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[Book Spoilers] EP307 Discussion

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Why? because not much happened? Have you read AFFC?

This episode seems to have the misfortune of having been written by the AFFC-GRRM instead of the ASOS-GRRM.

LOLs. So true, so true.

I have to agree with people who say that S3E07 (The Bear and the Maiden Fair) is the worst episode of the season, although it is tied with S3E02 (Dar Wings, Dark Words) for that record. The problem is that not enough happens. It's true that a lot of the plot develops through people speaking and information being transmitted between people and different ways, but still! I actually thought the best dialogue was given to Jon when he explains to Ygritte why "they" can't win.

I was sorta bummed out by the Tywin-Joffrey scene--I thought there would be more sparks. It looks like that was just a preview for a full-on Tywin-Joffrey (or is it Tyrion-Joffrey) slapfest in S3E08.

Is Talisa a spy? Possibly. It does seem odd how many letters she is writing. My (non-book reading) husband asked "Is she from the same place that Shae is from?" I think the answer is, yes, right? Aren't they both supposed to be from Volantis but one is a whore and one is a lady? It was nice to see Robb's butt :drool:

Best scene of the episode (of course) goes to Khaleesi and the dragons (they are looking amazing!!)

I have really no more to say about Theon/Reek. I really think the entire character could be eliminated without losing too much dramatic power of the story. The center of the story is the game of thrones, in what was does Reek/Theon contribute to whom will be sitting on the Iron Throne at the end of Book 7 (season 9?).

Edited by madprofessah

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I agree with people who complain about Tyrion's whitewashing. At this point, TV Tyrion is a completely different character than the book Tyrion. I will begin calling him TVyrion.

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3. Daenerys' parley with the Yunkai Head Nabob:

Can't remember the Yunkai Head Nabob's name from the book, if he had one. He should exchange some eyeliner tips with Captain Hook from Once Upon A Time, though. Anyway, impressive entry, the Head Nabob waltzing in by litter, escorted by his men and drums through the ranks of Dany's Unsullied. Dany holds court in a very queenly way; and I loved her dragons! Especially Drogon's nuzzling up to his mommy, how sweet.

I laughed at this, but Hook is hot. Even if "Nabob" got the eyeliner right he still can't pull off the same effect.

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I agree with people who complain about Tyrion's whitewashing. At this point, TV Tyrion is a completely different character than the book Tyrion. I will begin calling him TVyrion.

This is odd to say after the first episode in recent memory that actually mentions his carnal, darker side. You also have the benefit of looking at him through aDwD eyes where he truly degenerates. By the time he kills Shae (will definitely happen by the way - the chain is proof enough) and his father he will be at around the same point. I'm glad they never made him into a respectable warrior like the book does, though. I will never argue that up until now he's much more likable but to some degree that adds more power to his downward spiral.

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This episode definitely throws a curve ball at all the book readers doesn't it? Don't really know what to make of Talisa.

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I agree with people who complain about Tyrion's whitewashing. At this point, TV Tyrion is a completely different character than the book Tyrion. I will begin calling him TVyrion.

jamie, cersei, and tywin are also being whitewashed

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I'm an outlier but I don't mind the "whitewashing" of Tyrion at all; it's all about misdirection and shock value. Who among the non-book reading audience is ever going to expect him to murder Shae, pretty much in cold blood? Who is going to expect him, now so cowed by Tywin, to turn around and shoot him in the balls with a crossbow?

It's also a piece of symmetry, really: Tyrion experiences his downfall as Jaime is pulling himself out of a hole.

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On a side note - I hope they make it Joff's crossbow. Like he does something stupid in a council meeting he shows up to, so Tywin does not allow him to leave with the crossbow. Later, Tyrion uses it. It doesn't mean much, but it'd just be a bit of irony that Tyrion would use Joff's weapon (considering he despises Joff for his, among other things, passion for pain).

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Do you really think they'll have him kill Shae now? I get the feeling that Tywin will kill her and they will make it seem that Tyrion is avenging her. I think that's where he's headed, at least now.

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I think Tyrion giving her that chain of gold foreshadows some future events next season.

" Hands of gold are always cold but a womans hands are warm."

I also think that a certian singer will end up being stewed.

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jamie, cersei, and tywin are also being whitewashed

Regarding Tywin: Just because something isn't repeatedly brought into the forefront doesn't mean they are being whitewashed. We have heard the stories about what he has done, and unfortunately for the medium of television, there isn't that much time to go back and revisit told stories. You might wish people to have stronger reactions to characters by having them portrayed in a particular light, but that doesn't mean that's the only interpretation. What I get of Tywin is a brilliant man, who is utterly ruthless and brutal in his goals, but effects those goals in a strategic manner.

The challenge of the TV medium is that the audience must believe the character you are presenting, and to achieve that you must add in aspects of the character which are familiar to the audience. Consider what happens when you build up only the negative aspects of a character in order to create a villain. I don't think that many members of the audience can relate to the characters of Ramsay, Joffrey, The Mountain, or Locke, and as such there isn't much the audience expects from those characters. Complicated characters like Tywin are challenging to write as you must get the audience to 'buy in' to what the character is doing in order to avoid just seeing a villain to be killed off in the name of 'good'.

Now, regarding Cersie: She is also a complicated character, and you can't have her just jump into a sea of suspicion and paranoia right from the getgo and evoke the strongest emotions from the audience. The audience has to see her human side, they have to see her as a recognizable person, flawed, but understandable, and they MUST have some sympathy to her. It doesn't have to be a lot, but there must be enough. What this does is basically draw the audience in and makes her descent into paranoia that much more compelling and impactful.

It also provides a contrast. In television, you don't have that long to develop the various nuances, and the subtleties can often be lost if you try to show a transition from grey morality to greyer morality. That's why they are making these characters more sympathetic now, because it gets the audience to become more emotionally invested in the outcome.

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Do you really think they'll have him kill Shae now? I get the feeling that Tywin will kill her and they will make it seem that Tyrion is avenging her. I think that's where he's headed, at least now.

That's interesting. I think at this point that TV Tyrion killing TV Shae would be a significantly worse crime than it was in the books, and this might be much too abrupt a switch from white to dark grey of a character.

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My non-book reader friends informed me they now hate Sansa. She's discriminating because he is a dwarf. THAT is how it reads.

I haven't read the books and I thought the scene did a nice job showing the level of experience/maturity difference between Margaery and Sansa. I don't think it comes off as a "dwarf hater" scene as much as Sansa just being a silly little naive girl who needs to hop on the learning curve if she's gonna make it anywhere.

Edited by Kaiser Stormslayer

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That's interesting. I think at this point that TV Tyrion killing TV Shae would be a significantly worse crime than it was in the books, and this might be much too abrupt a switch from white to dark grey of a character.

They have a lot of time to build her up as resentful and hurtful to Tyrion, culminating in her testimony against him at the trial. If I remember correctly in the books she was quite vile in her testimony, basically accusing him of being a debauched rapist and sadist.

You are going to get a lot of shots of him being utterly devastated at being denounced in such a way by a person he loved that when and where he finally encounters her, I don't think it's going to be unbelievable. It will be quite shocking, but I thought it was incredibly shocking in the book as well.

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Been thinking about the Reek/Theon scenes. I thought they were absolutely necessary. There was never any reference to his testes, just his penis and I think they just cut the thing down - to parallel Tormund's tale, probably in half. If we ever know. He shows some signs of testicular urges later which were suppressed entirely by fear and malnutrition. Anyway, I am not sure that matters

My point is, despite the fact his teeth still look pretty good, after the cock-maiming there really isnt anything else Reek can do to him that will be worse. He's been flayed, maimed, dick-reduced, and made hopeless in many ways including a scene analogous to the Kyra adventure. Sadly there is no need to bash up his teeth at least on screen but otherwise I think they are done. I bet we dont see him in the torture chamber any more. Perhaps in the dungeons or otherwise serving Ramsay.

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Ive had about enough of how perfect the Lannisters are being portrayed.

How the heck are they going to shock us with their pathology if they start out looking bad? RW is coming. Qyburn is coming. Joffrey is being allowed to stay King.

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Regarding Tywin: Just because something isn't repeatedly brought into the forefront doesn't mean they are being whitewashed. We have heard the stories about what he has done, and unfortunately for the medium of television, there isn't that much time to go back and revisit told stories. You might wish people to have stronger reactions to characters by having them portrayed in a particular light, but that doesn't mean that's the only interpretation. What I get of Tywin is a brilliant man, who is utterly ruthless and brutal in his goals, but effects those goals in a strategic manner.

The challenge of the TV medium is that the audience must believe the character you are presenting, and to achieve that you must add in aspects of the character which are familiar to the audience. Consider what happens when you build up only the negative aspects of a character in order to create a villain. I don't think that many members of the audience can relate to the characters of Ramsay, Joffrey, The Mountain, or Locke, and as such there isn't much the audience expects from those characters. Complicated characters like Tywin are challenging to write as you must get the audience to 'buy in' to what the character is doing in order to avoid just seeing a villain to be killed off in the name of 'good'.

Now, regarding Cersie: She is also a complicated character, and you can't have her just jump into a sea of suspicion and paranoia right from the getgo and evoke the strongest emotions from the audience. The audience has to see her human side, they have to see her as a recognizable person, flawed, but understandable, and they MUST have some sympathy to her. It doesn't have to be a lot, but there must be enough. What this does is basically draw the audience in and makes her descent into paranoia that much more compelling and impactful.

It also provides a contrast. In television, you don't have that long to develop the various nuances, and the subtleties can often be lost if you try to show a transition from grey morality to greyer morality. That's why they are making these characters more sympathetic now, because it gets the audience to become more emotionally invested in the outcome.

A very good way to put it. I wish we still could 'Like' posts.

Reading the books, I knew I would hate Tywin if he was my father. But I also knew I would feel glad to be on his side because he is calculated, respected, powerful, and in control. He was never a villain, but he was still a bad guy. Ramsay is a villain. I can relate to Tywin in different ways because he is still a human character. Ramsay is a creature - I can in no way relate to him.

ETA: It sort of says something about GRRM's writing. We have these POV characters that we love and relate to, but we also have so many excellent side characters - the Hound, Tywin, Robb, Aemon, Bronn, Roose Bolton, Mance, Jorah Mormont, Tormund, and on and on. So many of us have favorite characters that do not receive a POV because they are still complex and human.

Edited by 7V3N

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But it would screw up the producers redemption arc that Jaime is already on.

Jaime is on a redemption arc in the books too so I fail to see how that would be a problem

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They have a lot of time to build her up as resentful and hurtful to Tyrion, culminating in her testimony against him at the trial. If I remember correctly in the books she was quite vile in her testimony, basically accusing him of being a debauched rapist and sadist.

You are going to get a lot of shots of him being utterly devastated at being denounced in such a way by a person he loved that when and where he finally encounters her, I don't think it's going to be unbelievable. It will be quite shocking, but I thought it was incredibly shocking in the book as well.

It still won't be the same. In the books she was always a worthless piece of garbage who wanted money and never cared about him. In the show she cares about him, she doesn't care about money, she wants to run away with him to Essos, so even if she testifies against him it won't be because she's a money grubbing bitch, who was stringing him on all along, but because she's hurt/scorned that he married Sansa. Totally different.

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