Why the celebacy vow of the Night's Watch is very Counterproductive

[aware_of_thrones]

As is the norm with most organizations is Westeros, being celibate seems to be a very big part of being either an elite warrior or an extremely cultured person. I believe that the enforcement of this rule in the Night's Watch is extremely counterproductive because, quite frankly, the Wall is in the far North.

If the Brothers in Black were allowed to have families, then there wouldn't be the very obvious issue that they perhaps own one of the single largest tracts of land in westeros compared to the holdings of various members of nobility and they are unable to use it to it's full potential.

In my view, it would be best to have a Roman Legion style of land distribution with Night's Watchmen recieving tracts of land for military service, forming families, working the land to produce sustenance for the Winter and maintain recruitment numbers by creating a sort of martial tradition of being part of the Night's Watch within the younger population. And if there is overpopulation, then the solution is most certainly Down South by sending people to other parts of Westeros, thus becoming a fully functioning and productive section of The Kingdoms.

I'm aware that there maybe some complications with this cenario but some feedback would be nice, because it contributes to the analysis of an Organization that is extremely similar to the Maesters and Kingsguard but is proving unable to maintain full operational status.

[Wynter Manderly]

well imo, celibacy, or specifically having no family, is usually so that the person will not have divided loyalties. if a member of the NW had a family somewhere in the gift at that member's family is attacked, will he stay in his post or go to try to protect his family?

[Mladen]

First, welcome to the forums :cheers:

As we were said, there is a good reason why men of NW live in celibacy. As Aemon said `love is death of duty`. And he is right. Look at Ned Stark, or Jaime Lannister. Their love was the death of their duty. And some man must be completely and utterly dutiful. Their hearts have to have only one worry - protecting the realm. Love and family create division in heart. Look at it this way:

You have a situation where wildings and Others are attacking the Wall. And you have family in the Gift. You know if wildings take the Wall, they will start pillaging the Gift. Half of men would start running with their families. And that would be truly the end of NW.

[aware_of_thrones]

First, welcome to the forums :cheers:

As we were said, there is a good reason why men of NW live in celibacy. As Aemon said `love is death of duty`. And he is right. Look at Ned Stark, or Jaime Lannister. Their love was the death of their duty. And some man must be completely and utterly dutiful. Their hearts have to have only one worry - protecting the realm. Love and family create division in heart. Look at it this way:

You have a situation where wildings and Others are attacking the Wall. And you have family in the Gift. You know if wildings take the Wall, they will start pillaging the Gift. Half of men would start running with their families. And that would be truly the end of NW.

To star off, thank you.

Next, I agree with your argument in part. Having read the books you get a better sense of the necessary rigidness of the vows of the Night's Watch, since laxness of these created the Night's King Situation. However, in the situation you've discribed, while it's true that the first concern of the Men of the Night's Watch would naturally be the safety of their families, I cannot help but notice that simple evacuation procedures to nearby fortifications could remedy the situation and get the Men back in to the fight, plus the eventual perpetuation of martial tradition within the families of the Night's Watch could create a truly professional fighting force in Westeros designed specifically to handle these situations.

My question mainly resides on whether the creation of a standing professional army in the wall with it's own sustenance of both resources and personnel might not be a better long-term alternative to maintaining the defenses of the Far North both agains the Wildling and The Others than relying on a mainly volunteer force, with little in the way of combat effective troops and necessary officers to take on command roles, that can dwindle at any given time and relies on third parties to obtain the necessary supplies to endure the seasons.

[Mladen]

My question mainly resides on whether the creation of a standing professional army in the wall with it's own sustenance of both resources and personnel might not be a better long-term alternative to maintaining the defenses of the Far North both agains the Wildling and The Others than relying on a mainly volunteer force, with little in the way of combat effective troops and necessary officers to take on command roles, that can dwindle at any given time and relies on third parties to obtain the necessary supplies to endure the seasons.

Well, NW once was indeed professional army. Knights would take black and consider it great honor. But, with time, NW degraded into what is now. The entire concept of NW isn`t bad, it`s the fact the `things that should never be forgetten` were forgotten and with Others gone for 8 000 years, NW became obsolete.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Families would be bad as that would increase the tendency for NW to become actively political beyond trying to get recruits and resources. There is Mole Town and celibacy is hardly an oath that is held to the highest standard like desertion.

[Runaway Penguin]

I have to say that whatever mysticism surrounds it... Argument could as easily be done the other way : If you have family, or prospect of happy retirement int he Gift, you have something worth fighting for, you have something to defend. Moreover, you are more likely to attract volunteers - one would say that non-celibate volunteers would be preferable for this noble cause than a band of thieves and rapists. Not that you cannot have a steady and loyal army consisted of such - just look at the Redcoats :P But generally men fight better if they have something to fight for.

True, one of weaknesses of medieval towns was that when enemy threatened to spill into town, burghers left the walls to protect their families (thus ensuring the fall), but this did not usually happen to soldiers, who maintained order longer and often plugged the gap etc. - regardless on whether their families were with them. No, Maester, love is not the death of duty - any more than desperation.

While I can see the mythical order willing to maintain mystic at higher echelons, there is no reason why rank and file has to be celibate as well. And families of rank and file would not threaten to drag the Watch in the politics.

moreover, families in the Gift would mean economic activity, and would help to make Watch more self-sufficient. After some decades, not only in food and arms, but also in Watchmen ;)

[Varamyr Sixskins]

I agree with the original poster and some of the others here. The celibacy oath is quite stupid because it essentially means that no one in their right mind would want to go there to settle the area. For those who claim that celibacy promotes dedication to the cause, you're quite mistaken if you use your heads and look at modern and ancient armies. Moreover, even in Martin's world, many characters don't maintain to their vows of celibacy, making the effort to maintain this vow a waste of energy.

[Bryrulz]

Loyalties...where do they lie? The first generation no problem. Serve and receive in the Gift. Multiply and conform. Second generation without conflict. Rinse repeat. Consolidation of power. Preferential tracts becomes power families. Serve better receive better.

Conflict arises without. Where do loyalties lie? Conflicts arise in the Gift. Where do loyalties lie?

Martial conflict north in perpetuity maintains vigilance. Martial conflict south sparingly. Where do loyalties lie? Idle hands for generations? Where do loyalties lie?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Celibacy isn't the same thing as having a wife and children, though.

Maybe there is a reason for them to not sire children. Maybe children aren't allowed in the NW because the Others look for them. Or simply is a way to say that they are married to their duty and the only family they're meant to have is each other.

[2fingers]

Celibacy isn't the same thing as having a wife and children, though.

That's why I think all the maesters and leaders look the other way when NW enter brothels.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

That issue could be solved by making the spouse and children of the men bound to the night's watch as well. So that father's sons worked at the wall on the grounds while they defended. The children could choose to take the black when they get of age or go elsewhere. But it would help to keep the wall populated.

I would imagine since the original "celibacy" rule was put in place during a time when serving on the nights watch was an honor, it may have been added to keep recruitment "manageable" as well as removing loyalties. With the wildlings crossing the wall I imagine that's how the system will eventually evolve into.

[joluoto]

The main issues are having no family and holding no land. Celibacy is the mean to those ends. Note that the Watch tolerate that the brothers break their oaths in Mole Town, since those encounters would most likely not result in either having a family or getting land.

[Le Cygne]

I think the OP is right. Celibacy vows create more problems than they solve. Even if they try to take the vow seriously, they're going to be drawn into the lives of those around them, near or far. Discontent leads to infighting, despair, desertion, etc.

[Ghost's Shadow]

The main issues are having no family and holding no land. Celibacy is the mean to those ends. Note that the Watch tolerate that the brothers break their oaths in Mole Town, since those encounters would most likely not result in either having a family or getting land.

But when Jon sleeps with someone, also not resulting into getting land and children, but resulting into saving the lives of everyone at at least Castle Black, he's an oath-breaker, should be put on ice, and is probably called plenty of other names, too. :shocked:

I too could see the Night's Watch evolve into something different. The time for knights to join the Watch because it's honourable to do so is long past. The Starks, and some other Houses, sure, still see the Watch as an honourable thing, but judging from the only few hundred people in the Watch and the quality of the people Yoren gets from King's Landing (rapists, murderers and younger boys that got into trouble versus the warriors that they need) speaks a different story for many people of Westeros. They have no more respect from people, and it's even okay to kill them now even when they state they are neutral and are bringing people to the Watch.

If the Wall is still standing after the Others had their invasion and it needs to be repopulated, perhaps some new found respect for the Watch will come, but how long is that going to last? They have a lot of rebuilding to do, all those castles that should be further brought into working order, and not to mention that debt they now have to the Iron Bank. The Gift is a large area that could be used to settle some families on, with the understanding that their assigned land (food, trades, taxes) belongs to the Watch, and the intention is the families will as well (vow, children to be raised for the NW but free to go if they don't want to join). It's a breeding program, but one to consider as an alternative to a dying Watch.

The old men from the Watch will be pleased to hear it being proposed. Another assassination attempt in the making.

[Pootie Tang]

As love is the death of duty, so is duty the death of love. People like to argue over who is Azor Ahai but ultimately I think it is going to wind up being a metaphor for the price of the duty the nights watch need to have i order to win against darkness.