Littlefinger: Where is he going with Sansa? Using or Helping her, thoughts?

[Scipio Africanus]

I agree with these comments. I also think it would be out of character for him to force Sansa or anyone else to have sex with him but I do believe he will become more daring when it comes to his touches and kisses. In fact, we end the last book with a very long kiss.....

I agree that it isn't looking very good for that part of the story arc. :(

I personally want the arc to continue that LF grooms her as his protege and continue creating chaos in Westeros.

He's gotten the main houses he was after, but he's still wanting to destroy the system to the point beyond return. He wants all the highborn to realize at the last minute how screwed they were from the start when they crossed Littlefinger. Littlefinger wants everyone to realize how much better and smarter he is than the rest of them combined.

LF isn't the Joker, wanting to watch the world burn. He's the kind of guy who uses the rules and bends it for his own purposes. His main motivation is playing dangerous games and advancing himself.

While I realize the show is a different entity, can we assume his speech about the most important thing being the climb is the same motivation for book Littlefinger? That would mean it is indeed not power that he is interested in per se, but the game itself. Perhaps that is the distinction between him and Varys since it seems Varys is in it for the power and to ultimately place the Targaryens back on the throne.

LF is a gambler at heart, it's probably one of the few things that gets LF to feel emotions. I personally think that will be his undoing, that he'll make one gamble too many and it'll cost him his head. Though a lot of people think Sansa is going to murder him in WoW or something.

Varys isn't in it for Targ restoration btw, I'm almost certain of that.

[brashcandy]

Cercei probably ordered him to get rid of Jeyne as she was about as valueble as Eddard's pants. And he probably just dumped her in the first place he could think of. I doubt LF gave her much second thoughts, other than she may be useful in the future as a pawn, and if not she could work for him.

And this is meant to prove that LF was not exploiting/abusing Jeyne? The first place he thinks of is a whorehouse where she's brutally "trained" and then made available for the Lannisters to send North as a bride for Ramsay Bolton. It speaks to the man's depravity and a willingness to use anything and anyone to further his agenda.

He was never in a relationship with Cat, that's his frustration. Cat rejected him in the end (after he thought he slept with her - I personally think he really believes so). His whole raison d'etre is based on Cat's rejection, he probably genuinely believes she rejected him because of her father, who rejected him for being too low born (which, I suppose, has some truth in it, in the case of Lysa).

Yes, never in a relationship with Cat, but we do learn a lot of his early infatuation with her and then how he goes about deceiving her through his manipulation of Lysa Tully and the lie about the dagger. So saying that we only saw his romance with Lysa isn't true, at least not when it comes to what we learn about the man himself via his personal relationships. I also don't believe he's driven by Cat's rejection, but that's a whole other topic.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Varys isn't in it for Targ restoration btw, I'm almost certain of that.

This begs the question: What do you think he's in it for? Has this already been discussed on the forum?

As for Sansa/Littlefinger, I believe he will continue his grooming of her. After all, she's still a long way off from being ready-for-prime-time. But yeah, the touching is going to become more blatant and he may have her "partner" with him much more in the next book.

[Scipio Africanus]

And this is meant to prove that LF was not exploiting/abusing Jeyne? The first place he thinks of is a whorehouse where she's brutally "trained" and then made available for the Lannisters to send North as a bride for Ramsay Bolton. It speaks to the man's depravity and a willingness to use anything and anyone to further his agenda.

I never said that. But he exploits Jeyne as he did Dontos, in other words, he did what he usually does, and I doubt he gave her much thought till way later in the story, that's all I'm saying.

The whole "fake Arya" thing, was it ever established if it was his idea or that of Tywin's? If it was Tywin's, I suspect that he discussed fortifying Bolton rule by getting "Arya" to marry Ramsay, as by this time (the "fake Arya" arc took place much later) everyone including the Starks still thought Arya was with the Lannisters. Now that they were all dead apart from Sansa the Lannisters could credibly produce an Arya. And LF probably chipped in that he had this nothern girl in one of his cathouses they could use. That she was older and didn't look like Arya at all was irrelevant to Tywin.

[Scipio Africanus]

This begs the question: What do you think he's in it for? Has this already been discussed on the forum?

Everything's been discussed to death on this forum. Including Varys. :)

But Varys on the short term is highly likely in it for a Blackfyre restoration (this is based on several subtle references in the books). What his long term goal is, is yet a mystery to me, but I and others suspect he may be fooling even Illyrio and has another secret agenda.

[Master Forel's Fro]

He's gotten the main houses he was after, but he's still wanting to destroy the system to the point beyond return. He wants all the highborn to realize at the last minute how screwed they were from the start when they crossed Littlefinger. Littlefinger wants everyone to realize how much better and smarter he is than the rest of them combined.

Plus his blood is something he can never change and I think that pisses him off, weakening the noble houses and offering them marriages to low born for money dilutes their perfect noble blood they're so proud of. If he gets rid of that and then they can't use it to look down at him for his lack of noble blood.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

If I know GRRM like I think I do, he will try to redeem LF by having him genuinely trying to help Sansa as payment for what he put her family through and he'll write LF as content with working from the shadows.

[The Great Walrus]

If I know GRRM like I think I do, he will try to redeem LF by having him genuinely trying to help Sansa as payment for what he put her family through and he'll write LF as content with working from the shadows.

Redemption for Littlefinger? I'm sorry Petyr, i think your too late to hope for redemption...

[the Scorpion Knight]

He is using her. He won't content himself with first base for long, and may try to make a run for home.

agee . IMHO LF is incabale of love

He's going to do with Sansa exactly what he said he was going to do: use Sansa to take over the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North. I think that shortly after Sansa's wedding to Harry the Heir, he'll leave the Vale with her, go by the Twins and murder everyone there to get the support of the Riverlands and the North, and then march to Winterfell where he'll meet his death at Sansa's hand.

And I definitely think he'll rape her a few times.

totaly agree I.

I think Littlefinger thinks that he sees Sansa only as a pawn, but in fact he also sees her as a queen, a younger version of Cat. It's the one blind spot in his otherwise perfectly Machiavellian mind. We'll see if and how this throws a wrench into his plans.

I think the wrench stated when he told her to intend to poison SR

I agree with these comments. I also think it would be out of character for him to force Sansa or anyone else to have sex with him but I do believe he will become more daring when it comes to his touches and kisses. In fact, we end the last book with a very long kiss.....

I totaly disagree. he doesn't give a fuck about sansa wellbeing

[Master Forel's Fro]

If I know GRRM like I think I do, he will try to redeem LF by having him genuinely trying to help Sansa as payment for what he put her family through and he'll write LF as content with working from the shadows.

He could save westeros from the others and that would not redeem him for Ned let alone everything else he did.

[Scipio Africanus]

If I know GRRM like I think I do, he will try to redeem LF by having him genuinely trying to help Sansa as payment for what he put her family through and he'll write LF as content with working from the shadows.

I highly doubt this. Martin isn't the Darth Vader kind of storyteller. He took like 4 books to "redeem" mr. Hound, and he has yet to finish "redeeming" turncloak Theon and Jamie. Other characters were never "redeemed" at all.

And in particulair to LF's case, I haven't read anything yet that induces me to believe there is a shred of decency in him. Which is part of his charm I suppose, for some people.

[straits]

It would ruin LF's story arc IMO. Or at least I'd lose all interest in him. I'm sure Martin can think of a better way to conclude LF's story without Sansa raped.

PoV rape is a bigger taboo than character death in most fantasy series. I doubt it will come to rape in any form with LF/Sansa, though it may be hinted at.

And this is meant to prove that LF was not exploiting/abusing Jeyne? The first place he thinks of is a whorehouse where she's brutally "trained" and then made available for the Lannisters to send North as a bride for Ramsay Bolton. It speaks to the man's depravity and a willingness to use anything and anyone to further his agenda.

While LF may be depraved, his treatment of Jeyne does not prove it. There is often a disconnect between the moral implications of a deed and the psyche of the man who ordered it.

[-jelena-]

Using her, of course. Using her claim to gain him more power and using her personally for his sick perv mind. Not that he is not willing to help her if she just goes along wth his plans. But any sign of disobedience from her and she's finished. Good thing is that Sansa is pretty aware of that. She is way more careful now and she knows pretty well that LF is no friend of her.

[Light a wight tonight]

If I know GRRM like I think I do, he will try to redeem LF by having him genuinely trying to help Sansa as payment for what he put her family through and he'll write LF as content with working from the shadows.

Littlefinger couldn't redeem himself by becoming the Faith's champion and defeating Ser Robert Strong, sending Cersei to whatever punishment the High Sparrow devises.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Littlefinger couldn't redeem himself by becoming the Faith's champion and defeating Ser Robert Strong, sending Cersei to whatever punishment the High Sparrow devises.

if child murderers and incestious assholes can be redeemed, so can LF. Other characters do stupid shit and LF capitalizes. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's an asshole who deserves the worst possible fate, but so are people like Jaime and Theon, who have threads about how they can be redeemed.

[Scipio Africanus]

jaime and theon realise the error of their ways and try to become better men

They do? Not really. The only characters actively redeeming him/herself are mr. Hound and arguebly Brienne.

Turncloak Theon hasn't changed much in the sense of wanting to be better. He's simply traumatized from his little stay at chez Bolton. Jamie still is the selfish oathbreaking airhead he always was, the only difference is that he's now worried how people will remember him (which everyone worries about eventually).

Doesn't change that I highly doubt LF will ever be redeemed though.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I don't see how it's arguable that feeling bad about your crimes, when they're as atrocious as harming children, is a means for a road to redemption. That's bullshit.

[straits]

jaime and theon realise the error of their ways and try to become better men

There's a thread discussing the difference between the two. Theon is more regretful of where his life has brought him than he is of killing children. His inner reflection largely deals with self-pity. Jamie, on the other hand, is trying to fix what he thinks needs improvement.

[butterbumps!]

he will probably die doing something great for Sansa but she will not even notice it.

The day LF does something not for LF (and makes the ultimate sacrifice in the process, no less), is the day we learn the Other's natural enemy is the Trapper Keeper.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

The day LF does something not for LF (and makes the ultimate sacrifice in the process, no less), is the day we learn the Other's natural enemy is the Trapper Keeper.

I see you haven't got the news.