Westerosi Intellectuals

[Ser Pounce FTW]

So we're all on the same page:

Intellectual:

a. Of or relating to the intellect.

b. Rational rather than emotional.

Intellect:

a. The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.

b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly.

Source: The Free Dictionary

Butterbumps added some things that should be included in the definition of intellectual, especially so we can distinguish between someone who is an authority on something versus being a thinker.

"Intellectual" refers to someone who enjoys or works at pursuits of the mind, broadly. "Intellect" pertains to reasoning, understanding, analysis, not just having knowledge Intellectual takes knowledge beyond acquirement to further to analyze, reason, or apply it,

[Jon's Queen Consort]

my choices would be

Rodrick

Tyrion

Sam

Willas

Oberyn

Sarella

I don't include maester because they are not Lords or some of them they aren't Lords anymore...

[Chaircat Meow]

"Intellectual" refers to someone who enjoys or works at pursuits of the mind, broadly. "Intellect" pertains to reasoning, understanding, analysis, not just having knowledge (I can check OED, but I think I'm right on this). Doran is one of the characters who A. pretty much does nothing but ruminate, and B. is specifically interested in meta-analysis, and perhaps even a bit of political philosophy-- the ruminations at the Water Gardens are what I'm referring to here. He's always analyzing thinking itself (why I said meta-analysis), such as his instructions to Arianne about Cyvasse. Intellectual takes knowledge beyond acquirement to further to analyze, reason, or apply it, which is why I think fits with Doran.

Thanks. Yea, you don't have to be 'bookish' to be intellectual. I'd forgotten all of the details of the Water Garden scene and was only thinking in terms of the structure of his plans.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Tyrion though, just strikes me as too practical and pragmatic. Would you consider someone like Steve Jobbs an intellectual, sure he's very learned, intelligent, and perceptive, but at the end of the day he's a businessman out to make money. I see Tyrion as the same way, though money is not his end goal.

Except Tyrion doesn't read only books that are somehow making it easy for him to achieve some specific non-abstract goal. We know he knows history better than Haldon Halfmaester (corrects him like a 100 times in ADWD). He borrows books from the Winterfell library simply because it has some interesting tomes he wouldn't be able to get anywhere else. He goes to see the wall out of pure interest to visit "the greatest structure of our time", not because there was money/power there for him. There is clearly more to Tyrion than using his intellect purely for practical purpose.

[thenedstark]

Considering that ASOIAF takes place in some unspecified medieval age, the term may be a bit anachronistic for Westeros. It seems the term was used after the 14th century (late/middle medieval period) in real world history. Maybe if a Westerosi renaissance happens, we may see some genuine "intellectuals"!

[King Aerys the Just]

Except Tyrion doesn't read only books that are somehow making it easy for him to achieve some specific non-abstract goal. We know he knows history better than Haldon Halfmaester (corrects him like a 100 times in ADWD). He borrows books from the Winterfell library simply because it has some interesting tomes he wouldn't be able to get anywhere else. He goes to see the wall out of pure interest to visit "the greatest structure of our time", not because there was money/power there for him. There is clearly more to Tyrion than using his intellect purely for practical purpose.

Yeah, Tyrion definitely qualifies. Overall they indeed seem to be rare outside of the Citadel, but I suppose that is to be expected considering the times.

Qyburn should count though, since he isn't a certified maester ;)

Sandor Clegane and Jaime show pretty strong philosophical streaks, but I suppose that isn't enough.

[moonjump05]

Sansa might not be a philosophical or political intellectual but there are also cultural intellectuals, which is actually a terribly underdeveloped field in Westeros. Wether she can express her expertise in fashion and songs, as well as virtue and moral ethics in order to exert it an intellectual discourse is not directly shown. However Sansa is well spoken even under extreme pressure, as we´ve seen when she pleaded for Ned at court. :dunno:

I came here to add Hoster "the Hostage" Blackwood.

I would agree, except to add that Sansa shows potential to be an intellectual but hasn't- for story reasons- expanded upon that. Music, dancing, or poetry discourse don't make for exciting drama I'm afraid.

[Lord Reaver]

I guess I underestimate Rodrik. Even if he's the reader in the Iron Islands, I don't see an ironborn being all that intellectual.

Pssst. Your racism is showing.

Anyway. Rodrik, Tyrion and Sam definately qualifies to the stereotypical "intellectual" who is interested in books and the like. Less stereotypical are the likes of Oberyn, Doran and Whoresbane, who are more interested it seems in "applied" knowledge. Qyburn would (unfortunately) fall into this one too, exemplifying the fact that intellectualism and being a good person are not contradictory.

[juanml82]

Arya does mention in the early chapters of AGOT how Sansa plays music and learnt quite a lot of what the Septa taught them. She's eleven by then, though.

I think Baelish counts. He has a knowledge of economics (and hence maths) and maybe even managment that probably surpasses that of the traditional Westerosi nobles.

[SilentSense]

but superior knowledge of [insert field] doesn't make one an intellectual. even enjoying cognitively demanding pursuits, which LF does, isn't sufficient.

[Blood of the Flagon]

judging by his reaction to Joffery destroying the rare book Tyrion gave him I think we can add Garlan Tyrell

[Dagon Greyjoy]

To add to the list someone not yet mentioned (and less significant to the story): Lord Blackwood's son---whose name I am now forgetting---given to Jaime as a hostage for Blackwood allegiance in AFFC. He is the one who, I believe, first openly questions the established timelines of Westerosi history and similar assumptions (true, he is simply quoting from the writings of maesters, but that itself speaks to the type of curiosity this thread seems to be discussing).

That'd be Hos Blackwood: Clever lad.

As for those who say Rodrik the Reader can't be all that intellectual because he's Ironborn: Y'all do realize Rodrik Harlaw pretty much dedicated his life to study history, and was well-read enough to search for (and fucking find) fragments of books believed long-lost? That he's basically the official historian of the Iron Islands? That he maintains regular correspondence with the archmaesters of the Citadel to request copies from texts in the Oldtown library?

If he ain't an intellectual, Tyrion and Oberyn and Sam Tarly and Hos Blackwood ain't intellectuals neither.

[vivatforx]

Ok, but we do know Stannis is said to be able to recall troop strengths for all the southern houses. That is unusual as it is mentioned: why did he go to the trouble?

He also knows all about Daeron's invasion of Dorne and argues for the role played by the navy in the conquest. One suspects he learned about that as part of his duties as master of ships.

As was said before, let's not confuse intelligence with being an intellectual. Stannis seems to be a very intelligent man, but yeah, I don't see him doing a lot of reading for pleasure.

What about Doran? I'm not sure if he's "bookish" or ivory tower, but he definitely fits the term "intellectual" given the way he operates and his way of thinking.

I was going to say this, too. I was surprised Doran was not in the top five.

Great topic though, Hear me Meow.

Edit: Yay, I'm a freerider now! Though I was never truly a commoner.

[Ser Leftwich]

Willas Tyrell

ETA: There is something to be said for Podrick Payne. He makes a number of level headed decisions while stressed. He has potential.

[Burning down the House]

when i think westerosi intellectual I think Gregor Clegane

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Arya has at least the potential to be an intellectual. In her first AGOT chapter she thinks that Sansa is good at everything except math. It implied, at least in my opinion that Arya is good at math. She is always eager to learn at FM training (language, poisons, reading people to determine if they're lying). She makes fun of the insurance industry. I could see her ending up as some sort of populist political intellectual since she is so bothered by injustice. However, she doesn't have enough patience to be an academic type.

[thecryptile]

(...) in westeros, qyburn would be the only intellectual.

While definitely not a lord, Qyburn is an intellectual IMO.

[vivatforx]

I'd also like to point out the irony of using a dictionary definition of "intellectual" to define the terms of a debate over who may be an intellectual, when giving the dictionary definition of something is usually considered rather non-intellectual. It's weak and offers no analysis.

Just sayin'.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

The Hightowers are famous for being the most distinctive intellectuals among the nobles.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Thats easy first and foremost Varys and LF.

Then maester Luwin, Aemon...

Tyrion, Tywin and Ned.