Dragonsteel = Dawn?

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Not sure if this is the best thread to post this in, but why not...


In Old Nan's tale of the Long Night 8000 years ago, the LH's original sword froze and broke when he tried to use it. However, we later get an account from Sam that the LH slew "Others with a blade of dragonsteel", the Others "could not stand against it."

And in regards to AAR, Melisandre states, "and that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." This is supposedly from texts from Asshai that are over 5000 years old.

But anyhow, how did the LH get this sword? Well, he was seeking "the children [of the forest], in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost." So did the LH find the CotF who gave him this magic sword of dragonsteel?

Now, the sword Dawn is said to have been "forged from the heart of a fallen star." Now the First Men did not have weapons of steel. Even if they had this super metal from a fallen star, it is unlikely they could forge a sword from it. The CotF with their magic are more likely. We also get from the story of the Smiling Knight how his sword "had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one," which seems a bit similar to how the Others could not stand against the blade of dragonglass, especially when we consider it is usually the Others freezing people's sword so that they break.

Now look at the tale of AA. Sallador tells that AA was needed a hero's sword and eventually forged Lightbringer through his wife's heart. So here, AA forged the sword (after 180 days!) and then went to fight the darkness (very different than the LH). Now to me, this tale of the forging of Lightbringer is just a tale. It never happened. It is used to be symbolic, it shows how humans sometimes must make sacrifices, and it gives credit to man as opposed to legendary CotF from another continent.

We can then say that the tale of AA also must be at least 5000 years old. Now this seems to line up with after the Andal Invasion and the rise of Valyria. So the legend of the LH, passed along mostly in oral tradition in the old tongue, is eventually translated to the common tongue and goes through some minor changes, and written accounts become a little more widespread. However, when the legend travels east to Valyria and Asshai, it is translated again but loses a lot of the authenticity. They discredit any tales of these CotF, their hero becomes Essosi, and "the heart of a fallen star" becomes "the heart of an angel," and that becomes "the heart of AA's wife." But some things stay the same, a lone hero with a magic sword that the Others/darkness cannot stand against/flee before him.

Anyway, anyone have any ideas relating to all this?

[Frey family reunion]

One thing that we have to keep in mind is that Sam was reading from an Andal translation of First Men runes from (allegedly) eight thousand years ago. If the time line is correct there is a decent chance that the First Men had no concept of the term "steel", which wouldn't have been introduced into Westeros by the Andals until approximately two thousand years later. So there is a decent chance that the Andals mistranslated the rune's and the actual rune could mean something completely different.

ETA: and by completely different I wonder if the rune expressed an idea that was completely foreign to the Andals which could easily lead to a mistranslation, such as a rune for "warging" a dragon as opposed to wielding a dragon (as you would a sword).

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

One thing that we have to keep in mind is that Sam was reading from an Andal translation of First Men runes from (allegedly) eight thousand years ago. If the time line is correct there is a decent chance that the First Men had no concept of the term "steel", which wouldn't have been introduced into Westeros by the Andals until approximately two thousand years later. So there is a decent chance that the Andals mistranslated the rune's and the actual rune could mean something completely different.

ETA: and by completely different I wonder if the rune expressed an idea that was completely foreign to the Andals which could easily lead to a mistranslation, such as a rune for "warging" a dragon as opposed to wielding a dragon (as you would a sword).

I doubt the Andals translation is from runes. It is more likely translated verbally. After they started to learn eachother's languages and a First Man tried telling the story of the Last Hero, he probably could not think of the any word in the common tongue to translate what Dawn was, so he said "fire" and pointed to the sky (fallen star), but that got translated to dragon, and then he pointed to an Andal's (steel) sword, saying "more like this, not like our crappy bronze".

edit: This might explain Osha's reasoning for a red comet being a sign for dragons. After a few thousand years with contact between Andals and North and Wildlings, the Wildlings picking up the common tongue might eventually get an association with astrological irregularities and dragons.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

HUGE CRACKPOT:

• We have heard that the red comet was associated with the dragons.
  
• We know that there were ancient Westerosi dragons.
  
• Dawn was forged from the star of a falling star.
  

Now, connecting the dots. How about Dawn being forged by the heart of a falling ancient Westerosi dragon? The falling star aka dragon fell and Daynes made a sword from the dragon's heart. That same sword was the sword of the original AA, which was forged from Nissa Nissa's heart.

[King of Winters]

HUGE CRACKPOT:

• We have heard that the red comet was associated with the dragons.
• We know that there were ancient Westerosi dragons.
• Dawn was forged from the star of a falling star.

Now, connecting the dots. How about Dawn being forged by the heart of a falling ancient Westerosi dragon? The falling star aka dragon fell and Daynes made a sword from the dragon's heart. That same sword was the sword of the original AA, which was forged from Nissa Nissa's heart.

I think it was Free Northman who brought up the point that to the First Men the comet that Dawn was forged from May have looked like a dragon to them and they called it Dragonsteel because the comet looked like a dragon in the sky.

I think this is more likely.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think it was Free Northman who brought up the point that to the First Men the comet that Dawn was forged from May have looked like a dragon to them and they called it Dragonsteel because the comet looked like a dragon in the sky.

I think this is more likely.

Of course is more likely. I just had this idea today and I wanted to share it, I recognize the improbability of this that's why I said HUGE CRACKPOT.

edit spelling

[Dr. Evil]

HUGE CRACKPOT:

• We have heard that the red comet was associated with the dragons.

We know that there were ancient Westerosi dragons.

Dawn was forged from the star of a falling star.

Now, connecting the dots. How about Dawn being forged by the heart of a falling ancient Westerosi dragon? The falling star aka dragon fell and Daynes made a sword from the dragon's heart. That same sword was the sword of the original AA, which was forged from Nissa Nissa's heart.

:bs:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

:bs:

I think that the: HUGE CRACKPOT part speak for itself.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Trying to show the contact linguistics of all this:


So we have Dawn forged from the heart of a fallen star, which is kept as such by the Daynes keeping their history in the old tongue for a long while and only translated to the common tongue after enough of the languages are understood by eachother, thus keeping the legend of Dawn accurate.

However, in some First Men tellings of the Last Hero to the Andals, Dawn gets too loosely translated to the common tongue by maesters/historians, which are written in books at the Wall, to dragonsteel because Dawn was forged from a fallen star, fire in the sky, which becomes a dragon, and is superior to First Men bronze swords, more like the strong Andal swords, and thus the steel.

Thus, there now is this connection between fallen stars, fire in the sky (red comet), and dragons in the North, near the Wall. So take an instance now when the red comet is in the sky. Some Northerners who are familiar with the dragonsteel telling are trading with Wildlings who are more familiar with the original Dawn forged from a fallen star. They exchange some thoughts about the red comet, and from there we get Osha's association. EDIT: Getting show and books confused. It was Old Nan that associated it with dragons (and Melisandre through her interpretation of tPtwP/AAR).

But now how does this common tongue dragonsteel become Lightbringer forged through Azor Ahai's wife's heart? It doesn't.

The key is that the Daynes kept the history accurate. Thus, in the South the story is more accurate. And it is the south is where trading would happen with the East. So Dawn, forged in the heart of a fallen star, becomes a magical sword forged through the heart of an angel, and that becomes Lightbringer, forged through Nissa Nissa's heart.
(In this theory, AA, NN, and Lightbringer are simply religious symbolism; however, that does not mean that cannot be symbolic in the actual story too.)

Now over the next 5000 years, the legend of Dawn, which is so far in the South, gets disassociated with the Battle for Dawn. Now I'm not sure when Dawn gets disassociated with the Children of the Forest, possibly only because the sword is with the Daynes in Dorne, which is not associated with the Children, or possibly it gets lost twice, first when moving East because the Children are foreign to the East (and is not good for their religion) and also with the Daynes being in Dorne.

So now "so what?" crackpot time. The seat of House Dayne is close to what major city? That is right, Oldtown. And what POV character is in Oldtown who is associated with the Battle for Dawn 2.0? That is right, Samwell. He is soon to discover in the Citadel the truth behind all of this. He'll travel to Starfall, and we'll get to see Edric Dayne again! (Sam has met everyone else, why not Edric too.) Samwell and Edric will then go deliver the sword to the North early in A Dream for Spring, and we men will be victorious against the Others!

(Before coming up with this I always thought men would lose the Battle for Dawn 2.0, but we'll like last person to sit the Iron Throne ("who will be unexpected, but fans will be pleased," to paraphrase GRRM), thus the "bittersweet" ending. But now I'm not sure, victory seems plausible.)

I'm not sure where the Prince that was Promised fits into this all to be honest, likely tPtwP is Jon. Just look at the wording, Jon is in a way a prince who was promised the Iron Throne, but he unknowingly chose the Night's Watch (and humanity) instead.

I know all of this seems like a stretch, but, well, I think it is still the best explanation there is.

[Ser Knute]

In the article here: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/science/kring/epo_web/meteorites/composition.html the descriptions of how some meteorites are darker in color based on their composition and that some are lighter, even pale, some even Orange or Yellow may shed some light on the differences between the types of swords we've been introduced to in the series.

Dawn is made from a fallen star, which we know, but what we don't know is, was there any sort of 'enchantment' applied to it?

Dragonglass to me is just the Planetos name for Volcanic Glass. They're formed from volcanoes which in the story has a relevance to Dragons and their breath could likely be associated with the extreme heat associated with volcanoes.

Valyrian Steel to me is likely not just the material used to forge a sword but the entirety of the process, which in my view includes a sort of enchantment of magic associated with it. This is illustrated by the smith who reforged Ice and his difficulty in doing so, likely because it has been imbued with magic he's clueless to or about. It could however be that some Valyrian Steel (process) swords are also made from terrestrial material.

So, in essence, there can be swords out there that are made from terrestrial material along with magic which give them their unique properties, appearance and 'abilities'.

Until we actually see an Other slain by freshly mined obsidian, I'm of the opinion that it's likely the CoTF imbued them with magic as I believe someone else suggested earlier in the thread.

Valyrian Steel's effectiveness against the Others to me is still sketchy. While on one hand it would make sense that extreme heat would be in opposition to extreme cold (as associated with the Others), I think we have to go further than the material (i.e. metal) used. Likewise, we as yet have no clue what material the Others' daggers or swords are fashioned from.

That leaves Dawn. To me, something doesn't quite make sense about it. Even if it's a terrestrial material foreign to Planetos for the most part, what about it's composition causes it to kill Others? I don't think it's necessarily the composition but in the way it was forged, but even that still leaves me with some doubts. Dawn is still way too much of a mystery to have a conclusive notion on what makes it superior, if we're to presume it has some relevance or is associated with Lightbringer.

There certainly could be an argument to be made about the temperament of swords made from material common to Planetos versus that of a terrestrial nature, but I think there's more to it as far as GRRM is concerned for the story.

As an aside, does anyone else think it strange that the House associated with Dawn and charged with it's protection and whom seem to have exclusivity with respect to whom it's bestowed upon is named Day(ne)? I just think that's too coincidental to not have meaning behind it.