Dragonsteel = Dawn?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This came up in a discission with Lady M, Dr. Pepper and Florina Stark. We were talking about what dragonsteel might be and were in agreement that it probably wasn't Valyrian steel, if for no other reason than because Jon and Sam thought it might be (but also because it requires playing a little fast and loose with the chronology).

Lady M made a comment that Dawn was likelier to be dragonsteel than Valyrian steel was, and we got to thinking. Dragonglass gets it name, it's implied, because of where and how it's made — it's intensely heated rock that eventually cools and forms the obsidian. Not because a dragon actually "made" it. So why couldn't the same thing be true for dragonsteel, i.e. why assume that it must be made by dragons or be related to literal dragons?

We're told that Dawn was forged from a fallen star. We've already seen celestial things like the red comet use to connotate dragons in at least some context. If heated rock from a volcano can make "dragonglass," can heated metal from a falling star make "dragonsteel"? If Dawn and obsidian are made in the same way, they might behave similarly (i.e. be able to kill Others), but they'd still be different things, technically, and would need different names. Dawn, being metal, would get the "steel" suffix, while obsidian, being more brittle, would get the "glass." The "dragon" refers to the heat and fire that helped make the weapons, not the the involvement of actual, literal dragons.

Many people think that Dawn is Lightbringer. I still don't — I maintain that Lightbringer, whatever it is, is metaphorical — but this would allow Dawn to have a role in the past/present/future of fighting the Others without necessarily being the Lightbringer.

ETA: And Butterbumps came to this conclusion before any of us, so it's probably correct. :P

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

Then the new Sword of the Morning will have a big role in the final battle?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then the new Sword of the Morning will have a big role in the final battle?

Whoever that may be ... Also adds an interesting angle to Dorkstar Darkstar trying to get his hands on it.

[Dr. Pepper]

Many people think that Dawn is Lightbringer. I still don't — I maintain that Lightbringer, whatever it is, is metaphorical — but this would allow Dawn to have a role in the past/present/future of fighting the Others without necessarily being the Lightbringer.

I sort of (jokingly) think it would be interesting if Lightbringer weren't a real sword but the Battle for the Dawn was over a real sword (Dawn). har!

[yolkboy]

Many people think that Dawn is Lightbringer. I still don't — I maintain that Lightbringer, whatever it is, is metaphorical — but this would allow Dawn to have a role in the past/present/future of fighting the Others without necessarily being the Lightbringer.

If 'the last hero' and 'Azor Ahai' are separate entities this could especially be true, given that the dragonsteel sword is said to belong to TLH and not AA. Dawn could be the sword of TLH (if TLH is reborn/reincarnated/whatever)

[lady m]

Whoever that may be ... Also adds an interesting angle to Dorkstar Darkstar trying to get his hands on it.

Or, maybe, Ned Dayne.

[kephv]

Some other good suggestions about this can be found here. It certainly looks like Dawn is going to be important... somehow. As for Dawn being dragonsteel, the explanation makes sense; however, Dawn seems to be unique among swords—I don't have the quote from GRRM but I believe Dawn's origins are supposed to be as obscure as the Dayne's. If that's not the case, it raises the question of what happened to the rest of the dragonsteel swords.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

I dont think Ned will grow up in time to be the next SotM. Darkstar is a total douchebag.

If Dawn is the only surviving Dragonsteel sword left in the world, then the good guys are gonna have some issues.

[bbstark]

If 'the last hero' and 'Azor Ahai' are separate entities this could especially be true, given that the dragonsteel sword is said to belong to TLH and not AA. Dawn could be the sword of TLH (if TLH is reborn/reincarnated/whatever)

so one gets dragonsteel (last hero) and the other dragonglass (AA) ?

Well we already know one character who has some dragonglass... Sam is AA! :D

Anyways, this is really interesting, and I especially like the sane, nonmagical explanation to how dragonglass and dragonsteel were made.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The idea that Dawn is actually Lightbringer (the first, if you believe there's going to be a second one) is nice, since it's apparently unique. But I think Dragonsteel is juts Valyrian Steel.

[yolkboy]

so one gets dragonsteel (last hero) and the other dragonglass (AA) ?

one gets dragonsteel (last hero) and the other dragonglass Lightbringer whatever it is(AA) :)

Like i said, this scenario counts on TLH and AA being different people, which i wouldn't count on.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

Some other good suggestions about this can be found here. It certainly looks like Dawn is going to be important... somehow. As for Dawn being dragonsteel, the explanation makes sense; however, Dawn seems to be unique among swords—I don't have the quote from GRRM but I believe Dawn's origins are supposed to be as obscure as the Dayne's. If that's not the case, it raises the question of what happened to the rest of the dragonsteel swords.

Good link!

Going crackpot here, sorry. But what if the original Ice sword is not Dawn but a twin (sword). Just waiting in Winterfells Crypts for the right man for the job? Then the good guys have two Dragonsteel swords.

[diremitar]

How you get to conclusion that Dawn and dragonglass are made in the same way? Every metal sword is made by heat. If Dawn is made from meteorite metal it has nothing with dragonglass/obsidian. Obsidian is cooled lava and fallen stars/meteorites burns in atmosphere but not so hot that they are in lava form. I don't see connection between Dawn and obsidian. And they even seem to be made by opposite process ( dragonglass from COOLED lava and Dawn from BURNING star).

I think everything that is deeply involved in fire kills Others

Valyrian steel sure is made by some power fire "magic" or whatever

Maybe Valyrian steel is forged by dragon breathe ( it may be reason for westerosi not be able to forge Valyrian steel)

[MasterJack]

Dont forget GRRM intented a 5year gap, so a 17-18yo Ned Dayne wielding Dawn against the Other was very possible. Since he discarded the idea, it might explain Darkstar's introduction since Edric will never be old enough before the end of the serie.

[lady m]

Some other good suggestions about this can be found here. It certainly looks like Dawn is going to be important... somehow. As for Dawn being dragonsteel, the explanation makes sense; however, Dawn seems to be unique among swords—I don't have the quote from GRRM but I believe Dawn's origins are supposed to be as obscure as the Dayne's. If that's not the case, it raises the question of what happened to the rest of the dragonsteel swords.

I pondered to AM earlier that perhaps the original Ice was made of this substance as well. The Valyrian steel version of ice is a replacement of a much older sword belonging to House Stark.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Dont forget GRRM intented a 5year gap, so a 17-18yo Ned Dayne wielding Dawn against the Other was very possible. Since he discarded the idea, it might explain Darkstar's introduction since Edric will never be old enough before the end of the serie.

LOL

If Darkstar's going to play a major role people will be so pissed off...

[Ser Creighton]

You know I am not so sure Obsidian and Dragonglass are the exact same thing. Made from the same substance? Yes, but why would you need to get them from the children of the forest if it's just obsidian? If items tempered by heat is all you need, any metal would do, or igneous rock. Why not granite, it forms in the magma layer?

Which reminds me the children would have to get obsidian from a volcanic site, I am sure you can think of a place. We saw wildlings with some obsidian weapons as well. You know it's not used alot in westeros, but it does not really have a lot of use for people out of the Bronze Age, but it's not uncommon, people seem to know what it is on site. Also the way sams knife reacted to the Other, that's not how rocks work, they don't start to get hot when you touch them to something cold.

As for Dragon steel, why would everyone associate it with dragons, all the stars fell from the same place? They happen to have a large number of falling stars with magic metal in them back then? The metal just happened to fall from the sky just when they needed it?

I think maybe the children put spells on some pieces of obsidian which is why they only gave 100 pieces a year. Finding it is easy, enchanting it is a lot harder. Just a guess though.

With dragon steel I am not so sure how Martin would write a bunch of astaroids or one big astaroid managed to fall from the sky with a large quantity of magic metal on it just in time to defeat the Others. Talk about a plot device. I always figure Dragon Steel is just a form of spell forged steel, with maybe the same enchantment on it the children may have used on obsidian to make it dragonglass.

I still think lightbringer is a sword, mostly because Martin said it was a sword wilded by the Prince/Azor. But it may be a step beyond dragon steel.

The Others are week to dragonglass, probably fire since they seem to be ice based and no friend of heat, they fled before Dragonsteel, but one Other thing they are known to stay away from, and probably most important of all. They fear the light, they somehow seemed to have blocked out the son for 100 years or so at one point. Although really, that has got to be folk lore, 100 years withoout son, pretty much everyone dies, and nothing can grow. Unless the darkness only extended to about where the wall is now.

Honestly if it's just regular obsidian, fire and light, you may as well just call them vampires and be done with it. They even have thralls.

[Sevumar]

This is a possibility, but I don't think it's all that likely. There are a few things about Dawn that point to it being something other than a blade forged from meteoric iron. It's entirely possible that in an age where the dominant tool-making metal was bronze, that meteoric iron could offer access to a superior material without the difficulty of extracting it from ore. If one could recover a significant chunk of metal from an impact site, it would be workable and several ancient peoples did this in our own world.

The unusual appearance of Dawn suggests that its material is not easily identifiable as iron or iron alloy. The blade is so pale that it is most frequently compared to glass, which is the one plausible connection to "dragonglass." It could be that Martin has just decided to invent a fantastic material and we'll never get much in the way of explanation about how it came to have this appearance. However, I think that Dawn's appearance is distinct enough and mentioned often enough that it might be an important clue to the origins of the sword. Interestingly, I can't find any direct references to the blade of Dawn being described as metal. It is said to be "forged from the heart of a fallen star" which is a process that implies metalwork, but the material of the blade is never directly identified.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I think dragonsteel is valyrian steel, for a simple reason. Valyria (estd. 5000 years ago) didn't exist at the time of the War for Dawn (8000 years ago). So my guess is that the magic for Valyrian steel existed back then, but didnt have a name. I think the products were called dragonsteel likely due to the intense heat and (presumably) sorcery needed to forge them.

[Sevumar]

So my guess is that the magic for Valyrian steel existed back then, but didnt have a name. I think the products were called dragonsteel likely due to the intense heat and (presumably) sorcery needed to forge them.

I've raised this issue in the past, particularly as it relates to the Asshai'i penchant for magic and the close ties between Asshai and the Azor Ahai mythos. Asshai is known the world over for its affinity for magic, so much so that even when magic is said to have died after the Doom, it remained present in Asshai. If anyone could've discovered the techniques necessary for producing spellforged steel in the pre-Valyrian era, Asshai is the strongest candidate known to us.