New Sample Chapter

[Dagordur]

For a brief time I thought Tyrion had finally become the Mr.Hyde-Tyrion Cersei and many others think him - the leering and mocking without the compassion. But he's actually pained quite a bit throughout the chapter - about Jaime, about the serving girl (whom he actually is pretty quick to point out hasn't displeased him) and so forth.

Quite an important catch on that lil detail I think. Through the whole chapter, Tyrion is in a sour mood. He even tries to escape his own pain by hurting the slave girl. His quick and positive reaction to Illyrios question however suggests that he already feels bad about it. I was fairly pissed that the chapter broke of before Illyrion actually told Tyrion about Dany, but I think it would be even more interesting to see what happens in his room afterwards. There's a good chance of Tyrion finding back to his old self at the prospect of helping Dany to the throne, and I have the feeling that the slave girl is in for an unsuspected appology

[Prince of the North]

Your take on Tyrion in this chapter seems way off base to me. How can you not understand that Tyrion loved Tysha. Tysha represents what anyperson who is shunned and mocked like Tyrion has been his whole like desires. He wants to be loved sincerely. Tysha didn't care how he looked, didn't care that he was a dwarf, didn't care/know that he was a Lannister. She wasn't with him for money or power. She wasn't pretending to not be disturbed by his looks. That is priceless to Tyrion. There is no one else in the world who he can be as sure loves him for himself. His family loves him because they are related, others respect or fear him because of his family name and wealth. His father took away this greatest gift of love from him and led him to dishonor his wife. If you can't understand how that knowledge would put you in a murderous mood, followed by soul crushing despair, then I can't understand how you are human.

I think you're right. I think Tyrion is desperate to connect with someone, anyone on a purely personal level. As stated above, his whole life has been full of relationships of obligation and fear with a couple of noted exceptions. We've seen that Tyrion feels he truly connected with Tysha on a romantic/platonic level and we saw a glimpse of true platonic friendship between Tyrion and Jon Snow. If Tyrion and Dany become true friends (they have far too many goals in common not to, IMHO), she will have a very good, loyal friend indeed. Because, given Tyrion's past, I don't think he will betray or allow himself to be influenced into betraying anyone he loves (platonically or romantically) ever again.

I also got the impression in the sample chapter that Tyrion's treatment of the Lysene girl was born of frustration. It seemed as if he wanted her to talk with him and to stop maintaining the emotionally distant lord-servant relationship (just like all the other servants he'd tried to talk to who ignored him). It's as if he was saying "have an opinion, tell me what you think and not what you think I want to hear" and when she didn't he got frustrated and tried to scare her a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if he apologizes to her or at least we hear his internal thoughts about feeling bad about it. Also, this is Tyrion we're talking about, folks! He'll come out of his funk leaner and meaner and that's probably very bad news for Cersei. I don't think Tyrion will truly kill Jaime. Jaime has another role to play but that's another debate.

[Crazydog7]

God help me I swore I would never read a spolier chapter on the website ever agian. Oh well that one didn't last very long

Is this wine Donnish? Reminds me of a mountain I knew. Very droll fellow untill a mountain fell on him.

God I missed the imp.

[Werthead]

Hmm, since the disagreement seems to have burned itself out I'll let those comments pass. Please remember to be courteous to your fellow board-members and try to engage in discussion in a civil manner (I'm not naming names here, I'm just putting this out to everyone).

To drag the thread onto a more fruitful course, which factor do you see as Tyrion's greatest worth to Dany?

Tyrion has a few good skills Dany can use:

Immense knowledge of the Great Houses of Westeros.

A ready-made battle plan for "reducing the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland."

A ready-made army of savage tribal warriors camped in the Kingswood (what, you think GRRM put them there for no reason?).

Tyrion knows the secrets of Casterly Rock, including weaknesses?

Possible allies in a variety of places. Tyrion was on good terms with Jon Snow and Garlan Tyrell and could treat with them when the time comes for them to surrender. Tyrion's friend (okay, ally) Bron is gaining more power and influence near King's Landing the whole time.

Or, the rather obvious answer, Tyrion's read up a lot on dragons and might be able to help tame Dany's?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The idea that Tyrion was just looking for honest conversation with the Lysene girl sounds like so much wishful thinking. He basically blows her off. Take, for example: "My name--"/"--is of no interest to me. Do you know where whores go?"; "I will tell you nothing. Do me the same favor." His thoughts reflect this attitude; he first thinks that "the only part of you that interests me is between your legs," but then concludes that "even her cunt did not interest him much." He's not interested in her, he's obsessed with Tysha.

And there's absolutely no indication that he feels guilty about the encounter afterwards, either. When he says that she "did all that was required of her," it's not an indication that he approved of her, but that he doesn't want to sleep with her. If he had suggested that she was deficient somehow, he most likely would have been saddled with another bed-warmer, which he's not interested in. In short order, he dismisses her as "royal leavings," beneath his interest. Pace High Seption, that's hardly a 'positive reaction'; it's a blithe dismissal.

[Faceless Man of Braavos]

Great chapter...

Feast sure could have used dose or two of Impish wit.

The potential revenge Tyrion could unleash on those who crapped on him over the years is absolutley limitless. Can't wait...

[Survivor of Saltpans]

Great! I love free samples.

Something jumped out on me halfway down: "a cedar chest inlaid with lapis and mother-of-pearl. The clothes had been made for a small boy, he realized as he struggled into them."

I instantly recalled the exact(?) same description of a clothes-chest. I think it belonged to Robert Arryn Dun-dun-dun!

I don't have the book nearby, but that description really hit me in the face. I hope I'm wrong, otherwise it implicates Littlefinger as being involved in operation Dany-Drop. And worse, Tyrion is waddling around in Sweetrobin's underwear.

[High Septon]

And there's absolutely no indication that he feels guilty about the encounter afterwards, either. When he says that she "did all that was required of her," it's not an indication that he approved of her, but that he doesn't want to sleep with her. If he had suggested that she was deficient somehow, he most likely would have been saddled with another bed-warmer, which he's not interested in. In short order, he dismisses her as "royal leavings," beneath his interest. Pace High Seption, that's hardly a 'positive reaction'; it's a blithe dismissal.

It could be viewed as such, yes. I don't think it is though.

Oh, sure, he didn't want another bedwarmer, but he need only complain about her attitude in general (while still declining Illyrio's offer) to get her into real trouble (not that either Tyrion nor we know much about Illyrio at this point). I see the response as reflexive, and typical of the decent guy Tyrion is deep inside. We do lack internal monologue at this point however, so it's just my take on the situation.

As for Jaime, to me it seems rather like Tyrion is undecided. Sure, he thinks about Jaime's head rotting besides Cersei's, but it seems like an afterthought - it's Cersei's head he visualizes. And he doesn't think badly of his brother during the rest of the chapter - to me it seems rather like he refuses to think about his conflicting legacy (saving yet betraying Tyrion) at all.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Oh, sure, he didn't want another bedwarmer, but he need only complain about her attitude in general (while still declining Illyrio's offer) to get her into real trouble (not that either Tyrion nor we know much about Illyrio at this point).

All that really says is that Tyrion didn't compound one crass move with another. I don't think his decency is involved there either; he doesn't care enough about her to fuck her or fuck with her.

As for Jaime, to me it seems rather like Tyrion is undecided. Sure, he thinks about Jaime's head rotting besides Cersei's, but it seems like an afterthought - it's Cersei's head he visualizes. And he doesn't think badly of his brother during the rest of the chapter - to me it seems rather like he refuses to think about his conflicting legacy (saving yet betraying Tyrion) at all.

Tyrion is obviously a little conflicted there, sure; although he actually talks about killing Jaime more than once. But he's already basically declared war on the Lannister family by killing Tywin; and joining with Dany is another step along that road. Tyrion may not end up killing Jaime personally, but Dany is going to want the Kingslayer well and dead. He may be conflicted, but he's essentially already made the decision.

To draw an analogy, arguably Cersei is conflicted about Falyse and Senelle, but she still sent them to Qyburn. I don't know that that really obviates a person all that much.

[High Septon]

Immense knowledge of the Great Houses of Westeros.

This I think valuable. Tyrion is well-read and a good judge of character and politics as well. He will provide good advice here.

A ready-made battle plan for "reducing the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland."

Since I'm in the "Littlefinger plotting (or at least preparing) for Dany's return" camp, I don't think this will give him much credit.

A ready-made army of savage tribal warriors camped in the Kingswood (what, you think GRRM put them there for no reason?).

A good point, but ultimately minor

Tyrion knows the secrets of Casterly Rock, including weaknesses?

Yes, this is plausible (I'd hardly think there's some kind of secret passage to be found here though, so it shouldn't prove too decisive).

Possible allies in a variety of places. Tyrion was on good terms with Jon Snow and Garlan Tyrell and could treat with them when the time comes for them to surrender. Tyrion's friend (okay, ally) Bron is gaining more power and influence near King's Landing the whole time.

I don't know about this one. Sure, Jon liked Tyrion and vice versa, but quite a lot has changed. Ser Barristan would probably prove a more trusted man to parley with in general.

Or, the rather obvious answer, Tyrion's read up a lot on dragons and might be able to help tame Dany's?

I'm afraid this will prove the key

Which makes me wonder - since Illyrio and Varys shouldn't possibly have been able to guess this latter, but still seem to think Tyrion valuable - is this some kind of prophecy-thingy-conspiracy yet unknown to the reader? Especially since Illyrio does make a remark about "three heads" in the end of the chapter (too be picky this should mean that the three heads are already in place and Tyrion thus isn't one of them, but I don't think it's meant to be taken that literally).

To draw an analogy, arguably Cersei is conflicted about Falyse and Senelle, but she still sent them to Qyburn. I don't know that that really obviates a person all that much.

Hm, I'd rather use the Baratheon brothers analogy here: Renly "knew" Stannis would be killed in battle - but Stannis OTOH killed Renly in person.

If Jaime ends up dead after Dany's invasion, to what extent will Tyrion be to blame? This is, I think, a difficult question and one of degrees. And while it must be pretty obvious to Tyrion that Dany will want the Kingslayer dead, we don't know his course of action yet. Obviously he will end up joining Dany, but will he try to parley with her somehow? As for now, we lack info about his thoughts here.

Oh well, perhaps it's just me hoping Tyrion is wallowing in his drunken bitterness right now and will remain a more or less decent character throughout the books

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I thought this was a great chapter, and I felt terrible for Tyrion.

I thought the contrast between him and Jaime is great. Jaime went throughtout AFFC with one sentence tormenting him, the "she slept with kettleblack...moonboy for all I know" line.

Tyrion is tormented to, by "where whores go" line.

And this is why I love Tyrion more than Jaime. Jaime is still all about how he has been betrayed, Tyrion is feeling injustice on behalf of someone else. the "she loved me and she put her trust in me line" says it all, he hates Tywin for what happened, but it isn't self-pity, he doesn't absolve himself, he feels that he betrayed Tysha and let her down. That's the real source of his depression. He is disgusted with himself. I have yet to see Jaime even once feel bad about flinging a boy out a window.

Tyrion has a conscious, Jaime wants to have one but doesn't actually have one.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

HS:

Especially since Illyrio does make a remark about "three heads" in the end of the chapter (too be picky this should mean that the three heads are already in place and Tyrion thus isn't one of them, but I don't think it's meant to be taken that literally).

Interesting thought. On the face of it, the "dragon with three heads" need only be a reference to the Targaryen standard. However, Illyrio, in the second Tyrion chapter, says something to the effect of, "The dragon has three heads; there's no need for haste." It would appear to be something that Illyrio puts a great deal of store in. (Assuming that that line has been removed in subsequent revisions, that is.)

I have a theory that Varys has a prophetic agenda, but in my version Illyrio isn't really a part of it (because V. seems to be manipulating and misleading I. when they meet in AGoT). So who knows what's going on there.

[Summer]

Many thanks mate! Many thanks!!

[Prince of the North]

The idea that Tyrion was just looking for honest conversation with the Lysene girl sounds like so much wishful thinking. He basically blows her off. Take, for example: "My name--"/"--is of no interest to me. Do you know where whores go?"; "I will tell you nothing. Do me the same favor." His thoughts reflect this attitude; he first thinks that "the only part of you that interests me is between your legs," but then concludes that "even her cunt did not interest him much." He's not interested in her, he's obsessed with Tysha.

And there's absolutely no indication that he feels guilty about the encounter afterwards, either. When he says that she "did all that was required of her," it's not an indication that he approved of her, but that he doesn't want to sleep with her. If he had suggested that she was deficient somehow, he most likely would have been saddled with another bed-warmer, which he's not interested in. In short order, he dismisses her as "royal leavings," beneath his interest. Pace High Seption, that's hardly a 'positive reaction'; it's a blithe dismissal.

You and I don't disagree in any way.

[Sam the Slayer]

I seriously hope he's going to the wall with the Letter that Ned wanted to write....

Nah, too good to be true

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I seriously hope he's going to the wall with the Letter that Ned wanted to write....

One assumes that any decent master of whispers would have a way to get messages delivered back and forth over long distances with some amount of secrecy. Otherwise, Pycelle would know everything that Varys knows, and that seems unlikely. So I imagine if Ned wrote that letter, and if Varys wished to send it, he would have done so.

I can't see Ned entrusting a valuable secret to a letter that's going in the hands of somebody he neither likes nor trusts, no matter how desperate he got. If it's R+L=J, he has to be aware of the possible risk to Jon should it be revealed.

[Wouter]

The "King" who previously enjoyed the skills of the Lyseni whore must be King Viserys, right?

I agree, only Viserys makes sense. The Lyseni girl probably was even referenced in AGOT's first Dany chapter, IIRC.

I agree with those who think that Tyrion comes off unsympathetic in this chapter; he behaves really like an ass at times. It is implied that he was ready to let Myrcella (and himself) die in a futile queenmaking attempt just to get back at Cersei. I once asked the question on those boards if Tyrion would have done what was necessary to protect Sansa against Cersei should Jaime have been killed by the Starks. His behaviour when hurt badly (as in this case with jaime's revelation) seems to be such that he could let harm come to innocents despite even liking the person in question.

I understand his murderous feeling on Jaime though, Jaime did lie about Tysha after all and that made a lot of difference (Tyrion trusted him).

I hope his battle plan for the Vale doesn't come into play with Dany; that also wasn't his finest hour IMO (would Dany want the Vale to be a smoking ruin like the Riverlands have become?).

His first-hand knowledge of Westerosi houses will be of great value to Dany though, as well as his general knowledge on Westeros and (most probably) dragons.

I was also associating the apparently mute boy on the ship with Varys' "little birds".

Illyrio also comes of confusingly, he makes some infuriating remarks on slavery and such (he better won't repeat that in Dany's hearing) and is dismissive of Westerosi houses and their heraldic animals - except for the Dragons, it seems. The three-heads line at the end seems to suggest that he knows about the AA prophecy (or something like it), and it's interesting that he notes the coming famine in Westeros. So, on the one hand he seems a bit like the wise man pointing out the way to save Westeros and on the other hand he still comes off as a cold-blooded bastard who views his servants as mere tools to be discarded when not needed anymore. Illyrio's and Varys' true motives continue to elude me. What game are they playing?

[Jaxom 1974]

The "King" who previously enjoyed the skills of the Lyseni whore must be King Viserys, right?

Also my immeadiate first thought.

Something jumped out on me halfway down: "a cedar chest inlaid with lapis and mother-of-pearl. The clothes had been made for a small boy, he realized as he struggled into them."

I instantly recalled the exact(?) same description of a clothes-chest. I think it belonged to Robert Arryn Dun-dun-dun!

I don't have the book nearby, but that description really hit me in the face. I hope I'm wrong, otherwise it implicates Littlefinger as being involved in operation Dany-Drop. And worse, Tyrion is waddling around in Sweetrobin's underwear.

I cannot comment on the chest of clothes. Maybe someone else can. But I also referenced this comment back to Viserys.

***

Great bits.

All in all, this is the type of smaple that will get the people frothing for ADWD. Here's hoping for next year!

edited for specifics...

[DanteGabriel]

About the chest of clothes:

I assumed it was some of Viserys' old clothes. IThe clothes were musty, which meant they hadn't been used in some time. And there would be a certain amount of humor in Tyrion going off to meet Dany dressed in the hand-me-downs of her brother.

[wvlr]

Great! I love free samples.

Something jumped out on me halfway down: "a cedar chest inlaid with lapis and mother-of-pearl. The clothes had been made for a small boy, he realized as he struggled into them."

I instantly recalled the exact(?) same description of a clothes-chest. I think it belonged to Robert Arryn Dun-dun-dun!

I don't have the book nearby, but that description really hit me in the face. I hope I'm wrong, otherwise it implicates Littlefinger as being involved in operation Dany-Drop. And worse, Tyrion is waddling around in Sweetrobin's underwear.

Sweetrobin's clothes!!! The description I had of Tyrion from his wedding night with Sansa was that he was mostly a normal man except for his legs. Sweetrobin is a stunted (small) child. I really do not think that they are his.

My bet would be that they are Visery's (sp) old clothes.

It is a great chapter! I think that I have seen it or parts of it before, but this version is much better and more gripping as well. I find all his behavior to be perfectly in character for the Tyrion that I have seen before, especially considering his recent trials and his previous obssesion with Tysha.

Go Tyrion!!! I want to see him Train some Dragons!!!

How much does he know about Jamie's turning Kingslayer? I know that he is thinking about killing Jamie but those are idle thoughts. He may be the one to keep Dany from killing his brother or not.