[Book Spoilers] Tyrion / Tywin Scene

[Broken Fox]

I knew that particular line in their discourse would fuel the fire of this ridiculous theory. For the last time....Tyrion is Tywin's son and no one else's.

1. Abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms in the form of moon tea. Lady Johanna would have taken it immediately to avoid a child of rape.

2. Aerys was always in the company of his King's Guard. They keep the king's secrets from others, but not from each other. Barristan would have said something.

3. There is no way Tywin would have left his wife without guards and servants. No way Aerys could have pulled it off without someone knowing.

4. It was said that Tywin may have ruled the Seven Kingdom's, but at home he was ruled by his lady wife. Any woman capable of keeping Tywin's confidences was no mental weakling. No way she would have kept quiet.

5. Tywin consistently uses the phrase "my son." He tells Tyrion that he is sending him to rule in King's Landing instead of Kevan or some bigger man, because Tyrion is his son. He tells Tyrion that the newly forged Valyrian Steel sword (Oathkeeper) is for his son (Jaime). When Tyrion shoots Tywin, he tells Tyrion that he is not his son. People use this phrasing all the time to disown disappointing children.

Everything you pointed out can be disputed. It's still up in the air. No one can be certain.

Personally, I never thought of it until I found this forum.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Even if Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son (which I don't believe for one second), he would still be a Lannister b/c his mother was a Lannister. So I kind of like the phrasing and think the writers did that purposefully to mess with book readers b/c they know that's one of the theories floating around and makes a great point of debate and conversation.

I think it's a great line b/c it can be read/heard in different ways. 1) that he literally is not his son (I doubt) 2) since he's a dwarf he doesn't view him as real son, but he raised him anyway 3) he could have sent him off to be raised by someone else, but raised him and I'm sure there are other interpretations.

That was a great scene. I love seeing Tywin and Tyrion interact.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Everything you pointed out can be disputed. It's still up in the air. No one can be certain.

Personally, I never thought of it until I found this forum.

Please dispute, if you can. I am certain.

[Broken Fox]

Lol

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Lol

I'm glad you're amused. Only way the theory works is if Aerys and Johanna were in love and secretly having an affair. Not even close.

[Mendoza]

When I saw that scene, I thought it would drum up the secret Targaryen theories.

I always thought Jaime/Cercei would be more likely than Tyrion, but that's just me.

Don't have much of an opinion either way, but if Tryion isn't a Lannister, then that family is done for.

[Maia]

1. Abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms in the form of moon tea. Lady Johanna would have taken it immediately to avoid a child of rape.

Moon tea, while fairly reliable, doesn't seem foolproof. Cersei surely had access to it, but she needed a proper abortion to get rid of Robert's child. And wouldn't they have dozed Lollys? Ditto Ashara Dayne - even in Dorne a noblewoman bearing a bastard is a significant disgrace.

So, in Tyrion's case, the moon tea may have failed and for whatever reason Joanna may have decided against mechanical abortion. Maybe she couldn't keep it secret from the Lannister clan, maybe the pregnancy was so abnormal that by the time she became aware of the need it was too risky.

3. There is no way Tywin would have left his wife without guards and servants. No way Aerys could have pulled it off without someone knowing.

There was a secret entrance in the Hand's bedchamber? Targaryens knew all the secret tunnels, remember.

Telling Tywin would have led to war and/or attempted murder of Aerys with subsequent execution for Tywin, and Joanna was a friend of the queen. Despite being a strong woman, she had all the reasons in the world to keep quiet - for the sake of her own family, for the sake of her friendship, for the sake of the realm.

5. Tywin consistently uses the phrase "my son." He tells Tyrion that he is sending him to rule in King's Landing instead of Kevan or some bigger man, because Tyrion is his son.

It was the only time that Tywin ever called Tyrion "son" and it was because he needed him badly. Interesting parallel with Cat-Jon here, BTW.

BTW, I'd say that it is now quite clear that Tywin didn't send Kevan because he wanted Kevan by his side as somebody whom he trusted competely, and not for any other reason. And that other than Kevan, Tyrion was the only one with both social standing and wits to curb Cersei.

The sad part is that GRRM has consistently said that the third head need not be a Targaryen (meaning he almost certainly is not a Targaryen).

The blood is not the name. IMHO, after all The evidence that we were given that blood is vital for bonding with dragons and that nobody except for Valyrian dragonlords ever managed to do it, it would be cheap if that somehow didn't matter.

Also, there is a nice symmetry in all dragon-riders being third children of one of their parents, all causing death of their mothers in childbirth, all being outcasts for one reason or another, and both Starks and Lannisters, who were such bitter opponents in the War of Five Kings, both contributing a rider.

And yea, I have to agree that show Tywin's explanation makes no sense. Given that the kinslaying aspect seems to be absent in the show, wouldn't it have been to the benefit of House Lannister to kill newborn Tyrion and stiffle the rumors of his abnormality?

I kinda hope that in the show has somebody challenges Tywin for never remarriying himself - which was definitely to the detriment of House Lannister. He could have had that Riverlands alliance even after Jaime was taken, if he had offered himself.

In the books, Tywin was less heavy-handed and more manipulative, so it made sense, somewhat, but given more confrontational nature of Lannister relationships in the show and dramatic potential, I hope that they do explore this.

[flinn]

After that episode, the group of unsullied in my house are all thoroughly convinced that Tyrion is NOT Tywin's true son.

I never gave it much thought prior to this, even seeing the theories, but I am not completely convinced as well.

Unless something changes it, I am going forward fully believing Tyrion is King Aerys and Tywin's wife son.

Tywin kept Tyrion to cover it up. He had to decide what was the most shameful for his house, him having a dwarf son, or everyone knowing King Aerys was sleeping with his wife.

I also agree with the above poster..

Tywin's wife was a Lannister, even if by marriage. That is why the wording was so important..

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Moon tea, while fairly reliable, doesn't seem foolproof. Cersei surely had access to it, but she needed a proper abortion to get rid of Robert's child. And wouldn't they have dozed Lollys? Ditto Ashara Dayne - even in Dorne a noblewoman bearing a bastard is a significant disgrace.

Well, Cersei said that Jamie found a woman to "cleanse" her. That may have been by chemical means. We don't now how far the pregnancy progressed. It may have been too late for moon tea. As for Lollys, much is unclear. When she was exactly found and what condition she was in is left silent. We do know she was raped half a hundred times, but from a physical standpoint she may have been to injured to sustain any side effects caused by moon tea. And as for Dorne, I disagree with you completely. Bastards are openly acknowledged and treated due to their rank and station. The sand snakes and Ser Daemon Sand all seem to be treated with distinction. It likely would have been the same for Ashara's child.

There was a secret entrance in the Hand's bedchamber? Targaryens knew all the secret tunnels, remember.

Yea, but we don't know if Johanna was with Tywin in King's Landing. I assert he left her in charge of the West, much like Ned left Cat to guide Robb's. Additionally, the secret chambers seem to be known at this point, only to Varys. I think that over time the knowledge was lost and then rediscovered by Varys during his tenure as master of whispers. You don't think Johanna would have cried out to the guards outside of the door? Aerys ditched his King's Guard and went unnoticed as he went on a covert mission to rape the wife of the most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms?

Telling Tywin would have led to war and/or attempted murder of Aerys with subsequent execution for Tywin, and Joanna was a friend of the queen. Despite being a strong woman, she had all the reasons in the world to keep quiet - for the sake of her own family, for the sake of her friendship, for the sake of the realm.

Possible, but I'm not buying it. Despite being the king, raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros would have turned some heads. Honorable lords like Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Rickard Stark may have flocked to Tywin's banner or at least stayed neutral in the conflict.

It was the only time that Tywin ever called Tyrion "son" and it was because he needed him badly.

It may have been the only time, but it does not change the logistics of my point. In fact, it only strengthens my argument. Tywin at that point gave Jamie up for dead and turned to the last remaining male "heir" of his body. In addition to having him rule in his stead, he was removing him from further danger on the battlefield.

BTW, I'd say that it is now quite clear that Tywin didn't send Kevan because he wanted Kevan by his side as somebody whom he trusted competely, and not for any other reason. And that other than Kevan, Tyrion was the only one with both social standing and wits to curb Cersei.

Lets say you are right about Kevan, other men were certainly capable. Addam Marbrand, Flement Brax, and Lord Serrett are all mentioned by Tyrion to Tywin, indicating their rank, station, and standing in Lord Tywin's eyes. Roland Crakehall is mentioned by Jaime as good candidate for Hand of the King. Lastly, any man carrying Lord Tywin's letter and seal of approval would have suited.

The blood is not the name. IMHO, after all The evidence that we were given that blood is vital for bonding with dragons and that nobody except for Valyrian dragonlords ever managed to do it, it would be cheap if that somehow didn't matter.

Makes sense if Tyrion is a dragon rider. More likely, Aegon VI fits the bill. What other blood evidence is there except for Valyrian heritage? Moqorro seems to think it have nothing to do with heritage.

Also, there is a nice symmetry in all dragon-riders being third children of one of their parents, all causing death of their mothers in childbirth, all being outcasts for one reason or another, and both Starks and Lannisters, who were such bitter opponents in the War of Five Kings, both contributing a rider.

Nice symmetry, but nothing to do with blood.

And yea, I have to agree that show Tywin's explanation makes no sense. Given that the kinslaying aspect seems to be absent in the show, wouldn't it have been to the benefit of House Lannister to kill newborn Tyrion and stiffle the rumors of his abnormality?

With his wife dead, Tyrion is his only male safety valve should something happen to Jamie. Keeping him alive was a calculated benefit to the family.

I kinda hope that in the show has somebody challenges Tywin for never remarriying himself - which was definitely to the detriment of House Lannister. He could have had that Riverlands alliance even after Jaime was taken, if he had offered himself.

Well, not if he truly loved his wife and chose to forsake all others. It happens. Given his coupling with Shae, he may have even had a whore or two, or at least a respectable young maid.

[kephv]

If anything, Tywin's assertion seems to support that he certainly is his son - or at least thinks so - else he would've thrown him in the sea.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It may have been the only time, but it does not change the logistics of my point. In fact, it only strengthens my argument. Tywin at that point gave Jamie up for dead and turned to the last remaining male "heir" of his body. In addition to having him rule in his stead, he was removing him from further danger on the battlefield.

Once Tywin decided not to throw Tyrion into the sea, he was pretty much stuck with the story that Tyrion was his natural born son. If he referred to him as anything but that, or gave any hint to anyone that Tyrion was not his son, that would have been a huge stain both on the honor of his late wife, and of House Lannister. And, it would essentially have been an admission that he'd lied to Westeros for the past 25+ years.

His reference to Tyrion as "my son" is worthless, because it was the only possible way he could refer to him under the circumstances. Though I suspect that there are many, many times Tywin has regretted his decision not to give Tyrion to the sea.

Personally, though, I don't buy this theory. I buy R+L=J, and having two secret children born of the King (though different Kings) as a late series reveal would be kind of cheesy.

[Nami]

I doubt there is a bunch of secret Targs in this story.

Look how lame it would be for GRRM pull that twice. First with Jon (which is almost certain) and then with Tyrion again?

Also, Dany already has a hell of a time to keep herself steady on top of Drogon, can you imagine a dwarf doing it?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If anything, Tywin's assertion seems to support that he certainly is his son - or at least thinks so - else he would've thrown him in the sea.

I agree completely...if he had any inkling that Tyrion was not his, Tyrion would have been toast. It would have been fairly easy to do away with a deformed child born of rape.

Two additional points:

1. Aerys' known infatuation with Johanna and the liberties he took at Tywin's wedding (likely some groping) is used as evidence of possible rape. Aery's was mad at the end, but not stupid. He would not rape the wife of his Hand and the most powerful lord in Westeros openly or secretively. Aerys' madness did not take over until after the defiance of Duskendale.

2. Aery's sexual abuse of his wife is also used as evidence. But there is no evidence of him being a serial rapist. He never raped anyone else, let alone Tywin's wife.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Moon tea, while fairly reliable, doesn't seem foolproof. Cersei surely had access to it, but she needed a proper abortion to get rid of Robert's child. And wouldn't they have dozed Lollys? Ditto Ashara Dayne - even in Dorne a noblewoman bearing a bastard is a significant disgrace.

We'd also have to consider the possibility that Lady Joanna was opposed to the idea of an abortion just on its own merits. After all, it was her baby either way. And, there may well have been some doubt as to whether it was actually Tywin's or Aerys. Either way, she may have deliberately chosen to go ahead with the birth. And of course, during the pendancy of her entire pregnancy, the Lannisters would have stuck with the story that it really was her and Tywin's child. And once they've been telling everyone that for 7 months or so, Tywin is kind of stuck with that story after Tyrion is born with his mismatched eyes, etc..

In other words, the decision made at the very beginning of whether or not to abort the pregnancy basically dictated what the Lannisters had to say/do from that point forward.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Once Tywin decided not to throw Tyrion into the sea, he was pretty much stuck with the story that Tyrion was his natural born son. If he referred to him as anything but that, or gave any hint to anyone that Tyrion was not his son, that would have been a huge stain both on the honor of his late wife, and of House Lannister. And, it would essentially have been an admission that he'd lied to Westeros for the past 25+ years.

His reference to Tyrion as "my son" is worthless, because it was the only possible way he could refer to him under the circumstances. Though I suspect that there are many, many times Tywin has regretted his decision to give Tyrion to the sea.

Personally, though, I don't buy this theory. I buy R+L=J, and having two secret children born of the King (though different Kings) as a late series reveal would be kind of cheesy.

I don't see your logic. Tywin places family above all else. If Tyrion were Aerys' he would be a bastard and no Lannister. He would have been toast right then and there.

Lets go back to season 1. Jaime tells Tywin that he didn't know that he placed such high value on his brother's life (by starting the war). Tywin responds that he is a Lannister. He may be the lowest of the Lannisters, but he is still one of us.

I know we are going round and round with word play, but I think it is unmistakeable that Tyrion would have been dead long ago if he was the son of Aerys.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

We'd also have to consider the possibility that Lady Joanna was opposed to the idea of an abortion just on its own merits. After all, it was her baby either way. And, there may well have been some doubt as to whether it was actually Tywin's or Aerys. Either way, she may have deliberately chosen to go ahead with the birth. And of course, during the pendancy of her entire pregnancy, the Lannisters would have stuck with the story that it really was her and Tywin's child. And once they've been telling everyone that for 7 months or so, Tywin is kind of stuck with that story after Tyrion is born with his mismatched eyes, etc..

In other words, the decision made at the very beginning of whether or not to abort the pregnancy basically dictated what the Lannisters had to say/do from that point forward.

Women are typically not that fond of children born of rape. I don't think abortion is against the Faith of the Seven, but who knows. We know that Lady Johanna loved her lord husband and would not birth him a child that was not his. We already have one mother dying on a bed of blood and asking for mercy for her newborn, I don't think we have two.

The only way she would have forgone the moon tea is that she knew she was pregnant before hand and would not have wanted to harm Tywin's baby. A women who had given birth to twins would know the signs of pregnancy.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't see your logic. Tywin places family above all else. If Tyrion were Aerys' he would be a bastard and no Lannister. He would have been toast right then and there.

How does making what amounts to a public admission that your wife fucked the King, and you let him get away with it, help the Lannister family? Isn't that the exact kind of "dirty laundry" that Tywin might be tempted to avoid? He would be humiliated as a cuckold, and perhaps reviled as a kinslayer for killing his wife's child.

Lets go back to season 1. Jaime tells Tywin that he didn't know that he placed such high value on his brother's life (by starting the war). Tywin responds that he is a Lannister. He may be the lowest of the Lannisters, but he is still one of us.

Again, once you've decided to go with that story, you have to keep to it, which means you have to protect Tyrion as if he was Tywin's own son.

Women are typically not that fond of children born of rape.

I'm not sure we can extrapolate modern beliefs to Westeros, but in any case, what "typical" women may feel does not mean that every woman feels the same.

We know that Lady Johanna loved her lord husband and would not birth him a child that was not his.

How do we know that, exactly? And, you are still overlooking the point that they mave had had doubt about whose child it was. If Tywin and Johanna had sex the night before, for example, they could easily have been unsure. It would not have been until after the birth, when the baby looked nothing like other Lannisters, and had mismatched eyes, that Tywin came to believe it was not his son. But at that point, seven months or so after everyone knew she was pregnant with what they all assumed was Tywin's baby, it may have been too late.

The key point here is doubt as to who the father was.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

How does making what amounts to a public admission that your wife fucked the King, and you let him get away with it, help the Lannister family? Isn't that the exact kind of "dirty laundry" that Tywin might be tempted to avoid? He would be humiliated as a cuckold, and perhaps reviled as a kinslayer for killing his wife's child.

Again, once you've decided to go with that story, you have to keep to it, which means you have to protect Tyrion as if he was Tywin's own son.

My point is that killing Tyrion would have been all the more easier. If Tywin had drowned Tyrion, with the deformity being the excuse, no one would have batted an eyelash. Even if Johanna had been raped, (which she was not) Tywin had no need to address is publicly. His conscience (if he ever had one) would have been free and clear.

No way Tywin continues to work for Aerys knowing what he did to his wife. You are selling Tywin incredibly short. He left office only when Jaime was thought to be lost to the king's guard.

Additonal points:

1. If Aerys did this, why did Tywin not support Robert's rebellion from the beginning? Why did he not join Robert at the Trident?

2. You have to setup a credible timeline that puts Aerys and Johanna together nine months before Tyrion's birth. Did Johanna come to King's Landing to visit Tywin? Did Tywin come West to visit Johanna when time permitted? Was Johanna staying in King's Landing? Was she ruling in the West (my thoughts)?

3. How can the king escape all notice and go on a covert operation mission to rape the wife of the strongest lord in the Seven Kingdoms? How can he bypass all of her security?

4. Rhaella Targaryen is the only evidence of Aerys raping anyone. From her we know that had a fetish for biting and scratching (man in dragon form). We are to believe that Tywin would let such savagery pass?

Sorry, not buying it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If Tywin had drowned Tyrion with the deformity being the excuse, no one would have batted an eyelash.

Where is the evidence that nobody would have batted an eyelash? We do know that kinslaying is considered a monstrous taboo in Westeros, and even with respect to non-noble dwarf babies, they are just abandoned (and free to be raised by someone else), not flat-out murdered.

All that being said, the decision as to whether or not to actually do that is what (according to the theory) Tywin struggled with, and eventually decided not to do.

1. If Aerys did this, why did Tywin not support Robert's rebellion from the beginning? Why did he not join Robert at the Trident?

In case you missed it, I do not agree with the theory. I just don't think there is enough evidence to disprove it, and there remains enough ambiguity in the text to make it a possibility.

When it comes to his family, Tywin is utterly pragmatic. Any personal grudge he might bear Aerys wouldn't enter into it at that point.

2. You have to setup a credible timeline that puts Aerys and Johanna together nine months before Tyrion's birth. Did Johanna come to King's Landing to visit Tywin? Did Tywin come West to visit Johanna when time permitted? Was Johanna staying in King's Landing? Was she ruling in the West (my thoughts)?

No I don't. You'd have to prove that such a timeline is impossible. Else, it remains a possibility. Johanna became pregnant with all three of her children while her husband was serving as Hand. So either this happened when she was with him in KL, or if he went to see her in Casterly Rock. The text doesn't say, so both are possible. And if it is the former, that timeline puts Aerys in the right place at the right time.

Personally, I think it much more likely that the lady came to KL (after all, it's the Court), than Tywin essentially abandoning his duties as Hand for extensive periodic vacations in Casterly Rock. A dififuclt pregnancy making it impossible for her to travel would explain why Tywin had to go back to the Casterly Rock for the birth.

3. How can the king escape all notice and go on a covert operation mission to rape the wife of the strongest lord in the Seven Kingdoms? How can he bypass all of her security?

If she was visiting her husband at the time in KL, all he had to do was go in her chamber while Tywin was otherwise occupied. As we know from Varys, there are secret passages all other the Red Keep. Such as the one Tyrion used to kill his father. Heh -- that'd be quite the irony, wouldn't it? I don't buy the theory, but wouldn't it be a kicker if Varys ends up telling Tyrion about how he remembered that passage being used once before....

4. Rhaella Targaryen is the only evidence of Aerys raping anyone. From her we know that had a fetish for biting and scratching (man in dragon form). We are to believe that Tywin would let such savagery pass?

There are two possibilities here. Johanna may have delayed telling him because she knew what the consequences would be -- Tywin might freak, and be killed by the Kingsguard. Or, perhaps she did tell him, but prevailed upon him not to freak by saying that if he challenged Aerys, not only would he get killed, but Aerys likely wouldn't stop until Jaime, Cersei, and Johanna were dead as well.

sorry, not buying it here

Neither am I, but the text certainly leaves open the possibility.

[strangejosh]

I know people think it's ridiculous that Tyrion could be a Targ, but after that scene I think the producers may know something from GRRM. I don't think the fact that he is the most like Tywin necessarily means he is his son.