New Sample Chapter

[Lord Varys]

Another interesting point of that chapter is that Varys seems to not have left Westeros with Tyrion. But where DID he go? Highgarden? Dorne? Stokeworth? Staying in KL?

Varys is described as following in the new sample chapter and in Tyrion's last chapter in ASoS: 'The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head.'

So it seems possible that Varys infiltrated the Faith in AFfC and could so be responsible for many events that have occured in AFfC.

One should re-read AFfC to find proof ;-). So it's not unlikely that the Tyrells have not that big part in Cersei's downfall...

[WhiteQueen]

I disagree with your take on Tyrion -- I think he's more burdened by morals than the rest of his family, and I think there's a lot more to his POV than fun and one-liners.

Tyrion wants to be loved. It's his weakness. He just found out that his family drove away one person who truly loved him. He's also been shown to be one of the few Lannisters who's not a completely callous bastard.

Moreover, he's freaking drunk. Have you never been familiar with the thought patterns of a good drinking bout, when you get obsessed with one idea and keep going on about it?

As for Tyrion's being burden with the morals -- I do not see him praying in the sept like Ned Stark to his trees. Tyrion's goal is to benefit himself and, I will give you that, not do much harm to anyone else. How about him doing something awful to Simeon the Bard, or sleeping with whores? Like I said -- not overly burdened. As for wanting to be loved, he does not know whether Tysha "truly loved" him. All he knows, she was not a whore (by occupation). So is Cersei, but she is still a slut.

I do understand him obsessing over Tysha in a drunking stint, but that's my point -- quit drinking already and do something!

[DanteGabriel]

As for Tyrion's being burden with the morals -- I do not see him praying in the sept like Ned Stark to his trees. Tyrion's goal is to benefit himself and, I will give you that, not do much harm to anyone else. How about him doing something awful to Simeon the Bard, or sleeping with whores? Like I said -- not overly burdened.

Tyrion does bad things -- I'd never say he was an innocent. And I have to laugh at the idea that praying in a sept is any indicator of true virtue. But he did his best to protect King's Landing from Stannis's assault even as his sister was trying to undercut him. He personally led a sortie during the battle when it looked like the King's Gate might fall. He refused to take Sansa's maidenhood against her will. He was a friend to Jon Snow and designed a saddle for Bran, even though all the other Starks had ever given him was scorn.

As for wanting to be loved, he does not know whether Tysha "truly loved" him. All he knows, she was not a whore (by occupation).

He knows that Tysha was his wife and that he was happy with her. She truly was a crofter's daughter, chance met on the road, that they'd rescued from brigands. She was the same age as him (thirteen), which makes it highly doubtful that there was any guile or duplicity in the way she treated him.

I do understand him obsessing over Tysha in a drunking stint, but that's my point -- quit drinking already and do something!

Jesus Christ, give him a chapter to deal with all the recent events. After all he'd been through, from his trial, to Oberyn's death, to finding out about Tysha, to killing his father, I'd find it pretty unbelievable if he hit the docks scheming and ready to go.

[WhiteQueen]

Tyrion does bad things -- I'd never say he was an innocent. And I have to laugh at the idea that praying in a sept is any indicator of true virtue. But he did his best to protect King's Landing from Stannis's assault even as his sister was trying to undercut him. He personally led a sortie during the battle when it looked like the King's Gate might fall. He refused to take Sansa's maidenhood against her will. He was a friend to Jon Snow and designed a saddle for Bran, even though all the other Starks had ever given him was scorn.

He knows that Tysha was his wife and that he was happy with her. She truly was a crofter's daughter, chance met on the road, that they'd rescued from brigands. She was the same age as him (thirteen), which makes it highly doubtful that there was any guile or duplicity in the way she treated him.

Jesus Christ, give him a chapter to deal with all the recent events. After all he'd been through, from his trial, to Oberyn's death, to finding out about Tysha, to killing his father, I'd find it pretty unbelievable if he hit the docks scheming and ready to go.

Stannis' assault? If he was burdened with morals, he would have recognized that his bastard nephew should not be on throne and would not take a part in the Civil War that tore the country apart. As for refusal to consummate his marriage, that does not make him a virtuous man -- he had his whore, whom he would see on a regular basis, what fun could he find in the unwilling arms of an unskilled innocent girl like Sansa? In retrospect, I wish he did it, so she will be not dishonored by Petyr Baelish, as I fear might happen.

As for him and Tysha, like you said they were 13, and now he is what? like in his mid 20s? How could he still care that much (love or no love).

As for drunken stupor, again, I find it a sign of weakness, which is uncommon for Tyrion. What does it have to do with other people? Like you are asking me "have I ever what not". Maybe, but it's not out of character for me. It is out of character for him. Never mind what events he went through. Do you think it was easier for anyone else in the series? Yet they did not become annoying.

[DanteGabriel]

Stannis' assault? If he was burdened with morals, he would have recognized that his bastard nephew should not be on throne and would not take a part in the Civil War that tore the country apart.

Re-read his speech before he led the sortie out of the King's Gate. It wasn't to save Joffrey's neck that he rode out -- it was to save King's Landing from another bloodbath.

As for refusal to consummate his marriage, that does not make him a virtuous man -- he had his whore, whom he would see on a regular basis, what fun could he find in the unwilling arms of an unskilled innocent girl like Sansa? In retrospect, I wish he did it, so she will be not dishonored by Petyr Baelish, as I fear might happen.

But Tyrion desired Sansa. He wanted to fuck her. And he didn't.

I'm not sure there's much point in me responding to your other points. You have a very different reading on Tyrion's personality than I do, and nitpicking over events that we interpret (and apparently remember) differently isn't going to do either of us any good.

[WhiteQueen]

I'm not sure there's much point in me responding to your other points. You have a very different reading on Tyrion's personality than I do, and nitpicking over events that we interpret (and apparently remember) differently isn't going to do either of us any good.

[DanteGabriel]

Can't agree more. I will never understand how one could enjoy this pointless chapter, after they like the character in the previous books.

Yea, I know, you are the only one who understands Tyrion (just like Tysha is the only person who "truly loves him")

I'm trying to disengage from a discussion in a civil fashion. I never claimed to be the only one who understands Tyrion. I never claimed that Tysha is the ONLY person who truly loves him. Maybe you ought to work on your reading comprehension, and refrain from the dickhead commentary.

[WhiteQueen]

"the dickhead commentary", "fuck Sansa" -- very eloquent and indeed in civilized fashion. Thanks!

[DanteGabriel]

"the dickhead commentary", "fuck Sansa" -- very eloquent and indeed in civilized fashion. Thanks!

No, see, I'm just a "Renaissance man" in a Dark Age, like Tyrion. I'm not overburdened by the morals of my day. That's why I understand him so much better than you.

I find it pretty funny that such a self-professed Tyrion fan is getting all hot and bothered over curse words.

[WhiteQueen]

No, see, I'm just a "Renaissance man" in a Dark Age, like Tyrion. I'm not overburdened by the morals of my day. That's why I understand him so much better than you.

I find it pretty funny that such a self-professed Tyrion fan is getting all hot and bothered over curse words.

I am not bothered at all when Tyrion curses. You are not him, though... Or are you? Since you understand him so well.

Okay, maybe I am being obnoxious. I am sorry if I were.

[The Lord Dragon]

Stannis' assault? If he was burdened with morals, he would have recognized that his bastard nephew should not be on throne and would not take a part in the Civil War that tore the country apart. As for refusal to consummate his marriage, that does not make him a virtuous man -- he had his whore, whom he would see on a regular basis, what fun could he find in the unwilling arms of an unskilled innocent girl like Sansa? In retrospect, I wish he did it, so she will be not dishonored by Petyr Baelish, as I fear might happen.

As for him and Tysha, like you said they were 13, and now he is what? like in his mid 20s? How could he still care that much (love or no love).

As for drunken stupor, again, I find it a sign of weakness, which is uncommon for Tyrion. What does it have to do with other people? Like you are asking me "have I ever what not". Maybe, but it's not out of character for me. It is out of character for him. Never mind what events he went through. Do you think it was easier for anyone else in the series? Yet they did not become annoying.

Your take on Tyrion in this chapter seems way off base to me. How can you not understand that Tyrion loved Tysha. Tysha represents what anyperson who is shunned and mocked like Tyrion has been his whole like desires. He wants to be loved sincerely. Tysha didn't care how he looked, didn't care that he was a dwarf, didn't care/know that he was a Lannister. She wasn't with him for money or power. She wasn't pretending to not be disturbed by his looks. That is priceless to Tyrion. There is no one else in the world who he can be as sure loves him for himself. His family loves him because they are related, others respect or fear him because of his family name and wealth. His father took away this greatest gift of love from him and led him to dishonor his wife. If you can't understand how that knowledge would put you in a murderous mood, followed by soul crushing despair, then I can't understand how you are human.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I see we're being needlessly perjorative today. If that's the way the wind is blowing, let no man say that I do not also blow. You assholes.

Whyteboar, I find interesting that this is supposed to be the first time that Tyrion is obsessed with Tysha. It makes me wonder exactly which Tyrion chapters you were thinking of when he was unburdened by this particular obsession. Certainly it wasn't the scene between him and Bronn on the high road, where he told the story. Nor was it the scene where he told it _again_, to Shae, in ACoK. Nor could it have been his telling it to Sansa, nor any of the times he ruminated about it to himself.

Now, of course Tyrion is _more_ obsessed with it than he had been, and you find this unconvincing. To wit:

As for him and Tysha, like you said they were 13, and now he is what? like in his mid 20s? How could he still care that much (love or no love).

Except, it's not like, Tysha just wasn't that into him, or Tyrion broke up with her unadvisedly, or something. It's more like, Tywin humiliated Tyrion by demonstrating in very public fashion how Tysha only ever loved his coin. That, at least, is how he saw it--or wanted to see it--before his last chapter with Jaime. But actually, it was even worse than that: his first love was brutally gang-raped, and he was complicit in that rape, as he now admits.

Now, I'm sure that when you gang-rape the odd fourteen-year-old girl, it doesn't bother you a bit. Tyrion, I'm afraid, is not made of such fine a stuff as that. When he rapes somebody, especially somebody that he loved and cared about, it bothers him quite a bit, and this would appear to get in the way of his witticisms. This is all very unfortunate, and I too hope that he snaps out of this stupid I-betrayed-the-only-person-who-ever-was-truly-loyal-to-me shit and starts cracking wise, but until then we'll have to live with the fact that Tyrion is just a giant pussy.

[The Lord Dragon]

This is all very unfortunate, and I too hope that he snaps out of this stupid I-betrayed-the-only-person-who-ever-was-truly-loyal-to-me shit and starts cracking wise, but until then we'll have to live with the fact that Tyrion is just a giant pussy.

That last line made me laugh out loud. Very funny.

[WhiteQueen]

Now, I'm sure that when you gang-rape the odd fourteen-year-old girl, it doesn't bother you a bit. Tyrion, I'm afraid, is not made of such fine a stuff as that. When he rapes somebody, especially somebody that he loved and cared about, it bothers him quite a bit, and this would appear to get in the way of his witticisms.

Dear Fat Man:

I do not gang rape fourteen year old girl, because I am a girl and was fourteen once and nearly raped a few times back in my teens when I did not listen to my parents and made friends with unworthy people. That's why your wit was wasted on me. Please, read your own words, and understand we have nothing to discuss. Your take is different from mine (maybe because I am a girl), fine. You will not convince me, nor will I you. I still don't know why you think Tysha was THAT into him. I mean she did not try to convince him that she was not a whore, did she? And Jaime actually sees it as it is. Just because she was a crofter's daughter, it does not make her not a whore as far as her intentions towards Tyrion who, let's face it, is not an oil painting. I assure you that any "true loves" I had when I was 13/14, were of absolutely no interest to me in my 20. And that's me, an immature 21st century person. Now, since the longevity in Middle ages is lower than in our world, and people grew up (mentally and emotionally) faster, thenall this Tysha grief is not conceivable to me , particularly coming from someone as complex and intersting as Tyrion. I am afraid I have to concentrate on my work now and have to log off. But please feel free to further show me my lowly place in your wonderful posts.

Regards, Blanc Sanglier

[Brandon Stark]

I'm taking the preoccupation with where whores go as some sort of realization that he's whored himself out. So much is guided by his lust for casterly rock now, a fact shown in his elaboration on the "other" things whores sell themselves for and his snapping at Illyrio over the rock being his.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Well, all right. Since I accused you of being a rapist, obviously now I feel terrible.

...

Wait a second, that's not what happened at all! I made a sarcastic remark where the implication was that (a) everybody knows that rape is a terrible thing, and therefore ( only by ignoring the rape factor can you conclude that Tyrion's current obsession is at all out of character. The idea that you would be blase about the rape of a child was supposed to be ludicrous. Otherwise it wouldn't fit with the argument I was trying to make.

And I assure you, I had no intention of running afoul of anything in your personal history. That's because, as you may not have noticed, my post had nothing to do with you personally. I don't know you. I didn't even know that you were a woman until just this moment. So don't pull this manipulative shit; I don't know where your place is, nor, honestly, do I give a fuck whether you're there or not. All I was responding to was your comment quoted (and obv. also your attitude towards DanteGabriel).

[DanteGabriel]

WhyteBoar, I'm going try to give you some friendly advice (though I doubt you'll receive it as such)...

Try not to take everything personally. I was trying to agree to disagree with you and you went and made it personal with that "I'm sure you're the only one who understands Tyrion" crap.

And when you're losing your argument, please don't try and retreat into this "Oh, you bad men, you have offended my tender sensibilities" trip. As Fat Man pointed out, it's manipulative.

[Benjen]

Ah. Very refreshing to read Tyrion again. I don't think I could have lived another day without the mention of Tyrion's mule (i.e. cock, junk, johnson, package, etc.) . He really is one dark twisted little MFer. But I think the news about the dragons will bring him back up a little. Not to mention that he may just have learned a way to actually claim Casterly Rock.

He certainly appears to be ........ off the chain. He seemed to have some odd moral compass up to the end of SoS. The Battle of the Blackwater and events in SoS took a very heavy toll on him, and after all that's happened, his perception of himself has been shattered.

So he drinks away the pain and is bitter and dejected. I think he is likely take a turn for the better, but also that he has lost some of his humanity. He's openly vengeful now towards his family, where before he just harbored vindictive thoughts. He has perceived himself as having crossed the line (As in he is hated by gods and men alike). I think that makes him very dangerous, given the right tools.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Another, less contentious observation. This tradition continues the growing evidence of Lannister children wanting to emasculate Tywin in one form or another. Tyrion here fantasizes about hitting Tywin in the cock. Meanwhile, Cersei has some memorable moments of her own in AFFC.

Aurane had asked her leave to name [the new royal flagship] Lord Tywin, which Cersei had been pleased to grant. She looked forward to hearing men speak of her father as a "she." (p. 414, UKhb)

And of course the most obvious example is Cersei setting fire to the Tower of the Hand. While she watches the tower burn, she thinks "of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought." (p. 184, UKhb) So, to free herself of Tywin's influence, among others, she sets fire to his giant, not-phallic-at-all tower.

[High Septon]

Alright, that chapter rocked.

I'm glad about having Tyrion back, and find his Tysha "obsession" - especially in drunken shape - quite natural. After all, his wedding and the subsequent rape does shape him a lot in the three earlier books, even if he refuses to think about it most of the time. Now, after burning all bridges, he gives it free reign.

For a brief time I thought Tyrion had finally become the Mr.Hyde-Tyrion Cersei and many others think him - the leering and mocking without the compassion. But he's actually pained quite a bit throughout the chapter - about Jaime, about the serving girl (whom he actually is pretty quick to point out hasn't displeased him) and so forth.

This is the first Tyrion chapter, right? I was mildly disappointed to see the first Cersei chapter in AFFC, when the sample chapter actually seemed to summarize almost everything of importance.