[book spoilers] PhD research thread: Mental images of THAT upcoming scene

[wolverine]

What seems most vivid to me is the look on Robb's face when he realizes it is all over for him.

My initial reaction was a feeling that this can't be really happening. Like they Robb was going to somehow fight his way out of it or live or something other than just die.

I am really looking forward to non-readers reaction to the scene on the show, though I think the impact will be lessened as Robb does not seem to be as endearing on the show as he was in the books.

[Talbot]

I am really looking forward to non-readers reaction to the scene on the show, though I think the impact will be lessened as Robb does not seem to be as endearing on the show as he was in the books.

I dislike when people say this, because it seems like you're (not you specifically) assuming that because show Robb isn't as likeable as book Robb in your eyes, non-readers feel the same way.

A huge majority of non-readers love Robb, love the idea of what Robb is, and love the Starks. This is the character they know and like, and because they dont compare him to the books, they like him just the same.

[morgan1028]

All the chapters leading to the Twins were kind of tense. I know Robb made the plan to take back the North and his will to Jon, but Cat's thoughts just gave me a uneasy feeling. When they got to the Twins and Greywind was made to stay outside I was thinking No Robb, don't let them, but he did. When Cat called for bread and salt, I was feeling slightly better. Old Frey's embarrassment to Robb made me cringe. Now at the Wedding: I know Cat was sensing something, even with the bedding she wasn't happy.. When Dacey asked that Frey to dance Edwyn, I think, and Cat noticed a look of fear on Dacey's face, I knew something was terribly wrong, and when Cat ran after Edwyn and grabbed his chainmail under his silks... yep. My heart was icy cold as I read that chapter, from Manderly getting an arrow in the throat, Dacey an ax in the belly, Can't remember his name but he was surrounded my 3 Frey's and being stabbed.. When Small Jon threw that table over Robb, that is when I started crying. Small Jon's beheading and the Heh, the king in the north arises. So much anger and pain. Roose you traitorous bastard. And then, for a moment I thought at least Cat will make it. Her pain is so great through out these books. I did put the book down because I couldn't see the pages through my tears. Next chapter I really did think Arya died. I read through those tears too. I really hope the show does it justice

[Ravi Seaworth]

All the chapters leading to the Twins were kind of tense. I know Robb made the plan to take back the North and his will to Jon, but Cat's thoughts just gave me a uneasy feeling. When they got to the Twins and Greywind was made to stay outside I was thinking No Robb, don't let them, but he did. When Cat called for bread and salt, I was feeling slightly better. Old Frey's embarrassment to Robb made me cringe. Now at the Wedding: I know Cat was sensing something, even with the bedding she wasn't happy.. When Dacey asked that Frey to dance Edwyn, I think, and Cat noticed a look of fear on Dacey's face, I knew something was terribly wrong, and when Cat ran after Edwyn and grabbed his chainmail under his silks... yep. My heart was icy cold as I read that chapter, from Manderly getting an arrow in the throat, Dacey an ax in the belly, Can't remember his name but he was surrounded my 3 Frey's and being stabbed.. When Small Jon threw that table over Robb, that is when I started crying. Small Jon's beheading and the Heh, the king in the north arises. So much anger and pain. Roose you traitorous bastard. And then, for a moment I thought at least Cat will make it. Her pain is so great through out these books. I did put the book down because I couldn't see the pages through my tears. Next chapter I really did think Arya died. I read through those tears too. I really hope the show does it justice

Reading your comment gave me goosebumps, because that really reminds me of what I felt while reading that chapter. It is not easy to cause the same impact on the show, because words can be much more powerful than images if properly used.

[morgan1028]

I think (hope) they will pull it off! I have never been so emotionally invested in fictional characters. I forgot to mention, I have been reading the books since '98. And I have re read them so many times, which I hardly ever do. I got HBO just for the show. My husband thinks I am crazy: you're reading that book again?

[Ravi Seaworth]

I think (hope) they will pull it off! I have never been so emotionally invested in fictional characters. I forgot to mention, I have been reading the books since '98. And I have re read them so many times, which I hardly ever do. I got HBO just for the show. My husband thinks I am crazy: you're reading that book again?

No, my story is different. I only read the first book around 2008, but only continued reading after the second season, which means that I read all the books in the past year. My memory is relatively fresh, except for those details I didn't capture in the first read.

[morgan1028]

In some ways you are lucky to read them in one go! Now, welcome to the waiting :bawl: When I found this forum, I knew that I wasn't alone... makes me feel a little less nerdy

[Thelastactionhero]

For some reason the Red Wedding effected me very little. I was puzzled for a moment, reread the chapter and moved on. I'm not sure if this is because I was never very emotionally invested in Cat or Robb as characters to begin with, or because I felt that I'd already experienced far more tragic moments in the series, but for whatever reason it didn't really get to me. The imagery is very memorable, particularly the sword through Robb's heart and Catelyn's meager attempt at vengeance on the mentally retarded Frey relative. I felt a little bad seeing how bad the Stark's had gotten fucked, and Arya being so close to finally reuniting with her family, but not enough that I needed to stop reading.

To be honest, for me it was the Viper's death that actually made me put the book down and walk away from it for a few days.

[morgan1028]

For some reason the Red Wedding effected me very little. I was puzzled for a moment, reread the chapter and moved on. I'm not sure if this is because I was never very emotionally invested in Cat or Robb as characters to begin with, or because I felt that I'd already experienced far more tragic moments in the series, but for whatever reason it didn't really get to me. The imagery is very memorable, particularly the sword through Robb's heart and Catelyn's meager attempt at vengeance on the mentally retarded Frey relative. I felt a little bad seeing how bad the Stark's had gotten fucked, and Arya being so close to finally reuniting with her family, but not enough that I needed to stop reading.

To be honest, for me it was the Viper's death that actually made me put the book down and walk away from it for a few days.

wow, really? I was mad at the RV death.. but we only knew him for a few chapters.. I was pissed he didn't kill the mountain.. that was about it. He was a seemingly cool character, but no emotions really, besides his fail. A little sad for Tyrion, but not so much because he got on my nerves.. just goes to show how differently people feel.. and that is awesome

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Its one of the most difficult chapters I've ever had to read to be honest....even to this day I still can't read it all the way thru without skipping one or two pages...

The reason being that if you take your time and read it slowly it just makes it that much more painful. It becomes painfully clear that something horrible is about to happen. All the signs are there in little bits and pieces and then the actual slaughter begins and you're just gutted.....

I really hope they don't show Catelyn's naked body being thrown into the river. And i really don't know if I can handle her clawing at her own throat.....

God this is going to be horrible....

[HopeForSpring]

The Red Viper's death upset me as well, particularly post the RW. It really does seem as if as soon as someone presents as awesome and really worth rooting for they have a target on their back, in a "too good for this world" sort of way.

I don't know if I would have been as upset if it hadn't come post Red wedding. That is one of the consequences of the RW to me. I have gotten both more attached to people who look like they have a glimmer of decency and more disassociated. I no longer have ASOIAF mentally filled under "light entertainment." I know, I know - why didn't that happen after Ned dying? Because that was still the first act and Robb becoming a successful King of the North would have been a pretty standard redemption cycle. Not so much with the standard redemption cycles, which means the ending might have life persisting but still pretty darn grim and short on uplift. I'm worried.

[Thelastactionhero]

wow, really? I was mad at the RV death.. but we only knew him for a few chapters.. I was pissed he didn't kill the mountain.. that was about it. He was a seemingly cool character, but no emotions really, besides his fail. A little sad for Tyrion, but not so much because he got on my nerves.. just goes to show how differently people feel.. and that is awesome

The fact that George's imagery has the capacity to effect people in such a multitude of ways is really beautiful to me. I realize the Viper himself was only around for a few chapters, but I'd been hearing about the horrible deaths of Elia and her children the past three books, and I think the tension from that really enhanced the emotions of the scene. Not to mention we all had proper cause to hate the Mountain for being such an evil son of a bitch since the first novel. In a few moments I found myself heavily emotionally invested in this duel, hoping to see the Viper exact his vengeance, hoping just once for things to go right in this brutal fantasy universe. But as we all know, reality is cruel, and George takes every chance possible to remind you of that. When I saw him come so close to avenging his dead family, only to have his face brutally smashed to pieces, I was really bothered. (Though I guess he gets his vengeance in the end to some degree) It's amazing how these books can grab you.

Like HopeForSpring pointed out, it probably had something to do with it being post-Red Wedding. Even though I wasn't totally crushed by Cat and Robb's deaths, it still added a lot of weight to the dark tone and gritty realism of the books. Watching the Viper bite the dust on top of everything just really went that extra step in showing how fucked up this world is.

[Keepsu]

Walder Frey: But that's a grandson ... and he never was much use.

"His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing ..."

This just tore me up inside.

[The Undead Martyr]

I have a tendency to read too quickly at times, I feel like I'm skimming the book. The Great Gatsby being a good example....

I was... maybe 16? when I first read the series.

First reactions:

Sandor's final line about the "bloody wedding" was the first moment I felt that the wedding was going to go to hell in a handbasket, but it just happened so quickly. Cat's scene has really, really, sunk in deeper on re-reads, especially after I grew up a bit.

my first reaction was one of stunned confusion; like I was the center of a hurricane watching the blood and mayhem around me. I had to reread the last few paragraphs of Cat's chapter just to truly come to grips with the macabre madness of it. It left a sickening in the gut. Then I turned the page, saw Arya's chapter and had an epic "oh shit, she's here too" moment. So, a vague unease leading up to it, Cat's chapter was a whirlwind of confusion that took a good while to sink in, then blind panic through Arya's chapter. I actually skipped ahead to find her next chapter; though I thought she survived, if only because of the Jaquen coin chekov's gun, I wasn't going to take it for granted.

My strongest impression was the bleak dreariness, panic, and chaos of it all. A mix of Cat's and Arya's chapters: a vague image of a scrawny girl in the mud and rain, a hazy, foreboding castle in the background; Grey Wind growling and shivering in the wind on the way in; a hard mail fist; and a disjointed jester's hat, with a half formed, half felt image of a blade grating against pale white bone, flesh sawed, hacked and shred like torn, soggy cardboard; and cat's "red tears" like a red Monster-logo tattoo running down her eyes.

Though this is as much in retrospect as anything. The scene just didn't sink in until much later, on later re-reads, when I could stop and consider the full implications of what had happened. That and I never really picture what I'm reading, aside from very vague, abstracted blurs and a few somewhat more distinct isles of detail. I'm not very visually inclined. :dunno:

As to POV:

I think that the Cat/Arya PoVs are inextricably intertwined from a meta-fictional and emotionally visceral perspective: mother and daughter, so close but forever beyond reach, a one-two punch if you will. If I had to pick a different or additional PoV, it would have to be right before or after the two of them together. If before it would have to end on a very high note of tension or unease, sort of like the ride up a coaster, ending on the very top of the hill; Cat was the eruption of violence and chaos and madness, that first lurching tip over the edge, and Arya was the panic and desperation and disappointment of the first wrenching fall, and the rest of the novel was the full ride itself.

How it might play out:

they need to highlight the tragic parallels between Cat and Arya, and convey a sheer chaos, keep the viewers off-balance and breathless for a bit. Madness and panic, quick, shaky, and far from clear, almost impressionistic in its depiction of the violence: say, a montage of death and violence inside and out, shaky close ups or even first person hazes of characters getting slaughtered or running around, with longer glimpses of Cat and Arya trying to make sense of the violence, the images gradually focusing and becoming more focused as the two of them start to understand what's going on. Finally a long, agonizing image of Cat seeing Robb die and then her descent into madness, and Arya's flight.

It will be loud, brutal and bloody. A lot of flipping between Cat and Arya, a lot of background chaos.

[Tyrion4President]

Definitely the image of Cat clawing at herself. Plus Rob calling for Grey Wind.

Sorry to go slightly of topic, but does anyone (just follow me for a sec) think that a non book reader will see rob with a wolf's head and then jump to some crazy conclusion that he'll spring back to like as a wolf/man hybrid? I mean really if your a non book reader and your jumping to conclusions trying to be "that guy" who is always predicting the end of movies you could really jump to that conclusion especially in a show like this that is unpredictable.

A little off topic but I didn't no where else to ask that question.

lol i can soo picture that happening. and i bet one of my non reader friends will say that. will keep you posted.

[Steve Stark]

I think (hope) they will pull it off! I have never been so emotionally invested in fictional characters. I forgot to mention, I have been reading the books since '98. And I have re read them so many times, which I hardly ever do. I got HBO just for the show. My husband thinks I am crazy: you're reading that book again?

This is me, except it's my wife that thinks I'm crazy. I just tell her to leave me alone when she does the whole, "You're reading that again?" thing. But the way I look at it, I've read them all many times, but I still read 3 to 10 times more than anyone else I know. I think my wife is just irritated because I'm so into the books, and she couldn't get through the first one. What can I say, she is beautiful, she likes knives and guns, she's good with money, she's a wonderful mother and wife....but she doesn't like ASOIAF. I just don't know what the heck is WRONG with her. lol

EDIT: At least she likes to read...and she's gorgeous. She still needs to read these effin books.

[Heir to the North]

I had heard the term "Red Wedding" but never spoiled myself. I figured it was going to be Joffrey's marriage and some shit went down at it or that it was just some spectacular and outrageous scene.

First time reading it, the way the chapters leading up to it seemed really short flipping back from Arya to Cat was...weird and un-nerving since no chapters had done that so far in the book. The rain was a great big forboding backdrop that just didn't feel right either. Grey Wind being seperated from Robb was a big red flag and even invoking the Guest Right really felt forced or not honest at least, on the part of Walder Frey.

I was listening to radio chatter at the time too so I didn't have all my attention on it when I was reading the RW chapter. When Cat slaps Edwyn, and the first crossbow bolts start firing I was all of a sudden as confused as the Stark wedding party. I kept reading, now all my attention on the words in front of me denial, fear and panic setting in with each page turning. I too was hoping for Northmen to come to Robb's aid. I still couldn't believe what I was reading when they slit Cat's throat. Feeling like being in the midst of a storm is a good description, kinda how I felt since I didn't have all my attention on it at first. I wasn't quite sure what was going on.

I had to re read that chapter 3 or 4 times after that just to make sure I had read it correctly. When finally I accepted what happend...I felt...numb. I knew something was going to happen to Robb, breaking the vow to a Frey girl, beheading Karstark, I knew something was going to happen. I thought he would be killed in battle or taken prisoner and beheaded in KL exactly on the spot where his father was executed(sounded GRRMish enough). But, not this.

The Purple Wedding had a somewhat uplifting, but mostly bittersweet effect on me. After the brutality of the RW, it just didn't really feel like 'justice' or the 'revenge' I wanted.

I think I really felt broken after the Red Viper didn't kill the Mountain and seemed to have died for nothing. After all those(heartwrenching, outrageous), events...I really don't think I felt anything at all when Tyrion killed Tywin.

[FLight]

What I remember most vividly about that scene was how awful I felt when Catelyn held Jinglebell as her pitiful bargaining chip. Did she really think that her son - a king who has earned many enemies who would see him dead - could be saved with Jinglebell? Of course not. Lord Walder's response to her holding Jinglebell "hostage" was such a slap.

Even more vivid: Catelyn holding her promise and taking Jinglebell's life. It really hit me how she literally had no options or hope left to turn to - surrounded by enemies, her loved ones and comrades all dead around her - while holding a useless hostage. Would taking Jinglebell's life help or change her fate in any way? Of course not - but I felt she was being fueled by despair, futility, anger.

Honestly, Catelyn's last moments pretty much sum up the Red Wedding for me. Which I guess is saying something, since I absolutely detested Catelyn when I first read the books.

[-Ghost-]

I knew something was up, but had no idea it would go down like that. The whole situation was weird. The whole feast felt off. I found it weird that the chapters kept switching from Cat to Arya too.

The scene I remember most is when Robb gets up from under the table and Cat telling him to get up and walk out of there and her trying to make a deal with Walder. You kinda get the slightest, tiny, smallest bit of hope that maybe Robb will make it out, but then in comes Roose. That was crushing. I had to put the book down after that. I remember thinking like wtf just happened? I even knew in advance that he was going to die, not when or how, but I never imagined it would go down like that. I dont think I realized how much I liked Robb until after the RW happened.

I dont think the show will have the same effect on me. It will still, in a way, suck to go through that again, but it wont be the same. Book Robb is a lot better. I also dont think the scene will be as good as I have it in my head, but thats expected. I hope they dont change it too much.

[nubreed000]

I knew before I even finished the first book that Robb and Cat were going to die in the third book, so I was expecting it, but the effect was still huge me. The scene that stood out the most was the finishing blow on Robb ("Jaime Lannister sends his regards"), and then Catelyn's death with her begging "Please not my hair, Ned loves my hair"...that was very powerful.

I don't think the show will get it right. The way Robb's story was translated into the show, it doesn't have any emotion, in my opinion. I'm not sure how non-book readers feel about Robb, but I really wish they would've done a better job in the show, with his story. At least then I would be dreading the Red Wedding, whereas now I feel like it's just a chore that needs to get out of the way.