There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[MRHD]

Or maybe a secret targ?

R+L=LT? The implications are staggering.

[Theralion]

A more correct title is Dany's Lack of Childhood

[Roadside Rose]

There is another mention of the Red Door in AGOT.

What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?" she asked him.

"Home," he said. His voice was thick with longing.

"I pray for home too," she told him, believing it.

Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khaleesi."

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

I think the red door symbolizes home for her. The reason she sees red doors on the houses at King's Landing & Dragonstone is because she believes that is her true home.

The fire blazing in every window may be a foreshadow of things to come, once Dany gets to Westeros.

[7V3N]

All in all an interesting catch and theory. Though I do not want to write this off, we must keep in mind that GRRM has made mistakes (such as the infamous hips of Jeyne) and could have made one here. As someone posted before me, GRRM could have done this before he fleshed out Braavos. Having said that, let me move into analrapist theralyst mode.

There is another mention of the Red Door in AGOT.

What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?" she asked him.

"Home," he said. His voice was thick with longing.

"I pray for home too," she told him, believing it.

Ser Jorah laughed. "Look around you then, Khaleesi."

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.

I think the red door symbolizes home for her. The reason she sees red doors on the houses at King's Landing & Dragonstone is because she believes that is her true home.

The fire blazing in every window may be a foreshadow of things to come, once Dany gets to Westeros.

I definitely agree that the Red Door symbolizes home for Dany. She is driven by Viserys' madness to the point that she says Westeros is her home, but in her heart it was always the house with the red door.

I find it suspicious here that GRRM writes "In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights." The combination of "mind's eye" and "thousand lights" makes me think of the third eye that skinchangers possess, and the thousand eyes (and one) of Lord Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers.

Because, as those who have read The Mystery Knight and/or A Dance With Dragons know that Bloodraven has a thousand eyes and one and is an incredibly powerful greenseer. There are other references to the "thousand eyes and one" such as Sansa in the godwood of King's Landing, but that is for another time.

Could be a hint at her powers that she gets from her Valyrian blood/dragon eggs, or it could be nothing at all.

I went ahead and searched all ASOIAF novels (plus the Dunk & Egg novellas) for "lemon tree" and the only occurrence is in A Game of Thrones, then the vision in tHotU which only furthers my suspicions that GRRM made a continuity error.

[Roadside Rose]

All in all an interesting catch and theory. Though I do not want to write this off, we must keep in mind that GRRM has made mistakes (such as the infamous hips of Jeyne) and could have made one here. As someone posted before me, GRRM could have done this before he fleshed out Braavos.

I went ahead and searched all ASOIAF novels (plus the Dunk & Egg novellas) for "lemon tree" and the only occurrence is in A Game of Thrones, then the vision in tHotU which only furthers my suspicions that GRRM made a continuity error.

I don't think the lemon tree and the red door are a continuity error like the 'hips of Jeyne Westerling'. Like OP pointed out that there are no lemon trees in Braavos. I think this is a huge clue as to Dany's true origins.

Any house could have a red door. But in Storm of Swords, there are multiple mentions of lemon trees growing in Dorne.

I believed that lemons represent innocence and naivety, like peaches represent luxury.

Dany seeing a lemon tree outside a house with a red door could represent her innocent childhood which she yearns for.

But the 'lemon tree' could have something to do with Dorne. Maybe, Dorne was interested in the upbringing of the exiled Targ children. Or maybe, they were hidden in Dorne or Starfall for a while.

[7V3N]

I don't think the lemon tree and the red door are a continuity error like the 'hips of Jeyne Westerling'. Like OP pointed out that there are no lemon trees in Braavos. I think this is a huge clue as to Dany's true origins.

Any house could have a red door. But in Storm of Swords, there are multiple mentions of lemon trees growing in Dorne.

Actually, there is only one reference in ASOS, being the one mentioned at the inn. Certainly not "multiple mentions." (ETA) Scratch that. It turns out my exclusive search for "lemon tree" doesn't include "lemon trees."

We also know Dany was definitely in Braavos at some point, because Willem Darry signed the marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne there, witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos. Also, given how Willem Darry smuggled the children from Dragonstone, Braavos makes more sense to go to (geographically and politically--remember: Robert was just receiving the baby-corpses of Aegon and Rhaenys). Dany also doesn't remember any moment of her childhood without Viserys. If she was in Dorne and he was in Braavos she would have some memory of being away from Vis for a long period of time, as well as her only protector Willem Darry.

GRRM first saying Dany's house at Braavos with the red door and lemon trees, then much later defining the climate of Braavos is exactly what a continuity error would be. Saying "there are no lemon trees in Braavos" actually supports the idea of it being a continuity error rather than discredits it. Or it could simply be that, as mentioned before, the house was owned by someone rich (someone who had an interest in the dragon king bloodline, and wanted to ensure it lived on) who could afford to have a special garden.

Now, if we read about the lemon tree supposedly in Braavos in TWOW, then we can say this theory is likely true. As of now, it's simply a theory that is as strong as the pregnant Jeyne theories (which, of course, turned out to be a mistake by GRRM). I am not saying it is impossible, but certainly not more likely than GRRM making an early mistake as he was making his world. After all, he referred to himself as a "gardener" where as Tolkien was an "architect."

There are some writers who are architects, and they plan everything, they blueprint everything, and they know before the drive the first nail into the first board what the house is going to look like and where all the closets are going to be, where the plumbing is going to run, and everything is figured out on the blueprints before they actually begin any work whatsoever. And then there are gardeners who dig a little hole and drop a seed in and water it with their blood and see what comes up, and sort of shape it. They sort of know what seed they've planted — whether it's an oak or an elm, or a horror story or a science fiction story, but they don't how big it's going to be, or what shape it's going to take. I am much more a gardener than an architect.

As I said, it is a good catch and there could be something behind it. But in no way can you tell me that this has no chance of being a continuity error.

[profilebegone]

FWIW, there are lemon trees somewhere else:

Afterward her lord husband led his guests onto the lower terrace, so the visitors from the Yellow City might behold Meereen by night. Wine cups in hand, the Yunkai'i wandered the garden in small groups, beneath lemon trees and night-blooming flowers, and Dany found herself face-to-face with Brown Ben Plumm.

I have no idea if that means anything.

[Red Raven]

"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty."

Sounds like the house with the red door belonged to someone important.

Winterfell has "glass gardens." It wouldn't be a stretch for a rich Braavosi to have a greenhouse with lemon trees or have some other means of growing tropical fruit that far north.

That said, it would be fun if the key to understanding her memory wasn't the red door but the lemon tree.

[FC_Lymond]

Little adds up about Dany

I am new here, have you guys discussed how she lives atop a 800 foot pyramid in Meereen? That's the same height as the Empire State building. Walking that every day without an elevator would be virtually impossible.

[Battle Kitten]

Lemon trees can grow in pots. Pots can be brought indoors when it is cold. I don't think it is impossible that a lemon tree was there.

[Roadside Rose]

FWIW, there are lemon trees somewhere else:

Nice catch!

[MRHD]

Little adds up about Dany

I am new here, have you guys discussed how she lives atop a 800 foot pyramid in Meereen? That's the same height as the Empire State building. Walking that every day without an elevator would be virtually impossible.

Probably an error on the part of GRRM not considering how tall that really was. For reference, the Great Pyramid of Giza is about 450 feet tall.

[Roadside Rose]

Little adds up about Dany

I am new here, have you guys discussed how she lives atop a 800 foot pyramid in Meereen? That's the same height as the Empire State building. Walking that every day without an elevator would be virtually impossible.

She probably flies up and down the pyramid on her dragons.

With Dany anything is possible.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

In a world with dragons and ice monsters, I don't understand why you think its impossible that one dude might have one lemon tree in Braavos. These books are so over-armchair-analyzed.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Little adds up about Dany

I am new here, have you guys discussed how she lives atop a 800 foot pyramid in Meereen? That's the same height as the Empire State building. Walking that every day without an elevator would be virtually impossible.

Who says she walks it every day? People come to see her, not the other way around. Who says there's not an elevator? The Wall has one. Why not Meereen's pyramid?

[Hound Dog]

Huh. That's odd.

ETA: Regarding your theory, if Dany has never seen a lemon tree, how can she picture it? Or has she seen one?

Just what I was going to say. :)

OP:

This is very interesting. I wonder if you have something here (very clever observation, by the way! Braavos!), and that it simply isn't just an oversight by GRRM. Hmm. But it very well could be. I for one had not thought anything of it. Obviously you are a much more astute reader than I am. For all the effort he put into researching everything else about Medieval society, it would be odd should he have overlooked this [now obvious] logic.... but not at all impossible.

[Isalie]

Wonderful catch. It very well may be a slip up by GRRM, but I like the armchair psychologist angle of a fabricated lemon tree representing the innocence she was robbed of. In fact, since it's in the book, I'd say that that is a valid conclusion, regardless of if GRRM intended that way or not.

[Sun]

Dany is an unreliable narrator. The fact that until ADWD she has been our only POV into her arc is not an accident. The fact that our view of her begins to change once other POVs are introduced into her sphere is logical. She is an unreliable narrator and always has been. Everything we take from Dany's POV should be seasoned with a healthy dose of sea salt. Nothing she says or thinks should be taken at face value.

[profilebegone]

Probably an error on the part of GRRM not considering how tall that really was. For reference, the Great Pyramid of Giza is about 450 feet tall.

Meh. It's a fantasy novel. The Wall is 700 feet tall. Gregor Clegane is 8 feet tall (not impossible, just absurdly unlikely - that's 10.6 standard deviations from the current mean height for an American male, in a time with a lot more nutrition and several orders of magnitude more people). Don't sweat it.

[7V3N]

Meh. It's a fantasy novel. The Wall is 700 feet tall. Gregor Clegane is 8 feet tall (not impossible, just absurdly unlikely - that's 10.6 standard deviations from the current mean height for an American male, in a time with a lot more nutrition and several orders of magnitude more people). Don't sweat it.

True, but GRRM has said he wishes he made the Wall shorter. 700 feet tall is a bit too much.

The Cleganes are said to be an incredibly large family (given both Sandor and Gregor are huge), and given that they are not commonfolk (though strategic marriages were practiced to a lesser degree among peasants)--the House stemmed from a kennel master--they have likely had some degree of selection in their reproduction (meaning, they choose spouses that are larger to keep the size within the family). In modern America, there has been an incredible amount of mixing among people of different sizes, races, etc. because people are far less superficial than back in medieval times. Therefore, Americans are much closer to the mean and will continue to get closer to it.