Dragonsteel = Dawn?

[Downright Daario]

Where the hell is Dawn anyway? I assume Edric has it? Then again, he never seemed to have it when he was rollin' with the Brotherhood.

[King of Winters]

Where the hell is Dawn anyway? I assume Edric has it? Then again, he never seemed to have it when he was rollin' with the Brotherhood.

Dawn is still in Starfall.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

So where did the rest of the dragonsteel swords go? Dawn is unique as far as we know, otherwise it wouldn't be so famous. It's possible I guess but I don't quite buy it.

I think that is the problem between Dragonsteel and Valyrian Steel swords. There are many missing or hidden Valyrian swords, not to mention who has these wonderful Dragonsteel swords, if they are seperate indeed.

There has to be at some point in the next 2 books, a world wide message sent out that the Others are invading/The End is Nigh and help is needed. "Calling all persons in possession of Dragonsteel and/or Valyrian Steel swords and assorted other weapons, please help us fight the Others". I can see certain people rocking up to fight ,such as a Tarly "First in Battle" either Sam in possession or his dad or bro Dickon. Arya with Dark Sister, Someone with Dawn of course, Jaime and Brienne if they survive and so on and so on.

On a side note. I think the Starks come from the Daynes or Vice Versa.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dawn is described very, very similar to the blades of the Others. That crystalline sharpness never mentioned elsewhere implies a connection.

I have a question:

Which came first, dragons or dragonglass?

Probably dragons. While it is true that the Valyrians (re-)discovered dragons in Valyria and learned to tame them 5,000 years ago. the Westerosi know dragonslayers out of the Age of Heroes and still have (Westerosi) dragon skeletons thousands of years old at the least.

They got exterminated long before the Conquest though.

[yolkboy]

Probably dragons. While it is true that the Valyrians (re-)discovered dragons in Valyria and learned to tame them 5,000 years ago. the Westerosi know dragonslayers out of the Age of Heroes and still have (Westerosi) dragon skeletons thousands of years old at the least.

They got exterminated long before the Conquest though.

How can dragons have come before dragonglass? Dragonglass is naturally occurring volcanic matter.

It's like saying what came first, apes or mud.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How can dragons have come before dragonglass? Dragonglass is naturally occurring volcanic matter.

It's like saying what came first, apes or mud.

Known to mankind, not existing.

[nirolo]

Dawn is described very, very similar to the blades of the Others. That crystalline sharpness never mentioned elsewhere implies a connection.

This is an interesting observation. Can you pull up the two quotes?

Probably dragons. While it is true that the Valyrians (re-)discovered dragons in Valyria and learned to tame them 5,000 years ago. the Westerosi know dragonslayers out of the Age of Heroes and still have (Westerosi) dragon skeletons thousands of years old at the least.

They got exterminated long before the Conquest though.

This is my suspicion, since the date of discovery does not imply the first day of existence.

[kiasyd]

If this is true, Jon will have a nasty surprise when he face an Other... Assuming he surpasses his current condition, of course.

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

I think that the term dragonglass has been given to obsidian since it was used by Valyrians for their glass candles (see the Citadel).

From the wiki :

The Valyrians called obsidian frozen fire and made use of obsidian to make their glass candles. ^[3] Obsidian blades are sharper than steel but far more brittle.

There are large deposits of dragonglass on Dragonstone and it is an important export from Asshai.

It's probably some kind of magical steel made in Asshai or in The Shadow that the Valyrians stole and made their famous blade with it.

That seems to imply that the term dragonsteel have been given to something that wasn't related to dragons at first by Valyrians or by maesters. Maybe it was first use to hunt and kill dragons. In fact, I think that the Others are dragons hunters, it's not their only goal, but they are.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that the term dragonglass has been given to obsidian since it was used by Valyrians for their glass candles (see the Citadel).

From the wiki :

The Valyrians called obsidian frozen fire and made use of obsidian to make their glass candles. ^[3] Obsidian blades are sharper than steel but far more brittle.

There are large deposits of dragonglass on Dragonstone and it is an important export from Asshai.

It's probably some kind of magical steel made in Asshai or in The Shadow that the Valyrians stole and made their famous blade with it.

That seems to imply that the term dragonsteel have been given to something that wasn't related to dragons at first by Valyrians or by maesters. Maybe it was first use to hunt and kill dragons. In fact, I think that the Others are dragons hunters, it's not their only goal, but they are.

Interesting. Note that that doesn't necessarily mean that obsidian was discovered after dragons, only that the name dragonglass dates to Valyria.

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

Interesting. Note that that doesn't necessarily mean that obsidian was discovered after dragons, only that the name dragonglass dates to Valyria.

That's exactly what I think, dragonglass and dragonsteel are probably things valyrians named (because their society was based around dragons) or maester\scholar\etc. named because of things valyrians used, but that doesn't mean thoses things were invented by valyrians.

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

Dawn is described very, very similar to the blades of the Others. That crystalline sharpness never mentioned elsewhere implies a connection.

Probably dragons. While it is true that the Valyrians (re-)discovered dragons in Valyria and learned to tame them 5,000 years ago. the Westerosi know dragonslayers out of the Age of Heroes and still have (Westerosi) dragon skeletons thousands of years old at the least.

They got exterminated long before the Conquest though.

Very interesting, I always thought that Others and dragons are enemies by nature (ice and fire).

Also I don't think all Others have the same goal, or they all work together(possibly Coldhands ??), it's even possible that there is some internal wars, which probably mean that an Other can kill another one. So maybe their blades are actually weapons that could be used against them. Maybe, dragonsteel is actually similar to the blades of the Others and got it's name because some ancient peoples were hunting dragons with them. I could see Dawn being one of theses.

[redriver]

This came up in a discission with Lady M, Dr. Pepper and Florina Stark. We were talking about what dragonsteel might be and were in agreement that it probably wasn't Valyrian steel, if for no other reason than because Jon and Sam thought it might be (but also because it requires playing a little fast and loose with the chronology).

Lady M made a comment that Dawn was likelier to be dragonsteel than Valyrian steel was, and we got to thinking. Dragonglass gets it name, it's implied, because of where and how it's made — it's intensely heated rock that eventually cools and forms the obsidian. Not because a dragon actually "made" it. So why couldn't the same thing be true for dragonsteel, i.e. why assume that it must be made by dragons or be related to literal dragons?

We're told that Dawn was forged from a fallen star. We've already seen celestial things like the red comet use to connotate dragons in at least some context. If heated rock from a volcano can make "dragonglass," can heated metal from a falling star make "dragonsteel"? If Dawn and obsidian are made in the same way, they might behave similarly (i.e. be able to kill Others), but they'd still be different things, technically, and would need different names. Dawn, being metal, would get the "steel" suffix, while obsidian, being more brittle, would get the "glass." The "dragon" refers to the heat and fire that helped make the weapons, not the the involvement of actual, literal dragons.

Many people think that Dawn is Lightbringer. I still don't — I maintain that Lightbringer, whatever it is, is metaphorical — but this would allow Dawn to have a role in the past/present/future of fighting the Others without necessarily being the Lightbringer.

ETA: And Butterbumps came to this conclusion before any of us, so it's probably correct. :P

I think the original Horn of Winter could have been a comet,and that the bulk of it was summoned down to the Arm of Dorne.But part of it fell at Starfall and provided the material for Dawn.

The Red Comet is credited with "wakening" dragons and magic,the Horn of Winter "woke" giants from the earth.The Sword of the Morning is also a celestial object,a constellation,though now the name given to he who is worthy to wield Dawn.

Which came first?

We've seen the amount of epithets the Red Comet went by.The Horn of Winter seems appropriate for an icy comet,especially if it brought the Long Night with it.

[Ajbc]

Maybe the coming of a comet signifies the return of the others? So dawn was forged 9000 years ago from a different comet, meaning a similar sword could be formed if the red comet crashed anywhere

[Sevumar]

Sevumar, do you think it must be a Dayne to truly be able to wield the power of Dawn? Could this be some sort of family trait, like we associate Starks+ past and present wargs, Reeds + past/present greenseers, and Targs + past (and debatable present) dragonlords/binders....

I don't think we know enough to say that you necessarily have to be a Dayne to access any hidden power Dawn might possess. Of the office of Sword of the Morning, Martin has said that it is usually for members of House Dayne. Whether this is a rigid restriction or a matter of custom is unknown. It's possible that we may see a non-Dayne wielder of Dawn in the scope of the story.

Because Darkstar carries himself as if he's something special, but I don't believe that, he's not, he's just a guy.

Maybe there have been some Daynes in the past with special skills, or even chosen by fate (or what have you) to have some of this magical ability, but not necessarily all Daynes are.

If Darkstar gets his hands on Dawn, it will be because he believes he's entitled to it, not because he has truly proven himself worthy. That's why his possession of the weapon will be theft.

I don't think the Daynes have any inherited magic, just a legacy that seems to go far back into Westerosi history, to the days of the First Men.

[bbstark]

I don't think we know enough to say that you necessarily have to be a Dayne to access any hidden power Dawn might possess. Of the office of Sword of the Morning, Martin has said that it is usually for members of House Dayne. Whether this is a rigid restriction or a matter of custom is unknown. It's possible that we may see a non-Dayne wielder of Dawn in the scope of the story.

If Darkstar gets his hands on Dawn, it will be because he believes he's entitled to it, not because he has truly proven himself worthy. That's why his possession of the weapon will be theft.

I don't think the Daynes have any inherited magic, just a legacy that seems to go far back into Westerosi history, to the days of the First Men.

well If Martin said it, then probably that's all there is to it :dunno: .

Thanks anyways.

I think we'll see more of Dawn, and there might be more revelations if there is any magic involved in becoming the wielder, Morningstar or something liek that.

[Valyrian Spoon]

The qualities that make dragonbone good for bows would make it terrible for blades, so it's effectively out as a candidate for "dragonsteel."

Not necessarily, for example certain bones may have the strength and flexibility to be ideal for bows and that's fine. Other bones may have other properties that could make them useful for other purposes.

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

Yeah the possibility of being from dragons bones is there aswell.

[yolkboy]

If Dawn and obsidian are made in the same way, they might behave similarly (i.e. be able to kill Others), but they'd still be different things, technically, and would need different names. Dawn, being metal, would get the "steel" suffix, while obsidian, being more brittle, would get the "glass." The "dragon" refers to the heat and fire that helped make the weapons, not the the involvement of actual, literal dragons.

I have to say i'm completely and utterly sold on this, not only in the dragonsteel example, but the actual logic behind it. I think we're beginning to understand the angle GRRM takes on many of his puzzles.

Dragonsteel = meteorite metal (described as dragon because it's undergone heat)

Salt & smoke = snow and mist ('seen' by someone in Assai who's never seen snow) (this is from tze)

Staillion that Mounts the World = Dragon that flies ('seen' by an anchient Dothraki crone who's never seen a dragon before and wants to describe it as riding to fit the 'Khals must ride' culture)

They all have a similar kind of logic behind them, i'm very interested in this.

There must be others that can be similarly solved. (Assuming one, two, or three of these is correct.)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hmm interesting