R+L=J v.51

[finger]

I agree with this. So the theory proposed by Finger, that Aegon was at the TOJ and that was why Hightower was there, to protect him, sounds strange: if Rhaegar ordered him to guard Aegon why Rhaenys was not rescued too?

Off topic: if Aegon was indeed switched with other baby, how come Rhaenys never said it to anyone? Would she be mature enough to understand she could not tell anyone that baby was not her brother?

Difficulties to conect these days.

It's not exactly a theory, but a tentative answer for a problem that's arisen.

The problem: Hightower was the LC of the KG. Aerys could have ordered him to find and fetch Rhaegar, but then, he had no choice but coming back to KL with him. Hightower was no courier, so he had not been sent to deliver a message. The "official" version doesn't work.

An alternative: Aerys somehow could communicate with Rhaegar. R conditioned his coming back to KL to have Aegon at ToJ. Hightower took Aegon there and stayed with him. He was the person Aerys and Rhaegar could trust, and guarding the second person in the line of succession is a task for the LC, not delivering a message.

Then, you ask new questions, and try to find any flaw. I like it, it's the way to validate a possible story.

Why should Rhaegar call for Aegon? That's a good point. R might mistrust Aerys. R might think that if he died, Aerys would kill his children in order to make Viserys his heir.

What makes me think about it? Varys said Aegon was spared in the sack of KL. He knows how to lie, and he also knows that someone willing to search for clues, will come across some. I guess he knows Clegane didn't find Aegon, and that's why he dares to produce a fake Aegon.

Why do I think that Aegon was spared? Tywin was very interested in showing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. Clegane had to be a goddamn fool to smash real Aegon's face, making him unrecognizable, just for fun. Clegane of course didn't find Aegon, and killed a fake boy (not so difficult in a big city suffering a sack). My guess is Aegon wasn't at KL by then.

Why didn't Rhaenys tell? She was a little girl, she told what she knew, but she knew very little. "Where is your brother?" "I don't know, it's long time no see. I think he's with my dad."

A possibility. Clegane found Rhaenys and Elia in Elia's room. Clegane asked Rhaenys and tortured Elia, but he couldn't find Aegon. Eventualy, he killed both and put a disfigured boy in the place of Aegon.

When and how was Aegon taken out? If Hightower took him to ToJ, his behaviour makes sense. Also when Ned arrived: the king was there, king Aegon, and the KG wouldn't hand their king to the rebels.

You're wellcome to look for flaws.

[finger]

Agreed, especially on the MS concept.

Fantasy and SciFi are not just a boys club anymore, and that genre's demographics now includes a lot of women, so I think the diversity and treatment of certain concepts reflect that.

When I was a little girl, I read comics when it wasn't even popular for guys to read them, so I've eagerly watched the evolution of this genre.

:eek: But, how old are you, 70, 80? I wouldn't be tactless; you don't have to answer if you don't feel like that.

[SaltyDornish]

Just a bit of supporting evidence for R+L=J, not sure if it's been mentioned before but search is currently down.

The books states that Benjen Stark was close with his sister, Lyanna. They grew up together - at the end of DotD, Bran has a vision of them playing in the Winterfell Godswood.

Putting those two together means that Benjen was probably the only one in the family, who might' ve known that Lyanna wasn't abducted, but went with Rhaegar willingly to the ToJ. Perhaps he didn't mention this information to his father because he had promised Lyanna not to tell anyone. :dunno:

In any case, he then probably felt guilty over what happened to Brandon & Rickard and decided to drown that guilt by joining the Night's Watch- it isn't mentioned why he joined the night's watch, but this theory seems the most plausible if the R+L=J theory is taken into account.

Thoughts? :unsure:

I'm new here so play nice.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Welcome to the forum!

It is something that has indeed been considered, but it's great to see someone who's new think of it! :)

Benjen joining the Watch was always so odd to me, especially since that left 1 Stark male for Winterfell. I know he supposedly heard a Brother talk at Harrenhall and then he wanted to join, but that's not enough for me.

[finger]

I'm sorry but IMO this just doesn't work. You would need to also offer a compelling explanation of where Aegon is now, or evidence of Rhaegar and Elia being involved in a complicated plot with Varys and Illyrio. Reasons why, how, etc.

The much more simple and elegant explanation of course is the one you see argued here every day, every single time the presence of the KG at ToJ is mentioned.

As far as that goes- see Frozen Fire's excellent Latin remarks above. Especially the final.

You ask questions, so I answer them, no problem.

Where is Aegon now? Hidden, as Jon is. I guess Ashara took him to the free cities and any trail of them is but lost.

Who says Rhaegar and Elia were involve with Varys and Illyrio? Not me, why shoud they? This has nothing to do with making Aegon disappear.

I'll tell you how the "elegant" official version goes.

Hightower was commanded by Aerys to find and fetch Rhaegar and hand him a message.

"Have you read the message? We're back to KL,"

"No way, I go by myself, you stay here. I command you."

"Fine, as you please, bugger you lord father."

Is this elegant or nuts? I've read reasonings trying to justify it, and IMO they only make things worse. I have to tell that the most usual intervention includes very few reasoning, it's rather "I'm telling this because I'm worth it."

[finger]

I love this passage because it is so revealing. The associations are the key.

First and most importantly, as you show with these quotes, is the internal process that led his thoughts from Lyanna to Jon to Rhaegar. When Ned thinks of the promises he made to Lyanna, he is making promises to a young girl about her infant child.

It is immediately after he swears to protect the child that his thoughts then turn to Jon Snow. It is his own agony that he has not been able to fully keep his promise. Jon is treated as a bastard, frowned on by the gods and more importantly, his own wife. Not exactly what one would wish for your sister's legitimate child that you promised (for example) to treat as if your own.

Finally, the thought of Rhaegar. I think it came up earlier in this thread that this was certainly not the "first time in years" Ned has thought of Rhaegar. There are something like ten mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's POV prior to this. What it is (at least in relation to those earlier POV thoughts) is the first time he has thought of Rhaegar as Jon's father. He contrasts Rhaegar with Robert and his friend comes up wanting. This continues the theme of Ned's mounting disillusionment with Robert as King. Further, it reinforces Ned's complete lack of negative thoughts about Rhaegar, which has been noted many times as evidence of a willing relationship between R+L. IMO Ned's tacit, internal acceptance also offers further proof a legal and "honorable" relationship (marriage)

Excuse me, but I read this secuence: Lyanna-Jon-bastard-Rhaegar, i.e. Jon is the bastard of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Meanwhile, Jon takes after Ned more than any of his sons. The whole situation angers Ned.

Lastly, Rhaegar probably was not a whore man but he did like women, and the quote leaves guessing he slipped sometimes.

Sorry for theirs supporters, but Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship wasn't more legal or honourable than Gwinhyfar-Lancelot.

[finger]

Just a bit of supporting evidence for R+L=J, not sure if it's been mentioned before but search is currently down.

The books states that Benjen Stark was close with his sister, Lyanna. They grew up together - at the end of DotD, Bran has a vision of them playing in the Winterfell Godswood.

Putting those two together means that Benjen was probably the only one in the family, who might' ve known that Lyanna wasn't abducted, but went with Rhaegar willingly to the ToJ. Perhaps he didn't mention this information to his father because he had promised Lyanna not to tell anyone. :dunno:

In any case, he then probably felt guilty over what happened to Brandon & Rickard and decided to drown that guilt by joining the Night's Watch- it isn't mentioned why he joined the night's watch, but this theory seems the most plausible if the R+L=J theory is taken into account.

Thoughts? :unsure:

I'm new here so play nice.

Actualy I think the seven kingdoms knew, but Brandon, Robert, and some other sots hear and there, or some people who didn't care.

Why did Hoster Tully refer to Brandon as "gallant fool"? I guess he added galant to soften the clause.

I'm also missing a reason for Benjen to join the NW

[Alia of the knife]

Brilliant :)

Well, I wish I could take credit, but several others beat me to it :laugh:

This is the sort of (brilliant) post that makes me regret not owning a digital version of Asoiaf...

A circular cosmogony. I love the way your mind works ;)

As for Jon potentially being Lightbringer, it fits with Rhaegar being TPtwP and Lyanna his Nissa Nissa, 'pierced' in agony and ecstasy and sacrificed to bring about Lightbringer (I'm the sword in the darkness).

Tangential mind reading :) During my ASoS re-reading, I came across the following passage. It's Maester Aemon talking:

He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I.

Old wise Maester Aemon Targaryen sees promise in him... The Prince that was Promised. Promise me, Ned.

Agree with Maxpey, great catch AS ALWAYS, but I expect that from you. :bowdown:

Also, if I might be so bold and suggest some really great "old soul" music for relaxing - "Nox Arcana."

Some of their things are a little over the top, but love CD's "Winters Eve," and of course. "Blood of the Dragon."

[SaltyDornish]

Actualy I think the seven kingdoms knew, but Brandon, Robert, and some other sots hear and there, or some people who didn't care.

Why did Hoster Tully refer to Brandon as "gallant fool"? I guess he added galant to soften the clause.

I'm also missing a reason for Benjen to join the NW

Why Benjen joined the NW is one of the unanswered questions that annoys me more than the others because I think it will be of great significance, been looking for information about it and theories on it. Here are a few, I'm not saying there right or that I agree with them, just putting them out there.

1) Benjen + Lyanna = Jon,as a consequence of incest- Benjen sent to the wall (Highly doubt this theory due to plot holes and him being Stark not Lannister)

2) 3rd Son, unlikely to inherit, Brandon+Lyanna favoured children, Ned sent to the Vale, Benjen more or less ignored, joins NW for honour.

3) There is always a Stark at the Wall.

4) The theory I already mentioned.

5)- Not my theory, c+p'ed from another thread

'Instead of Benjen joining out of guilt, he joins because of a rift in the Stark family over Lyanna. All the Starks know Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar and that she wasn't kidnapped. Notice that when Brandon goes to King's Landing he calls for Rhaegar to "come out and die" - he says nothing of "releasing" Lyanna from captivity. Brandon, Ned, and Benjen were all at Harrenhal and I've got to believe a report of the romance between Lyanna and Rhaegar reaches Lord Rickard - the story of the roses and Lyanna's being crowned queen of love and beauty had to reach him. After this we have the announcement of the betrothal in Winterfell and Lyanna expressing her reservations about Robert and his character. I think Lyanna let it be known she didn't want to wed Robert, but it was her duty to do so once the Stark word had been pledged. After she runs off with Rhaegar, it is because the Stark's honor bound word is not respected by both Lyanna and Rhaegar that Brandon, and I think Rickard as well, are angered and do what they do. Not because they think Lyanna was kidnapped.

Ned's best friend was Robert and he felt strongly about the duty one has to marry according to the needs of the family, upholding its honour, and keeping its word. He shows this in his own life through marrying Catelyn instead of Ashara. But Benjen is a wild card. We have no indication what his thoughts about his sister's action were. He may have thought forcing his sister to marry Robert when he knew she loved Rhaegar was wrong and he let it be known. He carries out his own family duty when he stays in Winterfell while his father, brothers, and sister go south to the wedding and later during the war that follows, but he believed his father and brothers were wrong in their actions toward Lyanna. After the war, with Lyanna's tragic death at its end, he decides he wants out, and even though he can't quite blame Ned for Lyanna's death, he no longer has a family duty that compels him to stay in Winterfell and be reminded of the hurtful events. so he joins the Night's Watch were all familial bonds are broken :bowdown: Personally, that's what I'm hoping for!

In addition, GGRM refused to answer a question about why Benjen/Benjin took the black, and in a recent interview he confirmed that there will be backstory information on Benjin in tWoW :eek: Sorry this went off topic of R+L=J a little, but it is still vaguely related :drunk:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well, I admit people can get snarky sometimes over here. However, that's usually towards people who have earned the snark, so to speak - those who visit the thread for months without getting any wiser, throwing out the same old rehashed pseudo-counterarguments again and again. Newbies are usually treated kindly, IMO - even if, sometimes, passionately.

:agree:

Snarkiness (that I've witnessed) is generally earned. Newbies for the most part are treated fairly & welcomed.

@Jon Icefyre- yes! I've said many times here and elsewhere- RLJ might add a Targ element to Jon but he's still as much a Stark as if he were Ned's son!

[LadyMary]

I think guilt is a very good deeper reason for Benjen to join the Watch. Besides convenient excuses such as being a third son and after Brandon's death and Robb's birth, pretty far out of the line of succession or so it may have seemed... what if Benjen blames himself for helping Lyanna run away with Rhaegar which in turn led to the murders on his father and oldest brother and indirectly, to the death of his sister? He may have exiled himself because he felt responsible for causing, or at least participating in the events that caused the near destruction of his House.

[ogarrr]

I personally have the view that while R + L = J is certainly true and there is a tonne of evidence behind it, I kind of don't want it to be. I'd rather he be the bastard that every Westerosi thinks he is because being a bastard is what Jon Snow is all about, hell it's in his bloody name!

Even with irrefutable evidence I'd rather it be the case that he is in fact that bastard son of Eddard and some serving wench, after all years on campaign would make a man crave female attention and Eddard is only a man.

I also don't like the "long lost prince" story line.

Ah well, it's still true and he is of course the son of Rhagar and Lyanna and I will most likely be satisfied and happy with the way Martin delivers it. In fact i probably won't be complaining after the reveal because I trust Martin to write it well.

[Alia of the knife]

I think guilt is a very good deeper reason for Benjen to join the Watch. Besides convenient excuses such as being a third son and after Brandon's death and Robb's birth, pretty far out of the line of succession or so it may have seemed... what if Benjen blames himself for helping Lyanna run away with Rhaegar which in turn led to the murders on his father and oldest brother and indirectly, to the death of his sister? He may have exiled himself because he felt responsible for causing, or at least participating in the events that caused the near destruction of his House.

And it occurs to me the parallels between Benjen and Ashara, (I believe Ashara tipped Ned off on the location of the TOJ), in that they both were caught up in wanting to do the right thing, but may have blamed themselves for the loss of their siblings.

[Ygrain]

Difficulties to conect these days.

It's not exactly a theory, but a tentative answer for a problem that's arisen.

The problem: Hightower was the LC of the KG. Aerys could have ordered him to find and fetch Rhaegar, but then, he had no choice but coming back to KL with him. Hightower was no courier, so he had not been sent to deliver a message. The "official" version doesn't work.

An alternative: Aerys somehow could communicate with Rhaegar. R conditioned his coming back to KL to have Aegon at ToJ. Hightower took Aegon there and stayed with him. He was the person Aerys and Rhaegar could trust, and guarding the second person in the line of succession is a task for the LC, not delivering a message.

Then, you ask new questions, and try to find any flaw. I like it, it's the way to validate a possible story.

Why should Rhaegar called for Aegon? That's a good point. R might mistrust Aery. R might think that if he died, Aerys would kill his children in order to make Viserys his heir.

What makes me think about it? Varys said Aegon was spared in the sack of KL. He knows haw to lie, and he also knows that someone willing to search for clues, will come across some. I guess he knows Clegane didn't find Aegon, and that's why he dares to produce a feke Aegon.

Why do I think that Aegon was spared? Tywin was very interested in showing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. Clegane had to be a goddamn fool to smash real Aegon's face, making him unrecognizable, just for fun. Clegane of course didn't find Aegon, and killed a fake boy (not so difficult in a big city suffering a sack). My guess is Aegon wasn't at KL by then.

Why didn't Rhaenys tell? She was a little girl, she told what she knew, but she knew very little. "Where is your brother?" "I don't know, it's long time no see. I think he's with my dad."

A possibility. Clegane found Rhaenys and Elia in Elia's room. Clegane asked Rhaenys and tortured Elia, but he couldn't find Aegon. Evebtually, he killed both and put a disfigured in the place of Aegon.

When and how was Aegon taken out? If Hightower took him to ToJ, his behaviour makes sense. Also when Ned arrived: the king was there, king Aegon, and the KG wouldn't hand their king to the rebels.

You're wellcome to look for flaws.

Clegane didn't kill Rhaenys, Lorch did, in Rhaegar's bedroom.

If the switch had taken place so early, there would have had to be more people on it - the servants who take care of him in the first place, because I doubt that Elia was changing nappies herself. Did they all die, didn't anyone leak the secret?

Plus, how old is Aegon? That was after the Battle of Bells - not sure how late this was into the Rebellion but at least 6 months, perhaps closer to 8-9 or more already? There is no way you can switch a baby this old without people who know him well noticing, and also without the baby noticing. A kid this old knows who his people are.

Concerning that Hightower is not a courier, this is an absolutely moot point. Hightower will do what Aerys orders him to, and if Rhaegar wanted to negotiate the terms of his return to KL, Hightower is a logical choice as he would have been trusted both by Rhaegar and Aerys. Furthermore, if legitimizing Rhaegar's offspring with Lyanna (pregnant at that time already) and/or acknowledging their marriage as valid was a part of the deal, then it would be a document you wouldn't entrust to a common courier. Also, Hightower wouldn't have had to return to KL necessarily - in the absence of direct orders from Aerys to return, Rhaegar could have commanded him to stay. There were still Selmy, Darry, Martell and Jaime at this point to do the KG duty.

Excuse me, but I read this secuence: Lyanna-Jon-bastard-Rhaegar, i.e. Jon is the bastard of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Meanwhile, Jon takes after Ned more than any of his sons. The whole situation angers Ned.

Lastly, Rhaegar probably was not a whore man but he did like women, and the quote leaves guessing he slipped sometimes.

Sorry for theirs supporters, but Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship wasn't more legal or honourable than Gwinhyfar-Lancelot.

The quote - if you mean the one about not frequenting brothels - shows none of the kind.

[FittleLinger]

This is the sort of (brilliant) post that makes me regret not owning a digital version of Asoiaf...

Thanks so much, this is a high praise coming from you. Although of course it might be nothing...

I regret not having them too, what would anyone suggest me do? It's about searching the phrase "for all the north to see" or "for all the .... to see" and seeing how many times and in what context it comes. It doesn't seem like deserving a thread, and it doesn't seem like a small question either?

[LadyMary]

And it occurs to me the parallels between Benjen and Ashara, (I believe Ashara tipped Ned off on the location of the TOJ), in that they both were caught up in wanting to do the right thing, but may have blamed themselves for the loss of their siblings.

That's an intriguing possibility. Ashara might not have believed the honorable Ned would kill Arthur or that Arthur would refuse to let Ned see his sister, but Arthur took his vow seriously and Ned wanted to bring Lyanna home. No good deed goes unpunished in Westeros.

[Maxpey]

Ya but that doesn't make sense at all because it's not like a baseball player can be playing for the Red Sox and Yankees at the same time, while OTOH in GOT you can be on the same side of both your parent's houses aka Robb Stark getting support from North and house Tully/the Riverlands. So a sports analogy doesn't really work at all in this situation, because while it's impossible for a baseball player to play for two teams at the same time, Jon having a Targ father and a Stark mother, would mean that he has both Targ and Stark blood. It's literally as simple as that....So to say that you have to choose sides on the matter is a bit ridiculous.

I agree with you. I just think that's how some people see it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thanks so much, this is a high praise coming from you. Although of course it might be nothing...

I regret not having them too, what would anyone suggest me do? It's about searching the phrase "for all the north to see" or "for all the .... to see" and seeing how many times and in what context it comes. It doesn't seem like deserving a thread, and it doesn't seem like a small question either?

I have digital versions but was having an issue with my search function this morning. I did get it to locate the one in AGoT that you referenced, so once I work out my bug I should be able to find any others.

I will pm you if I find anything interesting!

[FittleLinger]

I have digital versions but was having an issue with my search function this morning. I did get it to locate the one in AGoT that you referenced, so once I work out my bug I should be able to find any others.

I will pm you if I find anything interesting!

Thanks a bunch!

[Alia of the knife]

:eek: But, how old are you, 70, 80? I wouldn't be tactless; you don't have to answer if you don't feel like that.

Adam Ant was my first pop culture crush, Joan Jett was my idol. "The Safety Dance" was all the rage and then later along came "Nirvana" and Kurt Cobain, if that tells you anything. :smug:

No, in my world, reading comic books was not something that you did. You aspired to be a cheerleader, or you were a football player, and not that they were mean to you but that's how it was, but THAT time was around the time you started seeing an evolution in female portrayals beyond Wonder Woman and Bat Girl.