragon eggs were given to illyrio for Danny by moqorro? What got me thinking about this was an earlier post on how marwyn could be an antagonist. We have seen moqorro at Danny's wedding and now he has done something to victarion possibly to procure a horn blower. So is there a possibility that Danny's dragons come from moqorro who got them from the ruins of Valeria or asshai or where ever. What does everyone think?

Btw cool avatar black crow.

Don't remember Moq at the wedding... got a quote?