The guy from the Vale Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 This is the sort of (brilliant) post that makes me regret not owning a digital version of Asoiaf...A circular cosmogony. I love the way your mind works ;)As for Jon potentially being Lightbringer, it fits with Rhaegar being TPtwP and Lyanna his Nissa Nissa, 'pierced' in agony and ecstasy and sacrificed to bring about Lightbringer (I'm the sword in the darkness).Tangential mind reading :) During my ASoS re-reading, I came across the following passage. It's Maester Aemon talking:He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I.Old wise Maester Aemon Targaryen sees promise in him... The Prince that was Promised. Promise me, Ned.That last one just blew my mind. Great catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Sorry for letting the steam here but...I. Am. Sick. Of. Being. Accused. Of. Blind. Fan. Lurve.Perhaps there are truly some rabid fans who want R+L = legit Jon because they root for him. I wouldn't know. I analyse and piece things together because of the textual clues and not some shipping, and if there anything that pisses me more than "Rhaegar and Lyanna are the worst people evarrr", it's this. Grrr.My apologies once again.I know what you mean.I wouldn't even deny that I'm a Jon fan to some degree (as in, I am happy I don't have to make excuses when rooting for him). But I coming through that Jon love through textual analysis; I don't analyse the text the way I do because of my love for Jon. Indeed, I was more of a Tyrion than a Jon fan before coming to these forums... but discussions here and a number of rereads have changed my mind on both of these characters.Amen :grouphug:Petty accusation is usually borne of lack of substantial textual support for hypothetical 'counter theories'. In some cases personal investment is so off the charts that when things don't go this or that way, kneejerk response is first denying and then projecting raging emotions onto people with different opinions.Reading a book is not like going to the game though. I personally don't root for anything or anyone, bar a good writing. Complex, intense and 'multilayered'. That includes good and coherent character building and development. I don't care to love or hate a character. I care to be intrigued by him/her, to be compelled to find out more and beyond, to turn the page ready to be shocked, surprised, touched or - why not? - bewildered. Ready to feel.Unfortunately I learnt the hard way that the only defense mechanism against such an 'onslhate' is sticking to people capable to contribute to discussion with a certain depth of analysis. And ignore all the rest.And now I go back to brush the pretty silver hair of my Rhaegar's doll :lol: :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Amen :grouphug:Petty accusation is usually borne of lack of substantial textual support for hypothetical 'counter theories'. In some cases personal investment is so off the charts that when things don't go this or that way, kneejerk response is first denying and then projecting raging emotions onto people with different opinions.Reading a book is not like going to the game though. I personally don't root for anything or anyone, bar a good writing. Complex, intense and 'multilayered'. That includes good and coherent character building and development. I don't care to love or hate a character. I care to be intrigued by him/her, to be compelled to find out more and beyond, to turn the page ready to be shocked, surprised, touched or - why not? - bewildered. Ready to feel.Unfortunately I learnt the hard way that the only defense mechanism against such an 'onslhate' is sticking to people capable to contribute to discussion with a certain depth of analysis. And ignore all the rest.And now I go back to brush the pretty silver hair of my Rhaegar's doll :lol: :rolleyes:Sometimes it's hard to give up an emotional attachment to a character or the relationship between certain characters once they are formed.Speaking from personal experience, I did not intend to form an emotional attachment to Ned and Jon, but I found myself drawn to the dynamic of their relationship as father and son. As such, it was very, very hard for me to accept that Ned was not Jon's biological father. This led me to reject R + L = J for reasons that had nothing to do with logic and everything to do with emotion. Even though I now accept that R + L = J is almost certainly true, I still find myself hoping I am wrong.Now: (1) where did you get a Rhaegar doll; and (2) do they have Ned and Jon dolls also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Now: (1) where did you get a Rhaegar doll; and (2) do they have Ned and Jon dolls also?Seconded - both :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 RRIt probably is a semantic difference at this point. It's just that I get the impression that people are so fixated on R + L = J that they refuse to even consider the possibility that GRRM wanted the readers to infer Jon was Ned's bastard with this passage.I also assume the RW is causing the forum to crash. My god, people are devastated! :oYes, this is what I said, but the inference is incorrect. It is a mind trick. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Sometimes it's hard to give up an emotional attachment to a character or the relationship between certain characters once they are formed.Speaking from personal experience, I did not intend to form an emotional attachment to Ned and Jon, but I found myself drawn to the dynamic of their relationship as father and son. As such, it was very, very hard for me to accept that Ned was not Jon's biological father. This led me to reject R + L = J for reasons that had nothing to do with logic and everything to do with emotion. Even though I now accept that R + L = J is almost certainly true, I still find myself hoping I am wrong.Now: (1) where did you get a Rhaegar doll; and (2) do they have Ned and Jon dolls also?Your 'emotional attachment' has never been that off the charts LOL I also appreciate the style of your posts, respectful and constructive. We can always disagree without transforming our nice discussions in a bloodbath. Forgive my inner classics nerd, but 'est modus in rebus', there is a proper measure in things...As for the dolls, Ned is off... the market and Jon sold out. But I could sell you a beautiful purple eyed Ashara barbie :leer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Nice catch!That last one just blew my mind. Great catch!Blame the manic quality of my re-reading ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Blame the manic quality of my re-reading ;)Reread as often and as thoroughly as you like - it's always a pleasure to read about the gems you find ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Reread as often and as thoroughly as you like - it's always a pleasure to read about the gems you find ;)It's such a pleasure to share, be challenged and keep on learning from all of you guys :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Your 'emotional attachment' has never been that off the charts LOL I also appreciate the style of your posts, respectful and constructive. We can always disagree without transforming our nice discussions in a bloodbath. Forgive my inner classics nerd, but 'est modus in rebus', there is a proper measure in things...As for the dolls, Ned is off... the market and Jon sold out. But I could sell you a beautiful purple eyed Ashara barbie :leer:Thanks for the kind words, and the offer. :DI think I should pass on the Ashara barbie, though. People might get the wrong impression about me. :drool:Yes, this is what I said, but the inference is incorrect. It is a mind trick. ;) :lol: Never thought of myself as a weak-minded storm trooper.Next thing you know GRRM will be telling me "These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm moved to add these sentiments to the RLJ :grouphug: ...I also don't get the Jon hate, the accusations of blind fandom or frankly the frequently made charge that RLJ is not friendly place. I don't get any character hate really. I mean, we're talking about works of fiction that we are apparently all passionate about-- why hate any of it? (umm, except Ramsay Bolton :ack:) As far as thread hate, compared with many of you folks, I'm "relatively" new here but I have found this thread to be a place where discussion is held with passion, intelligence and (most importantly to me) intellectual honesty. I've had disagreements with many of the regulars, but not a single one has been unfriendly. (I disagree with people IRL from time to time too, but being an adult I can usually do so with an open mind!)Anyhow... to some of the smartest & nicest people on the Forum... :cheers: eta- Ashara Barbie? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm moved to add these sentiments to the RLJ :grouphug: ...I also don't get the Jon hate, the accusations of blind fandom or frankly the frequently made charge that RLJ is not friendly place. I don't get any character hate really. I mean, we're talking about works of fiction that we are apparently all passionate about-- why hate any of it? (umm, except Ramsay Bolton :ack:) As far as thread hate, compared with many of you folks, I'm "relatively" new here but I have found this thread to be a place where discussion is held with passion, intelligence and (most importantly to me) intellectual honesty. I've had disagreements with many of the regulars, but not a single one has been unfriendly. (I disagree with people IRL from time to time too, but being an adult I can usually do so with an open mind!)Anyhow... to some of the smartest & nicest people on the Forum... :cheers:eta- Ashara Barbie? :lol:Well, I admit people can get snarky sometimes over here. However, that's usually towards people who have earned the snark, so to speak - those who visit the thread for months without getting any wiser, throwing out the same old rehashed pseudo-counterarguments again and again. Newbies are usually treated kindly, IMO - even if, sometimes, passionately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm moved to add these sentiments to the RLJ :grouphug: ...I also don't get the Jon hate, the accusations of blind fandom or frankly the frequently made charge that RLJ is not friendly place. I don't get any character hate really. I mean, we're talking about works of fiction that we are apparently all passionate about-- why hate any of it? (umm, except Ramsay Bolton :ack:) As far as thread hate, compared with many of you folks, I'm "relatively" new here but I have found this thread to be a place where discussion is held with passion, intelligence and (most importantly to me) intellectual honesty. I've had disagreements with many of the regulars, but not a single one has been unfriendly. (I disagree with people IRL from time to time too, but being an adult I can usually do so with an open mind!)Anyhow... to some of the smartest & nicest people on the Forum... :cheers:eta- Ashara Barbie? :lol:A lot of times I don't think it's a hatred for Jon's character personally, as much as it'sTarg hatred or rather the overall idea that Jon would be a Targ. Some ppl act as if Jon having a Targ father would somehow eradicate all traces of his Stark blood and heritage. Which is of course absurd because Jon would have the same amount of Stark blood if R+L=J is true that he would have as Ned's bastard....From my observations a lot of R+L=J detractors only focus on R and J, and seem to forget about the big L in the equation lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 A lot of times I don't think it's a hatred for Jon's character personally, as much as it'sTarg hatred or rather the overall idea that Jon would be a Targ. Some ppl act as if Jon having a Targ father would somehow eradicate all traces of his Stark blood and heritage. Which is of course absurd because Jon would have the same amount of Stark blood if R+L=J is true that he would have as Ned's bastard....From my observations a lot of R+L=J detractors only focus on R and J, and seem to forget about the big L in the equation lol... :agree: :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 A lot of times I don't think it's a hatred for Jon's character personally, as much as it'sTarg hatred or rather the overall idea that Jon would be a Targ. Some ppl act as if Jon having a Targ father would somehow eradicate all traces of his Stark blood and heritage. Which is of course absurd because Jon would have the same amount of Stark blood if R+L=J is true that he would have as Ned's bastard....From my observations a lot of R+L=J detractors only focus on R and J, and seem to forget about the big L in the equation lol...That's because for some people it's like rooting for both the Red Sox and the Yankees to win. It can't really be done. Jon's either a Stark or a Targ, he can't really be both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 That's because for some people it's like rooting for both the Red Sox and the Yankees to win. It can't really be done.Jon's either a Stark or a Targ, he can't really be both.You know, that's where I always start shaking my head. Of course Jon can be both. Not just that, but he is both. Rooting for one house above another just because is something I cannot understand. I can understand rooting for single characters, to some degree, but people supporting Team Stark, Team Targ or Team Lannister boggle my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxpey Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 You know, that's where I always start shaking my head. Of course Jon can be both. Not just that, but he is both. Rooting for one house above another just because is something I cannot understand. I can understand rooting for single characters, to some degree, but people supporting Team Stark, Team Targ or Team Lannister boggle my mind.I must admit I am pulling for Stannis to sit the IT. As a result, I am finding it hard to be a "fan" of any of the opposing players in the Game.It's nothing personal. I have no animosity towards Dany or Tommen or Aegon; it's just that I don't want them to succeed over Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'd expect this from a Stanstan but I expect better from someone who uses a Davos avatar, shame on you.Melisandre made me do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I must admit I am pulling for Stannis to sit the IT. As a result, I am finding it hard to be a "fan" of any of the opposing players in the Game.It's nothing personal. I have no animosity towards Dany or Tommen or Aegon; it's just that I don't want them to succeed over Stannis.Good news, bad news kinda deal, as I see it.Stannis will sit the Iron Throne . . .But only long enough for Daenerys to oust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 That's because for some people it's like rooting for both the Red Sox and the Yankees to win. It can't really be done.Jon's either a Stark or a Targ, he can't really be both.Ya but that doesn't make sense at all because it's not like a baseball player can be playing for the Red Sox and Yankees at the same time, while OTOH in GOT you can be on the same side of both your parent's houses aka Robb Stark getting support from North and house Tully/the Riverlands. So a sports analogy doesn't really work at all in this situation, because while it's impossible for a baseball player to play for two teams at the same time, Jon having a Targ father and a Stark mother, would mean that he has both Targ and Stark blood. It's literally as simple as that....So to say that you have to choose sides on the matter is a bit ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.