R+L=J v.51

[Alia of the knife]

Regarding the tensions between Rhaegar and Aerys, as well as the questions that have been raised, I do wonder why Rhaegar didn't send Elia and the children away on "holiday" before he left for the TOJ.

I don't think think it would have been, if played correctly, out of bounds to have sent them to visit her family in Dorne, or even to send them to Dragonstone to "relax."

The Aristocracy frequently traveled, particularly to the Country, so were they "nailed down" in KL?

[Ygrain]

Perhaps Elia took a long time to recover after the delivery and couldn't travel?

Plus, I don't think Rhaegar anticipated the whole shitstorm, so he probably didn't see the need to send her away.

[Alia of the knife]

Perhaps Elia took a long time to recover after the delivery and couldn't travel?

Plus, I don't think Rhaegar anticipated the whole shitstorm, so he probably didn't see the need to send her away.

Perhaps.

Maybe because it's in my nature to be a "Plan B" type of person, the various characters, Rhaegar, Ned, Robb, etc. who don't seem to anticipate things going awry, is sometimes frustrating.

I suppose honor is blind. :(

[Zupoleon]

Regarding the tensions between Rhaegar and Aerys, as well as the questions that have been raised, I do wonder why Rhaegar didn't send Elia and the children away on "holiday" before he left for the TOJ.

I don't think think it would have been, if played correctly, out of bounds to have sent them to visit her family in Dorne, or even to send them to Dragonstone to "relax."

The Aristocracy frequently traveled, particularly to the Country, so were they "nailed down" in KL?

I have to imagine that even Rhaegar would have known that Dorne would be pissed about the public slight to Elia (even if she was aware / cool with it). Therefore, sending her to Dorne would mean they would almost certainly lose Dorne's loyalty. My guess is that he kept her there hoping that once the dust settled, they would be able to iron things out with Dorne prior to them taking any extreme measures (ensured by Elia staying put)...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Adam Ant was my first pop culture crush, Joan Jett was my idol. "The Safety Dance" was all the rage and then later along came "Nirvana" and Kurt Cobain, if that tells you anything. :smug:

No, in my world, reading comic books was not something that you did. You aspired to be a cheerleader, or you were a football player, and not that they were mean to you but that's how it was, but THAT time was around the time you started seeing an evolution in female portrayals beyond Wonder Woman and Bat Girl.

I think you're exactly in my age group :)

I read comic books too. I used to own the first ever issue of The She-Hulk-- my fav!

Perhaps Elia took a long time to recover after the delivery and couldn't travel?

Plus, I don't think Rhaegar anticipated the whole shitstorm, so he probably didn't see the need to send her away.

Perhaps.

Maybe because it's in my nature to be a "Plan B" type of person, the various characters, Rhaegar, Ned, Robb, etc. who don't seem to anticipate things going awry, is sometimes frustrating.

I suppose honor is blind. :(

I think Ygrain is most likely correct in this. But I also share your frustration with "poor planning" Every time I reread I hope Ned will send the girls away from KL before he confronts Cersei. Sadly, he hasn't figured it out yet...

[finger]

So, you're saying that when Ned arrives that AEGON is present, and that is who the Kingsguard defend? Then WHY does Ned think that Aegon is dead, still?

It'd be a serious flaw. But I don't remember when Ned thinks that Aegon is dead.

He might even think Aegon is dead since he saw the corpses until Lyanna introduced him to the real Aegon.

I remind you that I'm searching for a reason for Hightower to stay at ToJ, and I'm probing the possibility that Aegon were the reason. It'd answer many questions, but flaws have to be cleared.

[finger]

And then Ned takes Aegon, renames him Jon, and makes him lose a year?

Odd theories are just odd. :)

I take it as a jape but I don't think anyone denies Jon (well, actually Daemon) was around. And Aegon was fair haired

You may think that Aegon died in KL, but if you don't think he did, he had to be somewhere. Hightower stayed at ToJ when he apparently shouldn't. Guarding the heir is a reason, indeed.

You can deny this possibility, much better if you find a real flaw. You'd have to find a reason for Hightower's behaviour, with less flaws that the alternative, desirably.

[A Crow Come Over]

This literally just dawned on me and i apologize if its been said 100 times, but in ASoS when we get Jaimes POV he starts thinking about how he's not sad that Joff died and he says "He was my seed but not my son"

This kinda mirrors Jon and Ned, Jon was not of Ned's seed but he was his son.

Just something I think GRRM throws in to say that just because you donated some sperm it doesnt make you a father.

[finger]

I know, it was a joke lol.

But you have to admit, it would be the most amusing shocker yet.

Yeah, if it were, Jon had no option but taking after both his mother and his father :laugh:

[finger]

This is the sort of (brilliant) post that makes me regret not owning a digital version of Asoiaf...

A circular cosmogony. I love the way your mind works ;)

As for Jon potentially being Lightbringer, it fits with Rhaegar being TPtwP and Lyanna his Nissa Nissa, 'pierced' in agony and ecstasy and sacrificed to bring about Lightbringer (I'm the sword in the darkness).

Tangential mind reading :) During my ASoS re-reading, I came across the following passage. It's Maester Aemon talking:

He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I.

Old wise Maester Aemon Targaryen sees promise in him... The Prince that was Promised. Promise me, Ned.

There's something that leaves me guessing. What should we expect from TPtwP? There's kind of a paralell with the stallion that mounts the world, but this one has a well defined task to accomplish.

What was the prince promised for? Rule the seven kingdoms, father a three headed dragon, defeat the Others, what?

[finger]

Thanks for the kind words, and the offer. :D

I think I should pass on the Ashara barbie, though.

People might get the wrong impression about me. :drool:

:lol: Never thought of myself as a weak-minded storm trooper.

Next thing you know GRRM will be telling me "These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along."

Mine! That one's for me! :lol:

[finger]

That's because for some people it's like rooting for both the Red Sox and the Yankees to win. It can't really be done.

Jon's either a Stark or a Targ, he can't really be both.

Unless it's TPtwP's task :dunno:

[finger]

You know, that's where I always start shaking my head. Of course Jon can be both. Not just that, but he is both. Rooting for one house above another just because is something I cannot understand. I can understand rooting for single characters, to some degree, but people supporting Team Stark, Team Targ or Team Lannister boggle my mind.

That's because we're taught that Starks are the good guys and Targs are the bad boys. Afters, we know that Lyanna could steal another woman's husband, Rickard had ambitions, Brandon was an asshole... and Rhaegar seemed to be loved by everyone (but his father), Aemon could trade a king's crown fot a master's chain,... That a person is seldom good or bad in every respect, much less so a family. I love this series.

[finger]

Good news, bad news kinda deal, as I see it.

Stannis will sit the Iron Throne . . .

But only long enough for Daenerys to oust him.

I don't think he'll survive the northern winter. I don't know why, but I've never been able to take him in earnest.

[finger]

Why Benjen joined the NW is one of the unanswered questions that annoys me more than the others because I think it will be of great significance, been looking for information about it and theories on it. Here are a few, I'm not saying there right or that I agree with them, just putting them out there.

1) Benjen + Lyanna = Jon,as a consequence of incest- Benjen sent to the wall (Highly doubt this theory due to plot holes and him being Stark not Lannister)

2) 3rd Son, unlikely to inherit, Brandon+Lyanna favoured children, Ned sent to the Vale, Benjen more or less ignored, joins NW for honour.

3) There is always a Stark at the Wall.

4) The theory I already mentioned.

5)- Not my theory, c+p'ed from another thread

'Instead of Benjen joining out of guilt, he joins because of a rift in the Stark family over Lyanna. All the Starks know Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar and that she wasn't kidnapped. Notice that when Brandon goes to King's Landing he calls for Rhaegar to "come out and die" - he says nothing of "releasing" Lyanna from captivity. Brandon, Ned, and Benjen were all at Harrenhal and I've got to believe a report of the romance between Lyanna and Rhaegar reaches Lord Rickard - the story of the roses and Lyanna's being crowned queen of love and beauty had to reach him. After this we have the announcement of the betrothal in Winterfell and Lyanna expressing her reservations about Robert and his character. I think Lyanna let it be known she didn't want to wed Robert, but it was her duty to do so once the Stark word had been pledged. After she runs off with Rhaegar, it is because the Stark's honor bound word is not respected by both Lyanna and Rhaegar that Brandon, and I think Rickard as well, are angered and do what they do. Not because they think Lyanna was kidnapped.

Ned's best friend was Robert and he felt strongly about the duty one has to marry according to the needs of the family, upholding its honour, and keeping its word. He shows this in his own life through marrying Catelyn instead of Ashara. But Benjen is a wild card. We have no indication what his thoughts about his sister's action were. He may have thought forcing his sister to marry Robert when he knew she loved Rhaegar was wrong and he let it be known. He carries out his own family duty when he stays in Winterfell while his father, brothers, and sister go south to the wedding and later during the war that follows, but he believed his father and brothers were wrong in their actions toward Lyanna. After the war, with Lyanna's tragic death at its end, he decides he wants out, and even though he can't quite blame Ned for Lyanna's death, he no longer has a family duty that compels him to stay in Winterfell and be reminded of the hurtful events. so he joins the Night's Watch were all familial bonds are broken :bowdown: Personally, that's what I'm hoping for!

In addition, GGRM refused to answer a question about why Benjen/Benjin took the black, and in a recent interview he confirmed that there will be backstory information on Benjin in tWoW :eek: Sorry this went off topic of R+L=J a little, but it is still vaguely related :drunk:

Ok, with some remarks:

I think RicKard and Brandon had died when Benjen took the black.

There has to be always a Stark in Winterfell

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't think he'll survive the northern winter. I don't know why, but I've never been able to take him in earnest.

Same for me. :blushing:

[Jon Icefyre]

It'd be a serious flaw. But I don't remember when Ned thinks that Aegon is dead.

He might even think Aegon is dead since he saw the corpses until Lyanna introduced him to the real Aegon.

Are you serious? lol We literally had this conversation earlier on one of these threads and I gave you an exact quote of Ned thinking about Aegon in the context of Aegon being deceased, but I'll give it to you again :

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."

Ned would not still be thinking of young prince Aegon in this context, if he really knew Aegon was still alive....

[FittleLinger]

Are you serious? lol We literally had this conversation earlier on one of these threads and I gave you an exact quote of Ned thinking about Aegon in the context of Aegon being deceased, but I'll give it to you again :

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."

Ned would not still be thinking of young prince Aegon in this context, if he really knew Aegon was still alive....

Yep, he explicitly calls them prince and princess. If he knew of the switch and this was one of GRRM's attempts to fool us in a Ned POV, he would've thought that they are still kids or something, omitting the part where Ned says their positions - prince and princess.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yep, he explicitly calls them prince and princess. If he knew of the switch and this was one of GRRM's attempts to fool us in a Ned POV, he would've thought that they are still kids or something, omitting the part where Ned says their positions - prince and princess.

:agree: Exactly

[finger]

Clegane didn't kill Rhaenys, Lorch did, in Rhaegar's bedroom.

If the switch had taken place so early, there would have had to be more people on it - the servants who take care of him in the first place, because I doubt that Elia was changing nappies herself. Did they all die, didn't anyone leak the secret?

Plus, how old is Aegon? That was after the Battle of Bells - not sure how late this was into the Rebellion but at least 6 months, perhaps closer to 8-9 or more already? There is no way you can switch a baby this old without people who know him well noticing, and also without the baby noticing. A kid this old knows who his people are.

Concerning that Hightower is not a courier, this is an absolutely moot point. Hightower will do what Aerys orders him to, and if Rhaegar wanted to negotiate the terms of his return to KL, Hightower is a logical choice as he would have been trusted both by Rhaegar and Aerys. Furthermore, if legitimizing Rhaegar's offspring with Lyanna (pregnant at that time already) and/or acknowledging their marriage as valid was a part of the deal, then it would be a document you wouldn't entrust to a common courier. Also, Hightower wouldn't have had to return to KL necessarily - in the absence of direct orders from Aerys to return, Rhaegar could have commanded him to stay. There were still Selmy, Darry, Martell and Jaime at this point to do the KG duty.

The quote - if you mean the one about not frequenting brothels - shows none of the kind.

Sometimes I get lost with unimportant details: Clegane, Lorch.... in the end, Tywin Lannister, no matter who did the do.

Let's analyze the facts. Of course Hightower would follow Aerys' orders, but I'd feel easier it the orders made sense.

Aerys could have used Hightower as a courier, but it doesn't make much sense.

Aerys might have not told Hightower what to do after delivering his message, but it doesn't make sense.

Rhaegar could have told Hightower to stay at ToJ but, what for? He trusted Dayne and Whent, and they were enough to manage minor hazards. What difference made Hightower?

The answers given to these questions are rather feeble, IMO.

Aegon would be THE ANSWER but I have no evidences.

Otoh, I don't think there's any doubt that Rhaegar was fond of women. It's a mnor detail, anyway, and I'm not sure it adds anything worthy.