Littlefinger: Where is he going with Sansa? Using or Helping her, thoughts?

[spinelladude]

I have read the books, and I've started re-reading them now, but I can't help but wonder about Littlefingers goals. Granted its something that no one really knows, but what drives him, and could his motives have changed?

He seemed obsessed with advancement so he could be considered high enough to have Cat, and his actions seem to prove that. Then him spiriting off Sansa seems to be something planned well ahead, but are his actions driven at all by Cat's death by the Lannisters and Freys? With her death, he can never really have her, and having Sansa he can pretend that she is the child of him and Cat or just use her as a substitue, but I wonder if him providing Sansa with the army of the Vale is meant to play in plans to betray her, or to help with his revenge for Cat.

And even then, I am kinda hoping for a student become the master scenario with Sansa and Petyr, like he teachers her how to play the game like him, and she ends up out playing him and having him killed. It would be interesting to see that happen, or for littlefinger to seem like a likeable fellow.

[Father of Hosts]

I have read the books, and I've started re-reading them now, but I can't help but wonder about Littlefingers goals. Granted its something that no one really knows, but what drives him, and could his motives have changed?

He seemed obsessed with advancement so he could be considered high enough to have Cat, and his actions seem to prove that. Then him spiriting off Sansa seems to be something planned well ahead, but are his actions driven at all by Cat's death by the Lannisters and Freys? With her death, he can never really have her, and having Sansa he can pretend that she is the child of him and Cat or just use her as a substitue, but I wonder if him providing Sansa with the army of the Vale is meant to play in plans to betray her, or to help with his revenge for Cat.

And even then, I am kinda hoping for a student become the master scenario with Sansa and Petyr, like he teachers her how to play the game like him, and she ends up out playing him and having him killed. It would be interesting to see that happen, or for littlefinger to seem like a likeable fellow.

Sansa out-playing LittleFinger is a rather popular theory.

I don't think he expected Cat's death, but he adapted and creeped on Sansa to make up for it. Is he driven by Cat's death? I would say absolutely not. It was a kink in his plan, but nothing to derail his driving motivation.

[joluoto]

I don't think he know himself. There seem to be three conflicting impulses for LF regarding Sansa. The first is Sansa is a younger version of Catelyn, basically giving him another chance. The second is that Sansa is the daughter he and Cat never had, making him want to protect her. The third is that Sansa is a political tool to be used to advance his influence and power.

[Pootie Tang]

Welcome to the forums!

I read a theory by Butterbumps! awhile back where he analyzed the motives by Littlefinger. can't seem to find it now.

Play her, love her or educate her, to be honest I think LF hasn't decided yet. His love for her, or his desire for a Cat-proxy is going to take over I am sure though and in the end, that is what is going to be his downfall. Sansa is not playing him Atm in any relevant way as far as I can see.

[MasterJack]

I dont think he expected Catelyn's death in his evil-plan, and now he is redempting himself with Sansa. Is he driven by Catelyn's death? I would say probably, yes. He wanted to climb high enough to be a good match with Cat, sending Ned at the wall or getting him dead in the process. Now Catelyn died and all he wants is to save Sansa. LF has no friend to cry with, his 15yo plan blew up, and when he saw Sansa playing in the snow he lost it for a moment. When Lysa tried to kill her he never hesitated to kill her even if that put him in a dire disadvantage. In the process he even confirmed us that he loved only Cat. So Sansa is safe from any harm.

He is a bad guy that kill without remorse and sell littleboys and little girl without hesitation, but he will keep his promises to Sansa and give her some great power, knowledge, and cunning. :D

he will probably die doing something great for Sansa but she will not even notice it.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

Sansa out-playing LittleFinger is a rather popular theory.

I think Littlefinger is after world domination because he has a god complex so I really hope his affection for Sansa turns out to be his downfall. How perfect would it be if he was betrayed mercilessly out of nowhere after doing so much for her?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

i think he is trying to recreate Cat so he needs Sansa to be a noble lady,so in a way he helps her unintentionally.

she will either become Cat 2.0 or Lysa 2.0

[RKOpanther]

i think he is trying to recreate Cat so he needs Sansa to be a noble lady,so in a way he helps her unintentionally.

she will either become Cat 2.0 or Lysa 2.0

Cat 2.0 for sure. LF did not even like Lysa. Sansa definantly becomes a major player in the game and will displace Cercei at some point.

[Lord Freypie]

He is not trying to recreate Cat (Cat was no amoral game of thrones player), he's shaping Sansa into missis Baelish, his feminine copy.

Petyr is following a Manipulation 101 method, starting by making Sansa accomplice of/accomplish small things, then worse and worse.

He doesn't try to hide his bad side a lot, he tries to make her accept it and developp her own.

He espect her to stay loyal to him, not as a naive person, but as someone chosing him for what he is, one of the best possible ally in the GoT (and a kisser with a good taste of mint to awaken her lust).

His problem is he can only be doomed by this plan.

Either Sansa reaches her point of resistance when having to do something bad, revolt and betray him (the Sansfan wish fulfillment scenario).

Either he succeeds to shape Sansa as he wishes, she becomes like him, learning everything he did, and being like him obsessed with revenge (or just because she finds more interest in concluding another alliance) finally kills him in a cruel way, not because she remain good but because she is now as bad as himself (the kind of story Evil Martin may write).

[DaarioKnowsBest]

He is not trying to recreate Cat (Cat was no amoral game of thrones player), he's shaping Sansa into missis Baelish, his feminine copy.

Petyr is following a Manipulation 101 method, starting by making Sansa accomplice of/accomplish small things, then worse and worse.

He doesn't try to hide his bad side a lot, he tries to make her accept it and developp her own.

He except her to stay loyal to him, not as a naive person, but as someone chosing him for what he is, one of the best possible ally in the GoT (and a kisser with a good taste of mint to awaken her lust).

His problem is he can only be doomed by this plan.

Either Sansa reaches her point of resistance when having to do something bad, revolt and betray him (the Sansfan wish fulfillment scenario).

Either he succeeds to shape Sansa as he wishes, she becomes like him, learning everything he did, and being like him obsessed with revenge (or just because she finds more interest in concluding another alliance) finally kills him in a cruel way, not because she remain good but because she is now as bad as himself (the kind of story Evil Martin may write).

this would be more like Lysa 2.0 then.

that sounds like exactly what he did with Lysa until he got bored and annoyed and tossed her out the moon door

[Fire Eater]

He is using her. He won't content himself with first base for long, and may try to make a run for home.

[Lord Damian]

Littlefinger is using her to help himself. Anything he does it is for him, not someone else and not her unless he reaps a benefit from it. I think he covets her endlessly but if he "messes" up, he could lose much. She currently, to the known world, is the true heir and lady of the North, a Queen in many eyes. She is Edmure tully's heir (Rosalyn and baby will never be accepted in Riverlands, Edmure is such a dodo head). Littlefinger just has to do something to get rid of that Un-consumated marriage with her and Tyrion.

Special Note, Aegon Vi will need a queen and an alliance. Sansa Stark will be on the short list, mark my words. This would potentially benefit Littlefinger as a new King would get rid of the old ones friends, Littlefinger would need to become a friend of the new one.

[the trees have eyes]

I don't think he know himself. There seem to be three conflicting impulses for LF regarding Sansa. The first is Sansa is a younger version of Catelyn, basically giving him another chance. The second is that Sansa is the daughter he and Cat never had, making him want to protect her. The third is that Sansa is a political tool to be used to advance his influence and power.

Yes, well put. About Catelyn though: whatever his feelings for her but the time of AGOT, he 1) has Lysa write that letter alleging the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn and 2) he frames Tyrion for the second attempt on Bran with the lie about the dagger, manipulating and endangering her. It seems to me that Tyrion is bang on the money when he replies to Catelyn's "LF loved me as a child, it was a tragedy for all of us. etc.." on the way to the Eyrie with "LF has only ever loved LF!". LF may have feelings for Cat and Sansa but ultimately he will risk or sacrifice everyone in his pursuit of power for himself.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

One thing that might be relevant to this discussion is the whole "Unkiss" thing, where Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her even though he did no such thing. GRRM, when asked about that, basically said that she's an "unreliable narrator" and that something important will come of it later. I have not an inkling what that might be, but whatever it is could be a curveball in LF's plans for Sansa.

I think the best theory was that he will keep her safe, while molding her... but that eventually his lust will get the better of him.

There will also supposedly be a "controversial" Sansa chapter early in TWoW. Maybe LF will pounce on her sooner than later.

[brashcandy]

I dont think he expected Catelyn's death in his evil-plan, and now he is redempting himself with Sansa. Is he driven by Catelyn's death? I would say probably, yes. He wanted to climb high enough to be a good match with Cat, sending Ned at the wall or getting him dead in the process. Now Catelyn died and all he wants is to save Sansa. LF has no friend to cry with, his 15yo plan blew up, and when he saw Sansa playing in the snow he lost it for a moment. When Lysa tried to kill her he never hesitated to kill her even if that put him in a dire disadvantage. In the process he even confirmed us that he loved only Cat. So Sansa is safe from any harm.

He is a bad guy that kill without remorse and sell littleboys and little girl without hesitation, but he will keep his promises to Sansa and give her some great power, knowledge, and cunning. :D

he will probably die doing something great for Sansa but she will not even notice it.

Is this a joke?

We learn via Cersei's POV in ADWD that LF offered to marry Sansa after her father's death, so it's clear that his interest in her is not benevolent or fatherly, and Cat's death was definitely not a driving factor in his pursuit of her daughter. Now a man like LF is a user plain and simple, so all of his relationships are defined by an essential callousness; however, his entrapment of Sansa is a little more complex as he does seem to have some interest in grooming her as a protege, and passing on tricks of the trade. This goes hand in hand with grooming her as a sexual conquest as well, and all things considered, there's too much bad in this situation for Sansa to find a lot of good.

[Scipio Africanus]

He seemed obsessed with advancement so he could be considered high enough to have Cat, and his actions seem to prove that. Then him spiriting off Sansa seems to be something planned well ahead, but are his actions driven at all by Cat's death by the Lannisters and Freys?

I've given some thought on Littlefinger, and I can only conclude that Littlefinger is motivated only by Littlefinger. All he cares about is playing the game (he is an adicted gambler) and advancing himself. Despite being an extremely cynical sociopath I do agree with @joluoto dat LF might be conflicted about Sansa. His creepy attitude towards her when he first saw her is more than just lust, he does see her as a substitute for Cat. For I do believe LF did have genuine feelings for Cat (or at least he thinks so).

I suspect, like @brashcandy already mentioned, that we'll find out a lot more about the LF-Sansa relationship in WoW.

We learn via Cersei's POV in ADWD that LF offered to marry Sansa after her father's death

Cercei isn't a reliable narrator either but I feel LF offered this as he knew that Robb could very well have an accident leaving Sansa with Winterfell. It was probably more than just lust that motivated him, as usual.

, Now a man like LF is a user plain and simple, so all of his relationships are defined by an essential callousness; .

To be fair though how many "conquests" of LF do we get to see in the books? We only know of one relationship that he had with Lysa, a highly mentally unstable woman. For a ruthless cynical sociopath like LF the temptation to exploit that would be overwhelming.

His relationship with Sansa is more complex than his relationship with Lysa. I too fear though that he wants Sansa as his proxy Cat.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

from all accounts, Lysa was just as beautiful and normal as Cat or Sansa before LF got in her.

[Scipio Africanus]

from all accounts, Lysa was just as beautiful and normal as Cat or Sansa before LF got in her.

I doubt that to be honest, and if anything changed Lysa into permanent psycho it was her forced abortion and her subsequent miscarriages.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I doubt that to be honest, and if anything changed Lysa into permanent psycho it was her forced abortion and her subsequent miscarriages.

LF was the catalyst for all that IMO

[brashcandy]

Cercei isn't a reliable narrator either but I feel LF offered this as he knew that Robb could very well have an accident leaving Sansa with Winterfell. It was probably more than just lust that motivated him, as usual.

Did he also foresee the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon? I'm not saying it was based exclusively on lust, but I think that was the overwhelming factor. Look at his reaction to Sansa when he first meets her, and later on at the council meeting after Ned is arrested.

To be fair though how many "conquests" of LF do we get to see in the books? We only know of one relationship that he had with Lysa, a highly mentally unstable woman. For a ruthless cynical sociopath like LF the temptation to exploit that would be overwhelming.

Well we know he exploits mostly everyone he gets his hands on: Jeyne Poole, Dontos, the Kettleblacks, etc. And yes, Lysa might have been a bit unstable due to some awful experiences, but I have no doubt that LF played on those insecurities and exacerbated the underlying problems.