R+L=J v.51

[lyanna wolfgirl]

At the time when Viserys and Rhaella were sent to Dragonstone, there was only one KG available (Jaime). Whent, Dayne and Hightower were stationed at Tower of Joy, Darry and Martell were killed at the Trident and Selmy was wounded and captured.

Plus, the protection of the KG doesn't automatically extend to any member of the royal family, their first duty is only with the king.

The new thread is usually started by the admin who locks the old thread. If this doesn't happen, then it's started by one of the regulars who last participated in the old thread. Hence the continuity.

got it. thanks! you guys are good :)

[Ygrain]

got it. thanks! you guys are good :)

You're welcome :-) We're generally a nice bunch, unless someone tosses in Jon's burnt hand or claims that the KG at ToJ were honouring something else than their first duty :P

[lyanna wolfgirl]

OMG JON BURNED HIS HAND HE CAN'T BE A DRAGON CUZ FIRE CANT KILL THE DRAGON!

:devil:

i was first on the boards back in 2003, moved my profile over here from the ezboard, and i remember all those jon's hand posts all too well.

[Jon Snow: What a bastard]

O

[Jon Snow: What a bastard]

Ok i'm new to this forum and forgive me if this has already been said but there was a single quote from Ned in AGOT that made me hesitant about R=L+J. I can't exactly remember where he said this but i think it was after he'd met Gendry. Ned mutters something in his internal monologue like curse the gods for giving us these urges to make bastards or something along those lines. The fact that he says US implies to me that he's made a terrible mistake of his own due to these urges. Why would Ned say such a thing unless Jon is actually his? Bear in mind that i actually believe R+L= J but just wanted to lay down a counter argument. If anybody could find the exact quote for me it would be appreciated.

[Ygrain]

O

And the prize for the most eloquent post goes to... :P

[Dr. Pepper]

Ok i'm new to this forum and forgive me if this has already been said but there was a single quote from Ned in AGOT that made me hesitant about R=L+J. I can't exactly remember where he said this but i think it was after he'd met Gendry. Ned mutters something in his internal monologue like curse the gods for giving us these urges to make bastards or something along those lines. The fact that he says US implies to me that he's made a terrible mistake of his own due to these urges. Why would Ned say such a thing unless Jon is actually his? Bear in mind that i actually believe R+L= J but just wanted to lay down a counter argument. If anybody could find the exact quote for me it would be appreciated.

I don't think he thought that when he was visiting Gendry. There's a somewhat similar line when he goes to see Barra.

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I can not recall any quote where Ned uses 'us' when he thinks about bastards and lusts.

[Jon Snow: What a bastard]

And the prize for the most eloquent post goes to... :P

Lol accidentally hit enter on my keyboard way too early :P

[Jon Snow: What a bastard]

I don't think he thought that when he was visiting Gendry. There's a somewhat similar line when he goes to see Barra.

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I can not recall any quote where Ned uses 'us' when he thinks about bastards and lusts.

Yeah that's the quote i was thinking of, for some reason i thought he said us but whatever. Still it's interesting that he said it

[FrozenFire3]

I don't think he thought that when he was visiting Gendry. There's a somewhat similar line when he goes to see Barra.

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I can not recall any quote where Ned uses 'us' when he thinks about bastards and lusts.

Yeah that's the quote i was thinking of, for some reason i thought he said us but whatever. Still it's interesting that he said it

Yes, that's the one and it refers to Jon's condition as a bastard. After all he grew up as such. BUT if you read the whole passage, you'll find a very interesting 'fil rouge' connecting Lyanna, Jon and Rhaegar.

GoT, Eddard IX. Brothel's scene. I'll paste the relevant quotes and highlight some words that could help you follow Ned's thought sequence:

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood, and relentless as old guilts.

[...]

He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna a she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

[...]

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

[...]

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And the prize for the most eloquent post goes to... :P

They was just as astounded as me when hearing that that burned hand discussion had been going on for 10 years already.

If there's one good thing about getting into GoT late, that's a strong candidate. :D

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, that's the one and it refers to Jon's condition as a bastard. After all he grew up as such. BUT if you read the whole passage, you'll find a very interesting 'fil rouge' connecting Lyanna, Jon and Rhaegar.

GoT, Eddard IX. Brothel's scene. I'll paste the relevant quotes and highlight some words that could help you follow Ned's thought sequence:

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood, and relentless as old guilts.

[...]

He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna a she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

[...]

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

[...]

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

I love this passage because it is so revealing. The associations are the key.

First and most importantly, as you show with these quotes, is the internal process that led his thoughts from Lyanna to Jon to Rhaegar. When Ned thinks of the promises he made to Lyanna, he is making promises to a young girl about her infant child.

It is immediately after he swears to protect the child that his thoughts then turn to Jon Snow. It is his own agony that he has not been able to fully keep his promise. Jon is treated as a bastard, frowned on by the gods and more importantly, his own wife. Not exactly what one would wish for your sister's legitimate child that you promised (for example) to treat as if your own.

Finally, the thought of Rhaegar. I think it came up earlier in this thread that this was certainly not the "first time in years" Ned has thought of Rhaegar. There are something like ten mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's POV prior to this. What it is (at least in relation to those earlier POV thoughts) is the first time he has thought of Rhaegar as Jon's father. He contrasts Rhaegar with Robert and his friend comes up wanting. This continues the theme of Ned's mounting disillusionment with Robert as King. Further, it reinforces Ned's complete lack of negative thoughts about Rhaegar, which has been noted many times as evidence of a willing relationship between R+L. IMO Ned's tacit, internal acceptance also offers further proof a legal and "honorable" relationship (marriage)

[Queen Nymeria Martell]

Once Aegon was born Rhaegar realized that his son had an older sister in Rhaegar's firstborn similar to Aegon l which is why (along with a few other reasons) Rhaegar began to believe that his son would be TPTWP and decided to name him Aegon therefore completing two heads of the dragon. And although Rhaegar made the mistake of naming his firstborn Rhaenys instead of Visenya for Rhaegar the parallels were still there. Like Aegon l, Rhaegar's son Aegon also had an older sister, so now in Rhaegar's mind all he needed to complete the three headed dragon was to give his son a younger sister in order to make his son the middle child like Aegon l was the middle child, which is why after Elia gave birth to Aegon, Rhaegar says,"The dragon has three heads there must be one more." IMO this is Rhaegar clearly saying that he needs one more daughter in order to form the three-headed dragon, and he would have named that daughter Visenya in order to make up for the mistake of giving his firstborn daughter the name Rhaenys and it would also at the same time make sure all three of his children had the names of the three original members of the three headed dragon in which the Targ house sigil represents.

Thank you, yes, I understand all this, but to me, Dany's vision was too "clear", and Maester Aemon also confirmed about Aegon's birth and the comet - the "bleeding star". Of course they were wrong, and at this time in the book we are supposed to believe that Dany, who has no siblings anymore, is the PWWP. Maybe all of them were wrong and this prophecy was just a way to produce Jon, or to begin the Game of Thrones, that would hide the Others waking up. If not for Robert's death, Jon Arryn and the King's bastards and Lysa, more people would be paying attention to what is happening on the north of Wall.

All is well, but I feel sorry a little bit for Jon if Rhaegar only wanted another child, like some people believe, even if at the end he was truly in love with Lyanna. And worse, Jon was expected to be a girl :huh: I imagine Rhaegar, if he had won the battle, coming back and scratching his head thinking that now he had two sons and one daughter. It sounds too fanatical to me (sorry if the word is wrong, as I wrote, my English is awful).

Some think Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna because he needed another child to fulfill a prophecy. I would prefer them to be together for another reason. Would the knowledge of all this change Jon? In what way? So he was not happy with being a bastard, but he loved his father, then he founds out his father is his uncle and his real father wanted a girl to ride a dragon :o I would not feel better if I were him.

[FrozenFire3]

I love this passage because it is so revealing. The associations are the key.

First and most importantly, as you show with these quotes, is the internal process that led his thoughts from Lyanna to Jon to Rhaegar. When Ned thinks of the promises he made to Lyanna, he is making promises to a young girl about her infant child.

It is immediately after he swears to protect the child that his thoughts then turn to Jon Snow. It is his own agony that he has not been able to fully keep his promise. Jon is treated as a bastard, frowned on by the gods and more importantly, his own wife. Not exactly what one would wish for your sister's legitimate child that you promised (for example) to treat as if your own.

Finally, the thought of Rhaegar. I think it came up earlier in this thread that this was certainly not the "first time in years" Ned has thought of Rhaegar. There are something like ten mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's POV prior to this. What it is (at least in relation to those earlier POV thoughts) is the first time he has thought of Rhaegar as Jon's father. He contrasts Rhaegar with Robert and his friend comes up wanting. This continues the theme of Ned's mounting disillusionment with Robert as King. Further, it reinforces Ned's complete lack of negative thoughts about Rhaegar, which has been noted many times as evidence of a willing relationship between R+L. IMO Ned's tacit, internal acceptance also offers further proof a legal and "honorable" relationship (marriage)

Perfection :bowdown:

[WhiteOwl18]

Some think Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna because he needed another child to fulfill a prophecy. I would prefer them to be together for another reason.

One doesn't exclude the other. It's possible that he wanted to fulfill the prophecy and was in love with Lyanna at the same time. It would be a perfect "kill two birds with one stone" scenario.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Perfection :bowdown:

:cheers:

That means a lot coming from you!

Now, a quick random thought inspired by the PtwP discussion above. We know prophecy to be a tricky minx. Has anyone ever thought that perhaps the "bleeding star" might be a person? I'm thinking of Ser Arthur Dayne of Starfall, bleeding in the sand as he died doing his (however misguided) duty protecting his young Prince...

[FittleLinger]

:cheers:

That means a lot coming from you!

Now, a quick random thought inspired by the PtwP discussion above. We know prophecy to be a tricky minx. Has anyone ever thought that perhaps the "bleeding star" might be a person? I'm thinking of Ser Arthur Dayne of Starfall, bleeding in the sand as he died doing his (however misguided) duty protecting his young Prince...

Either that, or the sword Dawn itself - it is made of a fallen star and was covered / dripping in blood after the battle.

I really think it's not the comet, though. Even Aemon mentions the bleeding star as the comet in the lines of "we thought that way, what fools were we". Now, he might not be right about Dany and the female prince, but I think he is right the bleeding star is not the comet.

Also it fits well with another belief of mine - that Lightbringer is not a literal sword, but something bigger/more global if you will. And at the same time - the bleeding star (which sounds like something big/global/majestic) is actually merely a sword.

[Akintosh]

Totally off the current discussion but are there any speculations/ theories concerning Jon's burned hand to further establish his Targaryen lineage?

(I have a wild speculation but hesitant to say because it contains crackpots XD)

[The guy from the Vale]

Totally off the current discussion but are there any speculations/ theories concerning Jon's burned hand to further establish his Targaryen lineage?

(I have a wild speculation but hesitant to say because it contains crackpots XD)

Targaryens are not fireproof. Rhaenyra Targaryen was killed and eaten by her brother's dragon. Aerion Brightflame drank too much wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan died in the inferno of Summerhall. Viserys was killed by molten gold. Dany herself has blisters that will most likely turn into burn scars after the pit incident with Drogo. Jon's burned hand just... means nothing in terms of him being a Targaryen. At all.

ETA: Go ahead and share your crackpot with us. We won't bite, as long as everyone is aware of the fact and doesn't try to argue the point in earnest. :)

[FittleLinger]

Agreed. Akintosh, a lot of... um... inexperienced posters have tried using the burn on the hand to disprove his Targ lineage, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone use it the other way round. It would be interesting to hear...