There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[The Idiots Lantern]

We've already been told that trees only exist in the courtyards of the mighty and wealthy in Braavos and we already know that Dany and Viserys stayed with wealthy people throughout the Free Cities. The simple 'red door and lemon tree' life that Dany yearns for in Braavos is basically what she has -servants and fig trees and courtyards - just without the mess of having to rule.

You should give her more credit then that. Ruling doesn't bother her. What she wants isn't lemon trees and red doors, but what those things represent to her: kindness, security, a feeling of being loved, a feeling of belonging, a feeling of being HOME.

Basically that's what Dany's drive to pursue the crown boils down to. She believes it's her duty to restore the Targaryans to power, so she must have an army, she must be queen, she must not look back or doubt herself but live up to the legacy of her ancestors, blood of the dragon, so on and so forth. Really, she just wants to go home. And she thinks, probably rightly, that the only way to get there is on dragonback, with an army following after her.

[Nest]

I've never been to Venice.Can anyone say how it is there,because Braavos is inspired by Venice.

I was in Venice last year and I saw a lemon tree growing in a pot on a window ledge.

[Ser Lepus]

You should give her more credit then that. Ruling doesn't bother her. What she wants isn't lemon trees and red doors, but what those things represent to her: kindness, security, a feeling of being loved, a feeling of belonging, a feeling of being HOME.

Man, she will suffer such a crash with reality when she gets to know Westeros...! :devil:

[Wolf in Hallowed Places]

Obviously the lemon tree is just a glamour...it was really a faceless man warged into immobilisation by Howland Reed or Arthur Dayne...or possibly Nimble Dick.

[booh]

I've never been to Venice.Can anyone say how it is there,because Braavos is inspired by Venice.

I live near Venice and here lemon trees don't survive winter outdoors, OTOH I really don't know if GRRM knows that. :dunno:

[Ser Lepus]

I've never been to Venice.Can anyone say how it is there,because Braavos is inspired by Venice.

I live near Venice and here lemon trees don't survive winter outdoors, OTOH I really don't know if GRRM knows that. :dunno:

I think Braavos is a mix of Venice with some elements from Amsterdam and Bruges (Bruges used to have a seaport during the Middle Ages), but its climate is mostly like that of Amsterdam...which makes the existance of lemon trees even less likely than in Venice.

[TorCub Tormundson]

its entirely possible for people of westeros to be 6'7'' easily (gregor is a freak in every sense of the word) there is the case of the "indios patagones" or "indios tehuelches" on southern Argentina a.k.a La patagonia they were 2 Mts tall (6'7'') on average with men being usually taller than that and women a little shorter and they had only stone age technology before the arrival of the conquistadors.

[Ser Lepus]

its entirely possible for people of westeros to be 6'7'' easily (gregor is a freak in every sense of the word) there is the case of the "indios patagones" or "indios tehuelches" on southern Argentina a.k.a La patagonia they were 2 Mts tall (6'7'') on average with men being usually taller than that and women a little shorter and they had only stone age technology before the arrival of the conquistadors.

Those people had a very protein-rich diet, however, getting a lot of their food through hunting, while the Westerosi (save the nobility) eat very little meat.

[The Night's Prince]

Yesssssss. Fake. The reason she's been given false childhood memories is............. she had no childhood. She's a dragon.

I don't know if you are trying to be funny or if this is just your shtick but it's starting to come off as mocking and boorish.

[Neumond]

If it has a Gulf Stream climate, you could bring in the soil a and make a terrace or even a simple mound and plant the lemon tree in it, watering it from the aqueduct if necessary.

Point being, if the climate isn't frigid, you can make whatever you want grow there, with just a little elbow grease. Some fairly rich guy could do this with a lemon tree.

Absolutely. I have a Lemontree on my terrace. (Living in a very mild mid-european climate...). But I have to say, with these loooong winters in westeros, I doubt you could grow them in unfitting climate. My Lemontree goes inside before the first frostbites and out after the last. Last winter was very long (with snow in march, very uncommon in this area) and the tree suffered a great deal. He needed three months of summer to come back in shape and I´m afraid of the next winter. So I really doubt you could grow them when you have to consider years of winter...

[TorCub Tormundson]

Those people had a very protein-rich diet, however, getting a lot of their food through hunting, while the Westerosi (save the nobility) eat very little meat.

gregor eats the hearts of his victims.

[Ser Lepus]

gregor eats the hearts of his victims.

Gregor Clegane is both nobility AND a freak. I'm speaking of the general population.

[Dragonmag170]

I was in Venice last year and I saw a lemon tree growing in a pot on a window ledge.

It is also likely that Dany was in Braavos in the middle of the last winter; Bran was born at the beginning of a 9-year long summer (which ended in book 3) and Dany is 14 when she gets pregnant with Drogo's child. The memory she had was from when she was 4 or 5, so she was in Braavos (supposedly) either during or immediately after the previous winter.

Absolutely. I have a Lemontree on my terrace. (Living in a very mild mid-european climate...). But I have to say, with these loooong winters in westeros, I doubt you could grow them in unfitting climate. My Lemontree goes inside before the first frostbites and out after the last. Last winter was very long (with snow in march, very uncommon in this area) and the tree suffered a great deal. He needed three months of summer to come back in shape and I´m afraid of the next winter. So I really doubt you could grow them when you have to consider years of winter...

That pretty much says it all. That lemon tree would have died during the previous winter, making it nearly impossible for Dany to see said lemon tree in Braavos.

I think that the implications of this theory are far more interesting. It makes sense, to me, that the Targaryens would have loudly made it known that they were in Braavos (well, loudly for people trying to stay quiet) while really hiding out... maybe in Dorne? Giving time for their contract to be written and signed. Robert would have been looking in the entirely wrong part of the world for her.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I love the fact that this thread refuses to rest even though the OP tried to wrap it up several pages ago (what is dead may never die? ;))

On the whole height issue (which imo is the most interesting point raised in the resurrection and has absolutely nothing to do with lemon trees-lol) it might be of interest to some of you to know that men in medieval Europe (10th-12th C) averaged less than 1/2" shorter than modern American men. Also, if you had an ancestor in early 19th C America there's a good chance they were taller than you. Human height over time is affected by many factors including climate. diet and disease, leading to average height being a series of peaks and valleys rather than an increasing progression.

[Grey Words]

As a new person here, I'm going to stick my neck out and post on this thread that won't die. I think the OP is very interesting and in thinking about lemons representing innocence, it seems that lemon trees are synonymous with wealth, privilege and are surely a luxury in much of this WoIaF. A child living in a wealthy aristocrat's house might have a better chance at having their innocence prolonged, especially a girl as a protected maiden. The proposal that this house with the red door was the Sealord's house seems to fit the possible circumstance of that Sealord dying as a reason for Dany and Viserys being turned out, which would have been quite traumatic of for her. Wandering the streets under the "care" of her brother might have been a period full of situations that Dany repressed.

As far as a lemon tree growing on Braavos, if a Sealord was able to have a menagerie full of animals from all over the world, he could probably find a way to have a lemon tree in his courtyard - even if he had to replace/transplant one every year when it died.

[Sonnet]

Never thought about it until now. GRRM is quite deliberate, I tend to think that there is something going on when he repeats a minor seeming point, over and over. Like the name of Tyrion and Penny's ship meaning fragrant servant, seemed like rather pointless filler but then I began to wonder if it were the perfumed seneschal. You might be on to something.

[Alhazred]

Yolkboy: good research. And I think it is more likely a clue than a mistake.

But I think the clue, if it means anything, means she was not in Braavos. I don't think much of the psychological theory.

As for the counter-evidence (the Martell's discussing it), I think we now have cause for skepticism. But can you direct me to where they discuss it?

[yolkboy]

Never thought about it until now. GRRM is quite deliberate, I tend to think that there is something going on when he repeats a minor seeming point, over and over. Like the name of Tyrion and Penny's ship meaning fragrant servant, seemed like rather pointless filler but then I began to wonder if it were the perfumed seneschal. You might be on to something.

Yolkboy: good research. And I think it is more likely a clue than a mistake.

guys this is my stance on the issue now fwiw...

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry4467075

[Greymoon]

I think Braavos is a mix of Venice with some elements from Amsterdam and Bruges (Bruges used to have a seaport during the Middle Ages), but its climate is mostly like that of Amsterdam...which makes the existance of lemon trees even less likely than in Venice.

Why should the climate be mostly like Amsterdam? all the rest of the free cities seem to enjoy a warm climate.

In Sansa's chapters the Vale is already covered in snow, but in Arya's we see no snow in Braavos...And winter is already on its way. It makes me think that we can expect a rainy/misty winter, but not a really cold one. Yes, Amsterdam does not get really cold I think, but the summer is not really hot. And that we can’t really say about Braavos.

Braavos is at the crossing of the Narrow sea and the Shivering sea. A poster a few pages back as speculated about a Gulf Stream effect, which is not so unlikely if you consider the two seas touching. There must be some streams at their crossing. South of the Narrow Sea there is the Summer Sea. I've imagined the Narrow Sea like the Mediterranean Sea, and the shivering sea like the Atlantic. Of course that doesn't really explain why the Vale and Braavos should have a different climate, though the Vale is a mountainous region. The Pyrenees get cold, even when the summer is hot and warm on the sea side, just a few kilometers away. Either way, same latitude does no equal same climate....

In any case, Braavos being made up of islands, at the crossing of two seas, would account I think, for a changeable, windy climate, but not necessarily cold. Arya is wearing a tunic, and it rains. Sam and Gilly want/wish for a fire, that's true, but I still don't think Braavos is really cold.

"Her tunic was so threadbare that the wind cut right through it." Arya p. 465. "Arya turned her face up to let the raindrops wash her cheeks." p. 466.

Amsterdam is an oceanic climate, so I don't see why Braavos should be the same, and not closer to northern Spain, southern France or Italy. The shape of Westeros does seem suspiciously inspired by GB, but I don't think the Narrow Sea can be compared to the English Channel, and the climates in Dorne and the free cities to that of Western Europe - though Dorne reminds me of Spain...but I could as well say, that it reminds me of some parts of Iran. ;)

Could Braavos be compared to Cornwall? or Brittany? I think that's possible, but all the same, I still perceive Braavos as slightly warmer. In my mind, I've always seen Braavos as a busy, warm place, a Venice/Alexandria mix. I know that there is no true reason for that, it's just the way I imagined it. But yes, Braavos is probably colder, and Pentos fits that imagery better...

Anyway. We just don't have any indication really about the climate in Braavos, besides that it is misty, windy and rainy. That tells us little about the temperatures, and nothing at all about the summer season. And even if the winter is cold, it's possible to put lemon trees indoors.

I also believe it likely that Westeros has a colder climate as a whole, considering how close the Lands of Always Winter are.

But even if it isn't quite so warm as I imagined, since the summer is now just ending, Dany would have been in Braavos mostly during summer, or not? That makes it possible IMO. Maybe it was a young lemon tree, no more than a year or two old, and nothing says the tree wasn't grow in a galss garden, and put outside later. Lemon trees don't have to be planted in the ground, but are well enough in a pot. There's is just too many things that we don't know about Braavos and the circumstances of the tree.

Completely different topic...but what this about height speculation on world population? Statistics are rarely accurate anyways, because a lot of countries don't have any statistics to offer. Countries like Liberia, Chad, Gabon, Jordan, Kenya, Argentina, Egypt, Ethopia, Columbia etc. don't have any available data either because they don’t want to, or don’t have the means for population counts and statistics.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Why should the climate be mostly like Amsterdam? all the rest of the free cities seem to enjoy a warm climate.

In Sansa's chapters the Vale is already covered in snow, but in Arya's we see no snow in Braavos...And winter is already on its way. [...]

We have ice forming on the canals there though, so the temperatures are definitely dipping below 0 (and have been for some time, as that info is from when Tycho left Braavos). Of course, Braavos's climate should be colder as the other Free Cities', as it's clearly the northernmost one (about the latitude of the Neck).