Lord of Lannister Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I said SENT reinforcements...more men to fight not himself in person with with his entourage. why send your people to the dreadfull waste that is the North, to wear black, when you can keep them around you and dress them in pretty colours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raif snow Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 True, Renlys men always did seem very green and soft.^ lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 why send your people to the dreadfull waste that is the North, to wear black, when you can keep them around you and dress them in pretty colours Black is a very good color to hide all the ugliness of the less pretty ones . But seriously, if Stannis didn't go to war against Renly (which he did because of Melisandre's advice) he could still go to the Wall to regroup after sucking King's Landing. If it was a good hiding place from the Lannisters it would have been an adequate hiding place from his little brother. He's a cautious man. He wouldn't have been killed at the forefront of his soldiers in some stupid battle. And Renly himself would have needed to find a place to send all his fallen foes to. He was a politically savvy beast and would have known this was the solution to his problems, a solution that would also endear him to the Northerners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 But seriously, if Stannis didn't go to war against Renly (which he did because of Melisandre's advice) he could still go to the Wall to regroup after sucking King's Landing. With what army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 What army did he have when he ran to the Wall? The army he gathered at Storm's End abandoned him when he lost the battle. I don't think he had more men when going to the Wall than he had before storming Storm's End, just less ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roi Woodt Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 She is irrevocably wedded to beliefs that require her to lie, to manipulate, and to kill in pursuit of those beliefs, and she believes this good and just. You didn't answer the last question. If she really believes she made Stannis a Hero, (The Azor Ahai kind of Hero, with flaming sword and all) why does she drain this most important person to create shadowbabies. As mentioned in the books, at that point in time, he didn't really look like the warrior Mel apparently believes he is. She must know she is the one doing that, yet she continues to do that, while there are so many others around which she also could have "used" (at least according to the dungeon conservation with Davos, Davos could help as well (thus nothing to do with Kingsblood, or am I misremembering things?). But well, maybe the flames told her to do it this way, but she herself is saying they are not easy to read. So, she already knows she could be wrong, but she nevertheless drains the Hero instead of trying any other way. And since it is Mel, I think these flames are very easy to read, but sometimes it's less easy to explain them in such a way as to fit them in her plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 Roi, You didn't answer the last question. If she really believes she made Stannis a Hero, (The Azor Ahai kind of Hero, with flaming sword and all) why does she drain this most important person to create shadowbabies. 1) Because he's Azor Ahai and he's not going to die from it to begin with. 2) Because the shadowbabies were needed to get Azor Ahai to where he needs to be. 3) Because seducing Stannis into her bed seems to have been a good way to bind him a bit more closely to her. There's nothing about his being the alleged Prince Who Was Promised that makes him ineligible for helping his own cause, I dare say. Hear Me Roar, It's made clear that Stannis is looking older and more worn since he began to sleep with Melisandre, and Melisandre confirms that Stannis's "life fire" is presently too low for him to be useful in birthing another "son". She suggests to Davos that he could serve Stannis by visiting her chambers of a night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crannoggirl Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Its in the Davos chapter of ASOS where he is in the dungeon on Dragonstone and Mel comes down to chat with him. And I at least got the impression that she was talking full on sex the way you've got to do it to make a real baby, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I put that exact quote up on this topic about 4 pages back from here. But I'll put it up again and in full. The sex with Stannis part is implied by the offer Mel makes to Davos here: Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It may well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "with another man though...a man whose flames still burn hot and high...if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make... "...a horror." Davos retreated from her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Brother Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I have to disagree. When I read that section, I certainly didn't see the implication that Mel was sleeping with Stannis, and I don't think that's what she's saying. Either way, I don't really believe Stannis would do that, as just and righteous as he is, always consumed with doing the "right" thing. When Mel is in the dungeons with Davos, she talks about using Stannis' "light-fire" to birth that shadow baby, but there's no reason to assume its anything more than her magic. I don't see why they'd have to have intercourse for her to do whatever it is she does. "I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..." I always read this sentence as two separate actions. "Come up to my chamber and I'll **** your brains out. And then I'll use your light-fire to create monsters. But I don't think the one is necessary for the other. She could just use his light-fire without sex, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think sex is definitely implied. But it's put in an ambiguous way so that one is left guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bo Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I am not all that experienced in the ways of a seductive witch, but I have some street smarts to know not to go to a strange witch woman's chambers. My motto when it comes to mysterious supernatural-type hotties, when it sounds to good to be true, watch out or you may end up as some kind of vampire or something. She very may well be talking about one thing, but that doesn't always mean she's serving up what she is offering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 It's noted, starting in ACoK, that Stannis and Melisandre have spent nights together in his tent. Davos himself raises the question, and he's a man who very much believes in Stannis's righteousness, so I don't know why we should doubt the validity of the question any more than he does. He considers it an "unworthy" question, but that's apparently because regardless of the truth, it's none of his business. She literally _gives birth_ to Stannis's shadow, in any case. Usually women end up pregnant via sex, and all indications that this holds true to women pregnant with shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 There's also the talk in Dany's chapters about the maegi abilities (when talking about Mirri Maz Durr) According to the Dothraki the maegi steals a man's strength while sleeping with him to make magics. Can't give an exact quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Just to comment on when/if Stannis will die in a fashion. Due to the slayer of lies triplet Dany sees in the HotU vision, I think he will survive until Dany arrives in Westeros and reaches the Wall or the North. I don't know if Dany will kill Stannis. Maybe she will just expose the lie of him being AAR. Not sure of anything regarding the actual "slaying" but am pretty certain Stannis will survive until Dany arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowbinding shoe Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I believe he will be the shadowless king leading the Other/dead army Danerys dreams about. It fitted nicely with Melisandre's stealing of Staniss' shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholtzma Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 It's noted, starting in ACoK, that Stannis and Melisandre have spent nights together in his tent. Davos himself raises the question, and he's a man who very much believes in Stannis's righteousness, so I don't know why we should doubt the validity of the question any more than he does. He considers it an "unworthy" question, but that's apparently because regardless of the truth, it's none of his business. She literally _gives birth_ to Stannis's shadow, in any case. Usually women end up pregnant via sex, and all indications that this holds true to women pregnant with shadows. Mel is definitely "succubus-like" - a woman who seduces and has sex with men and in doing so, draws their strength from them. She just makes shadowbabies with the life-essence. One minor detail that bugs the hell out of me is that fact that she is so WARM all the time. What is up with that? That she can be at the Wall with no coat on, and feel unearthly warm is pretty creepy in and of itself. I wonder if this is a glamour, deceiving the person who feels her and interprets unusual warmth, or if this is real warmth coming from her body, which might mean that she could even be like an anti-wight, a warm animation of human flesh. Or perhaps she's just running a fever all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scafloc Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sleeping with Melisandre does not sound very much like Stannis. If it is true, what could she have said/done to persuade him? He is not the type to fall for a great body and he would see it a dishonourable. And he has some remark againt Davos meaning he will not do everything to get the throne (at least he says so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I don't think Stannis was fully conscious when the Shadowbabies were conceived. He was alseep while they were active so he may have been asleep during the whole thing, or have thought it was a dream even while sensing it in some way. As SBS mentioned, the Dothraki definition of a Maegi sounds very like the RL succubus legend, which in turn was blamed for nocturnal emissions. It all points to Stannis being asleep, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 She's burned much more than some wooden statues. I'm not sure how I can rate the burning of Guncer Sunglass or Hubard Rambton's sons for the sake of their faith as anything other than evil (Perhaps you consider something like the Spanish inquisition or the Salem witch trials moral policy?). Burning those men was Mel's way of scaring Stannis followers into line, nothing more. They weren't burned for being of the wrong religion, but for treason. Hubard Rambton's sons took up arms against Stannis' men, and slew four men. Guncer Sunglass refused--point blank--to support the claim of the legitimate king. They wouldn't have been killed if they weren't guilty of secular offenses. As late as A Storm of Swords, Davos has no trouble finding worshippers of the Seven on Dragonstone to support his conspiracy, people who criticize the Lord of Light openly. And yet only Alester Florent--a follower of R'hollor, at least nominally--was executed by Melisandre, not Ser Gerald Gower, not the Bastard of Nightsong, not Davos Seaworth himself. If Mel was that benevolent she would have just spilled the cup. Why? He knows what's in the cup. It's up to him to save his own life if he's interested in doing so or not. All he has to do is let it slip through his fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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