[Book Spoilers] This is Bryan Cogman's episode.

[Syrio Foral]

I'm making a judgement based on stills. Unless they are not actually from the episode*, I cannot imagine that my opinion will change.

Oh, and using gender-specific insults after I've criticised the show for the same thing is just laughable.

(* They are from the episode - other stills have been released with the same quality.)

1. Maybe because GRRM himself has actually said he did not define her by her children? Catelyn in the books exists without her children. She loves them and they play a big part of her life, but her story exists beyond them (after all, she spends all but one chapter in ACoK away from all of her children).
   
   
2. When has he used woman or wench as insults in the show? And why would being a woman offend him? In the books he has no problem imagining himself as a woman because he thinks he'd be like Cersei, and he sees no problem with that.
   
   
3. She was complex, if you're capable of looking beyond what the POV characters think of her. They've turned her into the "mad woman in the attic" trope (research it if you must). Keeping dead babies in jars is NOT sympathetic; it's really messed up.
   
   
4. She's keeping babies in jars. That is not sane.
   
   
5. Bryan Cogman's role is to keep the show faithful to the books - like seriously, that's pretty much his job description. He's also said in interviews that changes are made by D&D. I'm sure he can suggest changes, but it seems unlikely that he would, and D&D could simply dismiss them anyway. The evidence therefore suggests that this was NOT Cogman's idea.
   

With respect, if you had bothered to read my posts you would know that I WANTED them to change Selyse. But the problem is that they've changed her in what I consider to be a bad way.

Slayer of Dany Haters, admit, you hate the show, I have not seen one positive post from you.

[protar]

It's not quite the same if its a 6 year old. I agree though, the dead babies in jars is much worse. A better example of George's twisted imagination would be the whole Craster clusterfuck.

Even there we don't have to see/read any of that first hand. When it comes to the truly gruesome stuff Martin usually leaves it to the imagination or else doesn't spend much time on it. He doesn't put things in jars for all to see.

Also you have to keep in mind that what is gross on television is usually less so in books without a visual medium. So to keep things at the same level this stuff needs to be toned down not ramped up.

[King Tommen]

Are you honestly comparing breastfeeding to preserving dead babies in jars?

Breastfeeding a grown child is in the same realm as preserving stillborns, sure, in terms of shock value.

Your mileage varies I suppose. I've seen dead fetuses preserved in other movies and television series so it's not that mind blowing to me. A woman pulling out her boob while addressing her subjects and letting her full grown kid go to town on it is not something I had seen before so I guess that was a little more jarring to me.

In either case, I like those types of things because they are outlandish. It certainly instantly makes Selyse a cooler character than the stick in the ass bore she was in the books.

[PatrickStormborn]

Slayer of Dany Haters, admit, you hate the show, I have not seen one positive post from you.

I was very positive about the last episode, and last season I even defended some of the changes.

If it's going down that road I definitely don't want it. Like Jeyne, Selyse is not a character who needs to be super-interesting, or stand out. Stannis' shrewish, fanatical wife which explains how Mel got a hold on Dragonstone works perfectly well.

My thoughts exactly. Selyse was an interesting character in the books: she was desperate for Stannis's affection, but she was still proud and had an internal strength. Basically she was a character in her own right. In contrast, the show's version looks like she'll just fill a "Mrs Rochester" role (locked in a tower going crazy) to create sympathy for Stannis and explain his lust for Melisandre.

The "mad woman in the attic" trope was bad when it was used by Bronte in the 19th Century. Modern fiction really shouldn't be doing the same thing.

[protar]

Breastfeeding a grown child is in the same realm as preserving stillborns, sure, in terms of shock value.

Your mileage varies I suppose. I've seen dead fetuses preserved in other movies and television series so it's not that mind blowing to me. A woman pulling out her boob while addressing her subjects and letting her full grown kid go to town on it is not something I had seen before so I guess that was a little more jarring to me.

In either case, I like those types of things because they are outlandish. It certainly instantly makes Selyse a cooler character than the stick in the ass bore she was in the books.

Your mileage varies indeed. Lysa breastfeeding Robin is taking something perfectly natural and exaggerating it. Preserving your unborn children is not natural at all. I guess 6-year old breastfeeding can fall into the uncanny valley in that case for some, but eh I was never sick to my stomach about it. I was here, and like I said upthread it usually takes quite a bit to disgust me.

[Joyful Union]

I was very positive about the last episode, and last season I even defended some of the changes.

My thoughts exactly. Selyse was an interesting character in the books: she was desperate for Stannis's affection, but she was still proud and had an internal strength. Basically she was a character in her own right. In contrast, the show's version looks like she'll just fill a "Mrs Rochester" role (locked in a tower going crazy) to create sympathy for Stannis and explain his lust for Melisandre.

The "mad woman in the attic" trope was bad when it was used by Bronte in the 19th Century. Modern fiction really shouldn't be doing the same thing.

The really hairy woman trope is awful to begin with. In any case, you havent seen nearly enough to decide that they are going to make her entirely insane. Also, I have a feeling that her instability will be blamed on Stannis, and that Stannis is the one who will look bad.

Seylse was only interesting if you imagined things about her, otherwise she was self-involved, haughty and thoroughly boring character. If by character in her own right you mean an insignificant plot point, then I agree.

What internal strength? You mean arrogance?

[protar]

The really hairy woman trope is awful to begin with. In any case, you havent seen nearly enough to decide that they are going to make her entirely insane. Also, I have a feeling that her instability will be blamed on Stannis, and that Stannis is the one who will look bad.

Seylse was only interesting if you imagined things about her, otherwise she was self-involved, haughty and thoroughly boring character. If by character in her own right you mean an insignificant plot point, then I agree.

What internal strength? You mean arrogance?

Oh, well that makes everything much better.

[Loras]

I agree with King Tommen on this one.

The only thing that concerns me is the inevitable - "Is she the one who keeps her babies in a jar?" from my Non-Reader partner.

[victim]

I'm shocked that PatrickStormborn and protar aren't on board with this change. Truly shocked...

[protar]

I'm shocked that PatrickStormborn and protar aren't on board with this change. Truly shocked...

My opinions can be surprising at times, but if you pay attention there are patterns :P

[King Tommen]

Your mileage varies indeed. Lysa breastfeeding Robin is taking something perfectly natural and exaggerating it. Preserving your unborn children is not natural at all. I guess 6-year old breastfeeding can fall into the uncanny valley in that case for some, but eh I was never sick to my stomach about it. I was here, and like I said upthread it usually takes quite a bit to disgust me.

Sure but I feel like we need the context of the scene first before going too far off the deep end. It will be a shocking visual regardless of the context but I don't think trying to read into this as some kind of indicator of Selyse's characterization is warranted.

I could think of many ways they could go with the scene and am interested to see what the reasons behind this development are. Certainly they could be going the route of making her the "Lysa the crazy shut-away" wife but they could just as easily be making this some kind of plot point where the preservation of the babies is at the bidding of Melisandre because she's telling both Selyse and Stannis that she can eventually "save" the babies. Maybe it's Stannis who wants to preserve the babies to remind Selyse of her failure to produce an heir. We don't know where this room is. Is it in the tower with Selyse always or is it some kind of secret room that Stannis takes Selyse to?

If they are continuing with the book characterization of Selyse as an ardent follower of Melisandre, then I would think that Mel would be involved in this decision to some extent.

[Dysun]

It's funny how a minor change to a an almost totally irrelevant character can stir up such a shit storm among book thumpers

[victim]

I just feel that instead of niggling away at the changes made that bother you, it's easier to just say, "oh, I preferred that in the books," or, "she was better in the books," but to ultimately move on and just enjoy the show for what it is. If you ever get to a point where the changes bother you that much, you can always just stop watching and read the books again. It's perfectly fine for a fan to hate an adapted work, especially when they love the original so much, but to complain so rigidly about every little thing that bothers you and then to claim you still enjoy the show... well, I guess I just don't see how someone can enjoy something while protesting it at the same time.

That said, if everyone on here thought like this the discussions would be quite bland. So, there's that.

[Stannis' shadow babies]

Are people assuming Selyse will be crazy as shit just because of those stills? :eek: Couldn't a Maester keep all those fetuses to try to figure out why Selyse is unable to give birth besides the daughter she had (always forget her name)?

(anyway, IMO, book Selyse was borderline looney, you could tell that she was the religious freak, not Stannis)

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

This is a bit creepy but hopefully they don't dwell on it too long. And hopefully there's some weird reason she's keeping them other than she's just fucking crazy, but I doubt it.

Are people assuming Selyse will be crazy as shit just because of those stills? :eek: Couldn't a Maester keep all those fetuses to try to figure out why Selyse is unable to give birth besides the daughter she had (always forget her name)?

(anyway, IMO, book Selyse was borderline looney, you could tell that she was the religious freak, not Stannis)

She was loony but in a religious zealot super entitled cold bitch kind of way. Her character is terrible and boring. The best part she has in the books is when Stannis tells her "Be quiet, woman. You're not at a nightfire now."

[Khal-a-bunga]

I'm literally so done with this show. I just... Wow. That's some fucked up shit.

(Not in a good way.)

Thank the gods. But seeing as you aren't a "crazy" middle-aged woman, you have absolutely no right to have an opinion on whether keeping those still-born children is fucked up or not. Right? That's how it works, isn't it?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Thank the gods. But seeing as you aren't'a crazy middle-aged woman, you have absolutely no right to have an opinion on whether keeping those still-born children is fucked up or not. Right? That's how it works, isn't it?

Zing.

[King of the Road]

I just feel that instead of niggling away at the changes made that bother you, it's easier to just say, "oh, I preferred that in the books," or, "she was better in the books," but to ultimately move on and just enjoy the show for what it is. If you ever get to a point where the changes bother you that much, you can always just stop watching and read the books again. It's perfectly fine for a fan to hate an adapted work, especially when they love the original so much, but to complain so rigidly about every little thing that bothers you and then to claim you still enjoy the show... well, I guess I just don't see how someone can enjoy something while protesting it at the same time.

That said, if everyone on here thought like this the discussions would be quite bland. So, there's that.

:agree: Good post!

[Lady Lu]

Are people assuming Selyse will be crazy as shit just because of those stills? :eek: Couldn't a Maester keep all those fetuses to try to figure out why Selyse is unable to give birth besides the daughter she had (always forget her name)?

(anyway, IMO, book Selyse was borderline looney, you could tell that she was the religious freak, not Stannis)

Or maybe it's Melisandre's doing... keeping around some kingly DNA just in case the Gendry thing doesn't work out. ;)

[Birdsong65]

Also, Gwendoline Christie has a sweet ass.

IIRC, this ass, while sweet, likely belongs to the hooker that Bolton sends Jaime. The one who thought of Jaime when she was with her customers.

The real question is if Catelyn could have loved that motherless child, would Selise be mothering jar babies?

Ponder that.