There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[profilebegone]

True, but GRRM has said he wishes he made the Wall shorter. 700 feet tall is a bit too much.

Didn't know that, interesting if true.

The Cleganes are said to be an incredibly large family, and given that they are not commonfolk (the House stemmed from a kennel master) they have likely had some degree of selection in their reproduction (meaning, they choose spouses that are larger to keep the size within the family). In modern America, there has been an incredible amount of mixing among people of different sizes, races, etc. because people are far less superficial than back in medieval times. Therefore, Americans are much closer to the mean and will continue to get closer to it.

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Modern Americans are, on average, vastly taller than any human society that preceded us due to our extremely high nutrient diet. Also, since there are 300 million Americans, likely quadruple the number in Westeros, it is that much more likely to produce an extreme outlier. The odds of anyone of Gregor Clegane's height existing in a medieval-like world, barring a disease of some kind that would be unlikely to render him a capable warrior (or even alive at age 34), is just truly improbable to the extreme. But that's cool! Westeros isn't real!

[WildBlood]

I thought there was some text that said he had a form of gigantism, which is why he drinks so much milk of the poppy for headaches... I could be wrong. But in a world where actual giants exist he isn't so far fetched. ;)

[MRHD]

True, but GRRM has said he wishes he made the Wall shorter. 700 feet tall is a bit too much.

Yep I read that as well, and at the height that the Wall is it definitely creates problems... such as the fact that with the bow technology wildlings have shooting an arrow 700 feet, even horizontally, would be a challenge. 700 feet vertically, much less with the force to penetrate anything, would be impossible. Little things like this remind you that GRRM is only human and can't account for every little detail like some infallible deity, like say if he were to put a lemon tree in an environment where it would be impossible for a lemon tree to actually grow. ;)

[7V3N]

Didn't know that, interesting if true.

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Modern Americans are, on average, vastly taller than any human society that preceded us due to our extremely high nutrient diet. Also, since there are 300 million Americans, likely quadruple the number in Westeros, it is that much more likely to produce an extreme outlier. The odds of anyone of Gregor Clegane's height existing in a medieval-like world, barring a disease of some kind that would be unlikely to render him a capable warrior (or even alive at age 34), is just truly improbable to the extreme. But that's cool! Westeros isn't real!

It is indeed true. I originally read it on an SSM, not the linked on here, but it'll have to do.

The Wall is filmed in a quarry in Ireland. There's basically this huge cliff, and the section used for the wall is painted white. There is a working elevator built to go up the side of the cliff (I mean, the one in the book and show). The quarry drops towards the centre where there is a lake where water collects. The first time there, GRRM looked up the side of this huge cliff and asked someone what the depth was from the top of the cliff to the bottom of the quarry, and was told "400 feet". And he said he looked up again and said, "Shit, I made the wall too high."

And what I said definitely makes sense. America is built up of everyone from everywhere. Our nutrition and medicines do make us taller and healthier, but with everyone mixing together we are less likely to have these traits that are typically only found in people of X race/ethnicity or location. Instead, intermixing will cause offspring to become more and more alike, and in general that also means that instead of heights being from A to Z, they will be from say F to U--the implication being that the range will shrink. It's actually common sense what I am saying. For a simple example, look at dogs and breeds. Mixing of different breeds causes dogs to have traits from both. So as mixed breeds reproduce with mixed breeds, they will exhibit a sort of (near)average of all of those different breeds in their genetic history, rather than still holding the unique traits of their pure-bread ancestors.

[profilebegone]

Yep I read that as well, and at the height that the Wall is it definitely creates problems... such as the fact that with the bow technology wildlings have shooting an arrow 700 feet, even horizontally, would be a challenge. 700 feet vertically, much less with the force to penetrate anything, would be impossible. Little things like this remind you that GRRM is only human and can't account for every little detail like some infallible deity, like say if he were to put a lemon tree in an environment where it would be impossible for a lemon tree to actually grow. ;)

DON'T YOU SAY THAT! IF THE LEMON TREE SHOULDN'T BE IN BRAAVOS IT MEANS DANY IS REALLY ELIA OF DORNE GLAMOURED AND MIND-WARGED BY BITTERSTEEL.

:rofl:

[profilebegone]

It is indeed true. I originally read it on an SSM, not the linked on here, but it'll have to do.

And what I said definitely makes sense. America is built up of everyone from everywhere. Our nutrition and medicines do make us taller and healthier, but with everyone mixing together we are less likely to have these traits that are typically only found in people of X race/ethnicity or location. Instead, intermixing will cause offspring to become more and more alike, and in general that also means that instead of heights being from A to Z, they will be from say F to U--the implication being that the range will shrink. It's actually common sense what I am saying. For a simple example, look at dogs and breeds. Mixing of different breeds causes dogs to have traits from both. So as mixed breeds reproduce with mixed breeds, they will exhibit a sort of (near)average of all of those different breeds in their genetic history, rather than still holding the unique traits of their pure-bread ancestors.

Interesting about the Wall! Nobody's perfect.

Height is normally distributed, everywhere at all times. The standard deviation of height isn't lower in the modern US than anywhere else. Certainly isolated communities can develop extreme traits, but I'd just chalk up the immensity of the Clegane family to "wouldn't it be cool if there was a family of evil near-giants."

[no_payne_no_gain]

I think that this topic should really be addressed by GRRM himself, it's the only way to assert whether or not this is a planning error or something bigger than that.

we could go on endlessly; argue about lemon trees and agriculture with the little evidence we have. The only way to get clarification is to go to the top.

[7V3N]

Interesting about the Wall! Nobody's perfect.

Height is normally distributed, everywhere at all times. The standard deviation of height isn't lower in the modern US than anywhere else. Certainly isolated communities can develop extreme traits, but I'd just chalk up the immensity of the Clegane family to "wouldn't it be cool if there was a family of evil near-giants."

Definitely true, I was just pointing out the ways it could make sense. The same goes with the whole 'the seed is strong' thing with the Baratheons having black hair in all circumstances (except Show!Renly, not sure how they got away with that when the biggest plot revelation for the first season/book is 'Baratheon, black of hair... Joffrey Baratheon, golden hair").

[7V3N]

I think that this topic should really be addressed by GRRM himself, it's the only way to assert whether or not this is a planning error or something bigger than that.

we could go on endlessly; argue about lemon trees and agriculture with the little evidence we have. The only way to get clarification is to go to the top.

The best way to do that is in person. Most clarifications like this happen when he is asked at a book signing/reading or something like that. I believe that is how the 'Jeyne hips' got resolved.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think that this topic should really be addressed by GRRM himself, it's the only way to assert whether or not this is a planning error or something bigger than that.

we could go on endlessly; argue about lemon trees and agriculture with the little evidence we have. The only way to get clarification is to go to the top.

I don't think Martin would give anything but a vague "read carefully" answer.

We've already been told that trees only exist in the courtyards of the mighty and wealthy in Braavos and we already know that Dany and Viserys stayed with wealthy people throughout the Free Cities. The simple 'red door and lemon tree' life that Dany yearns for in Braavos is basically what she has -servants and fig trees and courtyards - just without the mess of having to rule.

[yolkboy]

Yeah this thread need to R-I-P.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87889-there-are-no-lemon-trees-in-braavos-questioning-danys-childhood/page__st__100#entry4467075

[7V3N]

I don't think Martin would give anything but a vague "read carefully" answer.

No, he only does that if it is something that he wants people to see for themselves, things he plans to add on to or reveal, or things he doesn't have an answer to. He owns up to his mistakes when someone points them out to him. Then again, his answer would tell us if it is important or simply a mistake. We just need enough people to attend events and get a chance to ask him, then fill us in.

[Dr. Pepper]

No, he only does that if it is something that he wants people to see for themselves, things he plans to add on to or reveal, or things he doesn't have an answer to. He owns up to his mistakes when someone points them out to him. Then again, his answer would tell us if it is important or simply a mistake. We just need enough people to attend events and get a chance to ask him, then fill us in.

This isn't one of those horse changing genders type of mistakes. The red door and lemon tree exist throughout the books, as well as Dany's general ignorance about class and whatnot. The landscape of Braavos is described to us over the course of two books and via two different POV's. We learn fairly early on that Dany and Viserys lived a very posh life, if not a stable life.

Dany yearns for a place in Braavos that was wealthy enough to have a red door and a courtyard with a tree. A place where she was called little princess, where she had servants, where she didn't have to make any decisions or think about ruling. She's yearning for that charmed life when she thinks of the lemon tree and the red door and she thinks it was simple.

[7V3N]

This isn't one of those horse changing genders type of mistakes. The red door and lemon tree exist throughout the books, as well as Dany's general ignorance about class and whatnot. The landscape of Braavos is described to us over the course of two books and via two different POV's. We learn fairly early on that Dany and Viserys lived a very posh life, if not a stable life.

Dany yearns for a place in Braavos that was wealthy enough to have a red door and a courtyard with a tree. A place where she was called little princess, where she had servants, where she didn't have to make any decisions or think about ruling. She's yearning for that charmed life when she thinks of the lemon tree and the red door and she thinks it was simple.

If someone asked "Could a lemon tree grow in Braavos?" I don't think he'd refuse to answer. Like I said, he would either say "Yes" disproving this theory, "No" which would give this theory credit and add the follow up, "How did Dany's house in Braavos have a lemon tree?" in which he could give a direct answer - "I made a mistake" or a "Keep reading," which would give this theory more credit. There's no reason he flat out wouldn't answer it, especially if you actually look at all the question he has answered--including the answer "Keep reading," which confirms that he is aware of what you are talking about. Like I said before, even if his answer is obscure, it would at least let us know if this was a simple mistake, since nobody has asked him (and posted it) yet.

Also, the lemon tree isn't that persistent, the Red Door is. Overall, these are pretty much abandoned once she acquires a real power, once she is actually a queen with her Unsullied, because she rarely looks back. On the contrary, she even tells herself constantly not to look back.

[Ser Ennepe]

sheesh, 8 pages discussing lemon trees and no one thought about posting

!? shame on you! :P

well yeah, back to topic: good Idea Yolk!

I don't think Martin would give anything but a vague "read carefully" answer.

We've already been told that trees only exist in the courtyards of the mighty and wealthy in Braavos and we already know that Dany and Viserys stayed with wealthy people throughout the Free Cities. The simple 'red door and lemon tree' life that Dany yearns for in Braavos is basically what she has -servants and fig trees and courtyards - just without the mess of having to rule.

:agree:

[Red Raven]

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Modern Americans are, on average, vastly taller than any human society that preceded us due to our extremely high nutrient diet.

We're ninth today.

"U.S. adults lost their position as the tallest people on Earth to the Dutch, who average about two inches taller than the typical American. In fact, American men now rank ninth and women 15th in average height, having fallen short of many other European nations."

1. Netherlands

2. Sweden

3. Denmark

4. Norway

5. Estonia

6. Finland

7. Germany

8. Greece

9. US

10. Australia

http://www.washingto...7081200809.html

[Frey family reunion]

Kicking around the internet and I came across the lyrics for a song, Lemon Tree, by a german band called Fool's Garden, which was released in 1995 (a little over a year before AGOT was published). Found some of the lines interesting including:

Isolation is not good for me

Isolation

I don't want to sit on a lemon tree

I'm stepping around in the desert of joy

Maybe anyhow I'll get another toy

And everything will happen

And you'll wonder

I wonder how

I wonder why

Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue, blue sky

And all that I can see is just another lemon tree

I'm turning my head up and down

I'm turning, turning, turning, turning, turning around

And all that I can see is just a yellow lemon tree

[Roadside Rose]

Kicking around the internet and I came across the lyrics for a song, Lemon Tree, by a german band called Fool's Garden, which was released in 1995 (a little over a year before AGOT was published). Found some of the lines interesting including:

I loved this song as a kid. And when I read about the lemon tree in AGOT, this Fool's Garden song is the first thing that came to my mind.

[profilebegone]

We're ninth today.

"U.S. adults lost their position as the tallest people on Earth to the Dutch, who average about two inches taller than the typical American. In fact, American men now rank ninth and women 15th in average height, having fallen short of many other European nations."

1. Netherlands

2. Sweden

3. Denmark

4. Norway

5. Estonia

6. Finland

7. Germany

8. Greece

9. US

10. Australia

http://www.washingto...7081200809.html

But we were #1 for a while...

*breaks out foam finger* WE'RE #9! WE'RE #9!

[Elaena Targaryen]

I'm curious just how cold does it get in Braavos? Do we know? If not what do all of you think?

Braavos is a collection hundreds of Islands sitting at sea level in a vast lagoon. The purity of the water and soil is a problem - there's a big chance it could be very infertile for plant and tree growth in general. Also, the canals are not freshwater like in Dorne, Sam has to boil it before drinking (indicating likely brackish water).

I know yolkboy has already dismissed the theory and thread but I wanted to point out that the "purity of water and soil" may not be an issue...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Braavos

Braavos sprawls across a hundred islands in a vast lagoon.^[5] The nearby mainland is mostly marshland, whilst the seaward sides of the city are protected by tall, mountainous islands which form a semi-circle around the city. Firewood is brought in by barge, while pines on the islands surrounding the city are left to act as windbreaks to protect the harbors, and are illegal to cut down.^[6] ...The city proper lies beyond, a great sprawl of domes and towers and bridges in hues of grey, gold, and red.^[3] The city is comprised of a hundred islands linked together by small stone bridges spanning the many canals throughout the city. There are no trees to be found within the city, making Braavos a city of stone architecture and granite monuments.

The water from the lagoon is brackish and briny and the canal water is not drinkable without first boiling it.^[3] Towards or beyond the heart of the city, above the houses and canals there is an aqueduct -- a grey stone roadway supported by three tiers of arches traveling southwards. It looms above the canals and houses. Called the Sweetwater River, it brings fresh water from the mainland across the mudflats and the briny shallows. Rich men pipe it directly into their homes, while commoners fill buckets at public fountains.