Becoming No One: Rereading Arya IV

[Lala]

Np~ And it is always nice to go back and run through all of the turning points of her character. I admit I wasn't very fond of her to begin with - I found her rather static until the FM arc, but upon rereading, I started to pick up more of the hints and subtler transformations she underwent even before that "bam! in your face" crisis-of-identity she faces in ADwD, which really helped me appreciate her character more. (Also I started to remember that she's 8? at the time of AGoT)

It's so fascinating how both sisters are struggling with identity and loss of identity in the time span of AFfC and ADwD - I can't wait to see how this plays out in the future~

[The Sleeper]

Does anybody have any clue why there is zero interaction between Arya and the other accolytes? Is there a point to it or did Martin simply forgot. Though I suppose even introductions would be a trial. "Hi, I'm no one" "How are you? I'm no one, too" "Did you notice, how no one snores?" "He does?" "Not him, the other no one" "no, you're lying" ...

[Alberich]

Np~ And it is always nice to go back and run through all of the turning points of her character. I admit I wasn't very fond of her to begin with - I found her rather static until the FM arc, but upon rereading, I started to pick up more of the hints and subtler transformations she underwent even before that "bam! in your face" crisis-of-identity she faces in ADwD, which really helped me appreciate her character more. (Also I started to remember that she's 8? at the time of AGoT)

It's so fascinating how both sisters are struggling with identity and loss of identity in the time span of AFfC and ADwD - I can't wait to see how this plays out in the future~

Thank you. :) I like also to observe the turning points of her character. For me, Arya has won my sympathy by her joke about the fish in the wolf’s mouth :rolleyes: and then she has irretrievable won my heart by her stand up for her common friend against Joffrey. :box: And Arya is 8 years old in the beginning of GoT. But the travel to Kings Landing needs time, to get lessons by Syrio needs time, and when she flees from Red Keep, I think (but I am not sure) that she should be 9 years old.

Does anybody have any clue why there is zero interaction between Arya and the other accolytes? Is there a point to it or did Martin simply forgot. Though I suppose even introductions would be a trial. "Hi, I'm no one" "How are you? I'm no one, too" "Did you notice, how no one snores?" "He does?" "Not him, the other no one" "no, you're lying" ...

:lmao:

No, sorry, I have no clue why there is no interaction between the acolytes. And the dialogue you wrote is wonderful!

[Blisscraft]

Does anybody have any clue why there is zero interaction between Arya and the other accolytes? Is there a point to it or did Martin simply forgot. Though I suppose even introductions would be a trial. "Hi, I'm no one" "How are you? I'm no one, too" "Did you notice, how no one snores?" "He does?" "Not him, the other no one" "no, you're lying" ...

Very funny! :cheers:

[Where is Rickon]

Acolytes and servants of HoBaW are the true faceless men of Bravos. i don't think we get any description of them except for age. Not even "tall" or "fat" . Zero-dimentional characters.

[Where is Rickon]

Acolytes and servants of HoBaW are the true faceless men of Bravos. i don't think we get any description of them except for age. Not even "tall" or "fat" . Zero-dimentional characters.

[The Sleeper]

Also, on valar morghulis / valar dohaeris, I was thinking about the huge difference between these two statements.

Valar morghulis represents the one and only certainty in life. Eventually, all living creatures will die. It is one of the rare declarations, where "it is known" is the most fitting answer.

On the contrary, valar dohaeris can be interpreted in hundrends of ways. You know nothing... What does it mean "to serve"? And whom?

Mance Rayder would reply with the "Dornishman's wife", opposing a life of pleasure to a life of service. Once again, Ygritte knows best: "All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we’ll live.”

When I was in school, we were assigned to write an essay on the following quote (unfortunately, I've forgotten by whom): "I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life is duty". Of course my seventeen year old brain could not wrap itself around this statement, or its magnitude and gravity, but it stayed with me. Valar Dohaeris reminds me of that quote. I suppose, that I see it the same way, not as a matter of serving someone, but serving a purpose. Human beings don't live in a vacuum. Their presence and actions have consequences beyond themselves and thus bear responsibility for them. That is how I understand service. Coupled with all men must die as the two sides of the coin of the FM philosophy, it takes a lot of meanings. For one, if one side of the coin is death the other must be life. So the FM are clear on that account. Life is service. Two, it is not presented as a choice, but as fundamental an aspect of the human condition as death is. Three, as all men die, or who men are is transient, what matters, what is solid and lives on is what they do, how they serve.

Personally, I get the goosebumps when that motto appears.

[Lykos]

When I was in school, we were assigned to write an essay on the following quote (unfortunately, I've forgotten by whom): "I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life is duty". <snip>

Google tells me it´s by Rabindranath Tagore. I feel this connects well with -

Jon V ACOK

<snip>

Observations <snip>

• “We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defence of the realm?” c/f Tyrion I AGOT “Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities.”
  

<snip>

Commitment equals death?

[The Sleeper]

Google tells me it´s by Rabindranath Tagore. I feel this connects well with -

Actually, it was supposed to have been someone else's who appaently ripped it off and passed it on as their own.

Commitment equals death?

How so? More like Qhorin's commitment was what made his life important.

[Lykos]

just an Other, I just googled the quote, since it conveys a pretty basic message there might have been several people stating this without knowing about each other.

Yeah I think it´s Tyrion´s misconception. Qhorin´s commitment meant giving up his life, and I agree that´s what made it important (at least inside the story). I think Martin also views death differently than most people, but I´m not quite clear on what his view is on the willingness to sacrifice oneself, which is appearently a theme. :dunno: He probably just wants us to think about this.

Maybe commitment brings meaning to life, while (just) keeping possibilities open doesn´t, and one will eventually die just the same? Valar Morghulis.

[DrunkSister]

If we go back to the FM origin story they were giving the gift only to those slaves who prayed for death. Then there are people who drink from the pool: a bravo badly wounded Arya assisted with suicide (but they KOM tells her that she is too young to die, I can imagine him hovering to prevent her to take any herself), old people (parallel to winter hunts in Westeros), those who wish to commit suicide etc.

And then there are the assassinations: a woman poisoning her step child, a corrupt insurance salesmen (but not his guards!)... these people do not serve, in fact they do the opposite.

There is an exception to the 'no collateral damage' rule: Pate was killed in Oldtown, but only after saying that he is a thief - he did not serve. And Dareon, FM do not disprove of the killing, just that it was 'Arya' who did it, and not 'no one', he did not serve either.

I think this is the part of 'what they did with he masters' - for the current generation of FM it is completely irrelevant whether they have anything to do with Doom of Valyria or not, in their foundation myth which explains their purpose they did. Which makes me wonder what the price was for so many deaths, and who paid for it.

As for Waif, I would feel much better if when people said she is a warning they added that they mean so on symbolical level because everything else sounds ableist and brings my brain to a screeching halt.

Waif will never be able to have children due to what her stepmom did to her but she can do magic, she knows poisons (and by extension, healing), she is an important member of the best assassin group in the world, has immense recourses at her disposal, can we not pity her.

As for being a warning, I cannot see how she was supposed to avoid having that horrible woman for a mother.

[Pod The Impaler]

Sorry for the very late and after-the-fact comments. I've had very little time for the forums lately. I've spent much of this day catching up on this thread.

So here's a very brief commentary on a lot of what's been said. I'll try to relate it to the real-time discussion issues, where possible...

(ASOS)

(just an Other)

There is an overbearing sense of loneliness starting from the hole where her parents and her brothers lived and extending to everyone she got to know during her journeys, so far... Death and abandonment and all sides and the strong emotional bonds that she longed for are nowhere to be found. She even berates her self for wanting it. A stupid, little girl and no wolf at all... In many ways this is a repeat performance of her first chapters after Ned's death. She is numb, prone to outbreaks of rage when pushed and there is this overwhelming sense of disorientation. Along with Sandor they are a pair of lost souls wandering the riverlands, essentially aimlessly. ...

The sense of alienation becomes even more apparent in the village. ... The girl that tried to befriend her is described as a child, even though they are the same age. The simple joys of play and companionship are not enough balm for her wounds, the happy delusions of childhood are lost for her.

I don't think revenge is anyhting more than a crutch to Arya... What emerges is the need to belong, of profound unbreakable bonds and self-loathing for allowing herself to be victimized and failure to save her family. Like she holds Sandor responsible for not saving her mother, unfathomable as it may seem I believe she holds herself responsible for her mother and her father and her brothers.

Nymeria stands as what Arya wants to be. Powerful, in control of her fate and enjoying the unquestioning devotion and loyalty of her pack. So, there is an observable difference between her and her brothers in regard to their direwolves. Robb, Jon and Bran, at one point or another, and while feeling the allure, struggle with their nature. Arya embraces the wolf without reservation, revelling in it.

This is an important factor to consider. Arya is the most self-reliant of all the Starks, maybe even more of a natural survivor than Jon Snow. And yet, looking at her story there is so much loneliness. Robb and Sansa and Bran all have their periods of isolation, but they do not seem to have a solitary nature. Jon and Arya seem to take after Eddard in this regard - they sense that its them alone, against the world. In Sansa's recollections, we see that she led a coterie of friends in Winterfell - back when she was the alpha female of the young female cohort there. Arya does not seem to have had real friends - Jon and Bran were brothers, and she made many acquantances and temporary friendships with random people (highborn or lowborn). But is there any mention of a best friend, a companion her own age ? No. That in itself is unusual. However, I do not get the feeling that it was all by choice - Arya was not included in Sansa's social circle, not unless she accepted a lesser / submissive role in it. It was a condition of belonging she could not accept, so she was something of an outcast among them. So, was hers a lonely life to begin with ?

Of course, with the start the war the death of her family, and her refugee wanderings, her isolation multiplies exponentially. People in her life are always leaving or dying; by the time she reaches Braavos, she may have convinced herself there is no point in making attachments to anyone. This is one part of the FM's eventual hold on her, as they play on her desire to fit in, to belong to a pack.

As well, as you point out, Arya blames herself, scorning her own supposed weakness every bit as much as she scorns it in others. Truth be told, she is someone with phenomenal abilities and inner strength, but in light of her misfortunes, she does not see it that way. It is always not enough for her - not enough to save her father, or mother, or brothers - she is filled with an iron resolve to never let herself be "weak" again. This too leads her into the arms of the FM, seeking after the means to kill her enemies / avenge her family, which is to say she wishes to extinguish all vulnerabilities she might have*.

(*I'm not sure how many of you would be familiar with the WW2-setting Blackhawk comics, and the character Domino, but she was a femme fatale & Nazi assassin, but driven to it by the loss of a loved one, and a vow that she would never let herself be weak again. Seems to have much in common with Arya's story in that respect.)

(just an Other)

It appears Arya has unwittingly engineered her mother's resurrestion from start to finish. She wrung the vow from Beric Dandarion that he would reunite her with her mother and as Nymeria she fished her body form the river, preserved it and left it for Dondarion to find. And Catelyn did rise and feed and run with the outlaws. ... A child's longing for her mother led to the rise of a spirit of vengeance.

This brings up another aspect of Arya Stark - that of the supernatural. Obviously, she is a warg, but we've seen in all discussions of her connection with death the possibility that she may be something more than just a Stark with unusual abilities. She may be destined to act as a harbinger of death / agent of the Many Faced God, whether willingly chosen or not. The Ghost of High heart feared Arya, and the way death precedes her, surrounds her, and follows her may mean she is marked for some special destiny. Perhaps her exhortation of her mothers corpse to rise actually acted as a sort of "necromancy" - an alternative explanation for Lady Stoneheart that would diminish the role of Beric / Thoros & Rhillor. Perhaps like many suspect with regard to Melisandre's "shadow baby", there is something more sinister behind it. Of course, Jaqen and the FM worship death, so what would they do if faced with someone who seems to embody it ? (More on this later on.)

(Lyanna Stark)

Further, in this case, I think Arya's and Sansa's gender is an added difficulty for them, due to the lack of training the girls seem to have got. Cat stands out as a woman who by a trick of fate got a boy's education, but somehow she does't find it necessary to bestow that on her daughters, perhaps because she is convinced nothing will happen to her other three sons and that the girls will just end up being married to some lord and become decorative lady wives.

I would not say Cat got a "boys" education. By necessity she got a first-born's education, but that is all. Her mother had died, so she was suddenly the lady of her father's house. Catelyn has a forceful personality, but her education is actually fairly typical for a noble lady. She does not have any military education at all, and there is no indication she feels she's missing out by lacking these skills. (Neither does Cersei Lannister for that matter, but Cersei resents her lack of it only in the sense that it is a barrier to her having power.) Catalyn has courage, but as Brienne puts it, "a woman's courage" - interesting choice of character to point this out, because Brienne actually is a woman who received a "boys" education (namely that connected with fighting / warfare).

As it relates to Sansa and Arya, one cannot blame Eddard and Catelyn for throwing an obstacle in their path. In conventional terms, Sansa was the one with the outstanding skill set, the one poised for greatness. Arya was given a "girl's" education as well, but it did not suit her, especially not the southron style. Eddard did not set out to prepare Arya for a warrior role, and truth be told, why would he? None could have expected a devastating war, where every Stark child basically ends up fending for themselves, with their parents dead. Both Stark parents had some dreams for Arya, but conventional dreams. I think though that Eddard could see she was not that sort of girl, and I think he was more willing to allow her to cross those lines. He did not intend to train her in arms, or else she would have been training alongside Bran and Jon and Robb, but when confronted by the fact she was going that route anyway, he allowed / arranged it. I doubt Catelyn would have allowed it, despite knowing Arya's "warrior" personality.

[Lummel]

Does anybody have any clue why there is zero interaction between Arya and the other accolytes? Is there a point to it or did Martin simply forgot. Though I suppose even introductions would be a trial. "Hi, I'm no one" "How are you? I'm no one, too" "Did you notice, how no one snores?" "He does?" "Not him, the other no one" "no, you're lying" ...

I think for exactly the reasons you touch on from your third sentence. How can you have social interaction if you are trying to extinguish your identity? If you interact as in the lying game then either you are playing a part or you have to suspect that the other is playing a part. Surrendering, better said killing the identity is part of the process of becoming no-one. Or to put it another way we have no way of knowing if the kindly old man is kindly, old or a man - so on what basis could you have a conversation with that servant of the god of many faces?

Commitment equals death?

I think so, I think this is a common theme across a few of the institutions in ASOIAF - the Faceless Men and the kingsguard at the most extreme, but the night's watch also, possibly the citadel too. Commitment to service requires the death of the individual in those cases, the surrender of the will or right to make decisions based on your own values. The kingsgaurd obeys orders not because they believe them to be morally right but because they are orders from the accepted authority, the faceless man doesn't decide who lives or who dies but submits to the will of god (as conveniently expressed through large sums of money or other valuables).

That's all well and good but there is a risk of wilful blindness about the purpose and role of the organisation - if you have swapped individual judgement for submission and service of a higher cause or authority you don't have a point of perspective to evaluate what the faceless men, kingsguard or night's watch are about, if they are good, fit for purpose or moral. If you do so - like Jaime - then you are violating the social expectations of your society.

...As for Waif, I would feel much better if when people said she is a warning they added that they mean so on symbolical level because everything else sounds ableist and brings my brain to a screeching halt.

Waif will never be able to have children due to what her stepmom did to her but she can do magic, she knows poisons (and by extension, healing), she is an important member of the best assassin group in the world, has immense recourses at her disposal, can we not pity her...

We can because she doesn't have immense resources at her disposal - she is disabled by becoming a servant of the house of black and white. Like Tyrion who finds that raw life is full of possibilities the waif has only service. If service requires her to do something that damages people she loved or act for causes she considers immoral she has to do it - she has no ability to apply those resources for anything that she might want to do, she has no right even to want to do anything. Wants are irrelevant, there is only service for her. She would have more agency outside the house of black and white no matter what her physical condition.

For me the waif's story is a folk tale of the 'be careful what you wish for' type. Everybody apart from the house of black and white in that story ends up loosing. Although admittedly they loose because they were trying to do what they wanted and seeking to benefit themselves. Ideally one hopes that through judgement some middle ground might be available between the tragedy of the commons and submission to authority. Urgh, that's enough optimism for one week!

[Pod The Impaler]

AFFC

Some general commentary on Braavos:

Braavos definitely has the feel of both Venice and Amsterdam. Maybe a touch of the Hanseatic cities as well.

One interesting thing about Braavos is the way they respect just about every deity / religion they have ever come across; each has its place and is allowed to operate there. There is a weird contrast with another place that also has many gods - Vaes Dothrakh. In Vaes Dothrakh, there is recognition of the many religions in the world, but there the gods are broken (symbolic of how the Dothraki broke their worshippers).

When it comes to the ancient stories of The Titan Of Braavos being "fed" highborn girls, I am not sure this is fiction. Old Nan's story may reflect a warped account of something that might have actually been taking place. The highborn girls in this case would be those of pure Valyrian blood. After all, Braavos was made by those who were rebels and escapees from Valyria, and Valyria was kept in its lofty position by the use of powerful magic. So, perhaps to be protected against Valyria with magic of their own, and in keeping with the principle that only death can pay for life, the Braavosi were long ago sacrificing captured maidens of Valyrian blood ? I wouldn't rule it out.

(Rapsie)

He then offers her to return to Westeros, but notably to unsafe destinations and not the Wall where her last known living relative is, and dearest brother Jon Snow. Likewise she is not offered Bravo training so that she can learn the skills she desires. She is only offered worse choices to staying with them so that in many ways their offer is a falsehood that is drawing her closer to them. He offers that she can go home and yet he knows she no longer has a home as it has been destroyed. Indeed it is evident through out the chapter that this is the place where she has felt the safest, been the best fed etc, since leaving KL. They are offering her undesirable alternatives to being with them, which only makes her want to stay more. In a very gentle way, they have made her afraid of being cast out, so she clings to them all the more.

There is also a sinister element to the idea that she is free to leave at the beginning of the chapter, as there are the makings of a turning point after she throws away her belongings ... Being a novice in other places in the books denotes that one can still change one’s mind, however it is a step further down a path which has a point of no return. ... Once a certain level is reached, leaving is not an option, without serious repercussions.

Yet this chapter very strongly seems to reassert that she is Arya of House Stark. She realizes that despite all the names she went by, she was always Arya. Her strongly recalls her mother and father and siblings. She evens thinks of Hot Pie. She is not and never truly can be “no one”. Even when she hears the story of the slave, she is indignity that it should have been the masters that were killed. Her sense of social justice is immediately present. Indeed Arya is a very judgmental character and yet the FM are without judgment, they do as they are willed to irrespective of morality.

I agree the cold cup is the final stage, but I do wonder how many FM secrets (the face being placed over hers etc, you can learn before they are not going to let you go without a price. Also the Coin, makes me think of the Greyjoys and paying the Iron Price.

(just an Other)

This ties in to the question of the price of power. Their answer is that ultimate power demands the ultimate price, one they are willing to pay. After all power is not something one possesses, but rather something that possesses oneself.

Do we take them on their word for it? Well, nobody is that good (or that bad) and their motto "Valar Dohaerys" and Jaqen suggest that the god makes demands as well as answer prayers. Still, I do think that this is something they strive for and this kind of belief offers great room to rationalize other pursuits.

Does Arya buy into it? Eleven year-old, black and white and practically oriented Arya cannot quite conceive it, as this philosophy is completely alien to anything she has experienced before. ...

I think we can safely assume that the KOM understands Arya better than she does herself. He knows her agenda, but I think allows it as long as it keeps her moving forward and is aware that indoctrination does not occur overnight. At the same time he is firm on their purpose and slowly exposes to Arya to elements of their faith that she can compare to her own experiences with the aim that she will come to the same conclusions herself.

In the midst of all this there is Needle. Practising wit it, prompted the greatest confrontation between Arya and the KOM and getting rid of all her stuff is what got her to be accepted as a novice. It was also a moment of crisis for Arya about what she really wanted and what she is willing to give up to get it. The jury is out. Arya does not get rid of Needle, but doesn't leave the temple either. She puts is aside. The jury is also out on whether the FM, actually know that she stashed it and if so, why they gave her her robe knowing her still present reservations? A possible answer is that they expect her to let go of it eventually and putting it away is good enough at the current stage. The other possible answer is that Arya can in fact keep secrets from the FM.

The FM are cunning in this, certainly - the Kindly Man knows how to push Arya's buttons, to convince her to take a certain path by implying she is not strong enough to take it. This speaks to them knowing a great deal about Arya's personality.

Arya is still, at her core, being Arya. Her idealism and sense of justice are hard to wear down. Her social justice may actually fit very well with the background / history of the FM, but in terms of commitment, she is still not commited to them 100%. She is still Arya of House Stark, and I think they want either want her to give that identity up, or if she cannot, they may do her harm. Death cults are not known for letting people go their own way, and groups of assassins even less so. Combine both and you get a group that would definitely snuff out its own members, if only to protect its secrets.

Arya may have already passed the point of no return with them, in ADWD when they change her face for the mission against the insurance merchant. I cannot imagine that technique they'd be willing to share and then let someone walk out on the organization. However, they may be patient, since as was already said, indoctrination does not happen overnight, and they should more suspicious if it seemed to. That being said, we do not know for certain if they have figured out she is a warg, nor that she has hidden Needle.

Also, it should be noted that the term "cold cup" may not be literal, but rather symbolic of choosing to live in service of Death. If the Holy Grail can be the cup of life, can't the "cold cup" concept) be a sort of Anti-Grail, bringing death, not life?

(Ragnorak)

In this I think the KM is sincere. The difference between giving the gift of life and the gift of death seems like something central to this faith. His concerns about Arya choosing as a child echo Ned's concern (and Benjen's) about Jon choosing the NW while still so young. If he is being truthful about not thinking Arya can make the sacrifices needed that raises the question of why he let's her stay and continue to progress in her training. He says the iron coin paid for her passage but I doubt that's all it means. There has to be an explicit endorsement that accompanies the coin beyond an invitation to a job fair. Is it the coin that lets her continue? Is the free choice involved in the future sacrifices she must make so important that they'll abide by any free choice until a potential fails or chooses otherwise? Jumping ahead for a moment I imagine many would never pass the blindness test or successfully pull of their first hit so there's inherent filters along the way.

(Odon)

Prior recommendation. Arya has the iron coin - ostensibly her ticket across the Narrow Sea but actually a message from Jaqen H'ghar to his fellow Faceless Men. Take a look at this one, she has the potential to be one of us. Jaqen H'ghar would have noted Arya's bravery (facing down Rorge, and later saving them from the fire despite the urge to save herself first), prior training, plus the discipline to keep up with it despite the lack of a teacher (her waterdancing practice in the godswood), determination and discrimination (the death list), ruthlessness (agreeing to the 'three wishes' deal), and most importantly her cunning (forcing Jaqen to free the prisoners by naming him as her third wish).

(Lummel)

Perhaps they believe that contingency is a manifestation of the will of God, if Arya of House Stark was brought in on the incoming tide from Westeros to their house it must be the will of God. The only thing stopping them from chucking her out must be the suspicion that they can or should make use of her even if they feel uncertain about this on account of her gender. I note that nothing he offers her even gives her a moments pause - is that chance or judgement on his part?

(Ragnorak)

I can't help but wonder whether or not the Faceless Men can sense magical power in Arya. Mel claims she can sense the power in Jon. Borroq and Jon can sense each other as well. This is probably best left for when Arya starts to be called a wolf girl, but if the Kindly Man can sense some magical power in Arya would it matter? There is a clear sense of magic at play in the House of Black and White, Arya does have a brief wolf dream this chapter, and we get the line All sorcery comes at a cost, child. The Stark warging seems to be natural and not something bought through sacrifice as that line implies (without going into ancient speculation about the Starks, the CotF, and the Pact.) Thinking ahead, when Arya gets her first face there is a bit of similarity to the second life memories of a skinchanger embodied in the face. That magical similarity. the upcoming wolf girl nickname and its connection to her bloodthirsty desire to kill that the FM say she must let go of all connect back to this chapter.

Well, yes, it seems to me that Arya Stark may be considered a special case by the FM. As stated earlier, she has demonstrated a remarkable ablity to deal out death, and survive harsh conditions, at a very young age. She is a prodigy of sorts, so it would stand to reason that if someone like Jaqen saw such special talent in her, he'd present her the opportunity to join their order, for the order's benefit (hence the coin). Thus the coin would be a sort of favourable reference for her, so maybe they would devote quite a bit more effort to her training than they would the average recruit.

There is also the supernatural aspect to this - perhaps her supernatural conection with death is what they seek. They are religious after all, and might consider Arya "blessed", a focus of the Many Faced God's divine power. Maybe this makes her more valuable, more sought after. It may even mean that her coming to them was (in their opinion) pre-ordained. In this scenario, there is a very good chance that they sense the powerful magic within Arya Stark, much as the Ghost of High Heart did.

After all, R'Hillor has its "Azor Ahai reborn", so what of Arya is that equivalent for the faithful of the many Faced God - a harbinger, an avatar, a prophet - and instrument of divine will ? This opens up all kinds of weird possibilities. They may be more tolerant of her interpreteing / manifesting the MFG's will in her own ways. They may be looking to her as a future leader, not just a follower.

The Azor Ahai / Rhillor comparison is also funny in one other way - perhaps she is preordained, a "chosen one" of the MFG, but the FM feel they can guide her or force prophecy to act according to their ends, much in the same way as Melisandre guides / manipulates Stannis. She believes Stannis is the AA, but what if he is merely the path to revealing the true AA? (An often-talked-about theory.) Likewise, what if the FM believe Arya's role is to be guided by them, when in fact she will be the thing that reinterprets their doctrines and goals; a force they recognize as meniofesting the will of the MFG, but not a force their organization can control ? Perhaps they simply give up on imposing constraints, and let the Many Face God work its divine will through her.

(Odon)

There's no mention of a father being killed by a bravo; it's an embellishment Cat has added on her own, along with her determination to slit the throat of the man responsible. Regardless of whether she's Arya, Cat or "no-one", her passion to avenge herself on those who killed her father hasn't diminished. She's insolent to the bravos and even produces a blade, despite warning Sam against even carrying a sword. This seems rather reckless compared to the Mouse of Harrenhall; while the threat makes the bravos back off, one can't help wondering if Cat is so wrapped up in her new identity that she's regarding a bravo as equivalent to a Lannister or a Frey soldier.

(just an Other)

It is also interesting how she tells the FM herself, wihtout any prompting or questioning. She also tells that the murder was perpetrated by Arya of house Stark, while at the same time it was told in the third person. She also kept palying it in her head on her way, wondering about their reaction. In some way, I believe it is part of her ongoing ambivalence regarding the house of Black and White and ties in with her keeping Needle and other secrets from the FM. I also think that she was testing the FM to understand what they are really about, which she can't quite grasp the theory of, so she is trying to test them to see what they want from her and what are her limits within them.

Once again, I see this this is Arya just being Arya. She has an avenging nature, and it gets worked into what she does. Her confrontation with the Bravos is as much a manifestation of her natural inclination to command as much as fight - much as she used to berate guards in Kings landing, or boss around Gendry and Hot Pie. At the same time, she is intelligent and strong, and for this reason she decides to tell the Kindly Man she has killed Dareon. Partly because she is cunning enough to realize she could not lie to him successfully about it, but partly also because she is a northern girl and her tradition is to take responsibility for her actions, especially as it concerns killing / execution. ANd yes, it may also be a test of the FM's reactions to it.)

(Brashcandy)

"Yesterday I ate herring with the whores, but within the year I’ll be having emperor crab with courtesans."

This contrast is important, because in addition to the whores, the courtesans of Braavos are another group of women whom Arya seems to regard with some implicit admiration or at least neutral understanding. There is a strong sense of matriarchal potential in this chapter, vested in these kinds of non-traditional, "aberrant" occupations, and reinforced by the founding of Braavos itself.

(Contrast - Pretty Pia. Importance: Shows ambition, placing self, above duty and honour. Dareon's cowardice Valar Morghulis, desertion valar dohaeris )

I would partially disagree here. While I don't think Arya is the sort of devalue commoners and rough folk (whores included), I do not think that some kind of class or gender solidarity was her motivation. (Compare it with her attitude re: Pretty Pia.)

I think her issue with Dareon, her judgment of him stemmed from her distaste for his attitude. Dareon's statement is not about women, as much as it shows he placed his ambition and personal safety above duty and honour. Arya's Tully side says "...duty, honour" and her Stark side lives by that code in absolute terms. Being a northern girl, the Night's Watch is not some abstaract thing to her, doubly so because Jon is a member of it. Dareon swore an oath and betrayed it, and she knows what Starks do to oathbreakers.

As well, by perverse coindcidence Dareon's actions even offend her newfound Faceless Men values: Valar morghulis - all men must die, but Dareon is too much a coward to face his; Valar dohaeris - all men must serve, but Dareon refuses to serve anyone but himself. So really, as a Night's Watch deserter, meeting Arya is pretty much the worst case scenario for him.

(Alberich)

In medieval Germany existed a punishment named “Reichsacht”. This punishment had been used against criminals, who had done a serious crime and escaped the justice. Was the Reichsacht spoken against a person, this person lost all rights and everyone, not only officials, was allowed to kill this person (and to plunder the corpse). I ever imagined Nightwatch deserters like persons, to that was called the Reichsacht. So in Westeros (not necessary in Bravos) Arya’s deed had been legal.

The following idea perhaps is crackpot, but… Arya in my opinion saves Sam’s life ... So she has cheated the many faced god for Sam’s life. Jaquen teaches Arya that only dead can pay for life. So she searches for the most worthless person she can find and sacrifices him as compensation for Sam’s life. The life of the disloyal Nightwatch man for the life of the loyal Nightwatch man.

The Reichsacht concept sounds like a forerunner of the "bounty hunter" idea, that anyone can bring a transgressor to justice, and receive a reward for serving the greater good. As for the other theory, it is interesting - perhaps more proof of her supernatural nature, as she inadvertently balances the scales of life and death.

(Odon)

"... by the word of Arya of the House Stark, Queen of the North, First of Her Dreaded Name, Wielder of Needle, Ghost of Harrenhal, Blood Child, Night Wolf of the Great Pack, Shadowcat of the Braavos, Dark Sister of Winterfell, Mistress of Whispers, Lady of Vengeance, Doom of the West, Harbinger of Death and Prophet of She-Of-Many-Names, I do sentence you to die for the crimes of desertion, oathbreaking, and using cheap chat-up lines."

:drunk:

(Lyanna Stark)

"This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savoury smell, but if eaten it produces a violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

Arya chewed her lip. "Would it work on dogs?"

I like to think of this as symbolism, but almost foreshadowing in reverse.

Arya was the "mouse" who got a taste of basilisk blood (Jaqen's ability to kill for her), and attacked the lions (overthrew the Lannisters constrol of Harrenhal), which was a pretty mad plan overall.

[The Sleeper]

just an Other, I just googled the quote, since it conveys a pretty basic message there might have been several people stating this without knowing about each other.

Yeah I think it´s Tyrion´s misconception. Qhorin´s commitment meant giving up his life, and I agree that´s what made it important (at least inside the story). I think Martin also views death differently than most people, but I´m not quite clear on what his view is on the willingness to sacrifice oneself, which is appearently a theme. :dunno: He probably just wants us to think about this.

Maybe commitment brings meaning to life, while (just) keeping possibilities open doesn´t, and one will eventually die just the same? Valar Morghulis.

Tthe context of that exchange is somewhat different. They are discussing Bran's reccuperation and there is a bit of subtext in that exchange. Jaime has an ulterior motive: he is hoping that Bran won't wake up. Tyrion is tweaking his brother nose, letting him know that he knows and as a genuine imp is fascinated by the prospect of turmoil.

It can be argued that the exchange is in the context of the subject we were discussing. Jaime makes his case on the ground's that Bran's life as a cripple will be pointless. Tyrion argues the opposite, on behalf of the "cripples and broken things". As it turns out Jaime needs to find purpose to keep on living when he loses his hand and Tyrion spends the next three books trying to prove his point.

The question as it reverts back to Arya, is very simply this: what is she going to do with herself?

I think for exactly the reasons you touch on from your third sentence. How can you have social interaction if you are trying to extinguish your identity? If you interact as in the lying game then either you are playing a part or you have to suspect that the other is playing a part. Surrendering, better said killing the identity is part of the process of becoming no-one. Or to put it another way we have no way of knowing if the kindly old man is kindly, old or a man - so on what basis could you have a conversation with that servant of the god of many faces?

This is all true, but there is a current common experience they are going through, that they can relate with eachother: their training. They could play the lying game with eachother. After all, half its purpose is discovering the truth, which could lead over time to initmate knowledge of one another. If anything it could keep them honest. The amtosphere at the temple, though somber hardly appears to be formal. Arya is neither forbidden or encouraged to interact with the other accolytes. Nothing beyond their presence is mentioned. Then of course there is the language barrier for most of the time Arya spends at the temple, their duties don't coincide as they are at different stages of their training and for all we know the situatiion is unique to Arya and the other accolytes do interact with eachother. Coming to think of it, I think the choice is an aesthetic one. Arya's time at the temple is intensely contemplative and introspective. Nothing interrupts it unless it is part of that process. The Kindly Old Man, while certainly being a facade, plays a part in the process as guide, teacher and mentor, the facade chosen no doubt specifically for that purpose. Arya has plant of conversations and interactions with him.

Talking about it, it strikes me, that the personas of Arya's two tutors at the house of black and white have been selected very carefully and deliberately by Martin. The KOM is the personification of the benign and wise teacher and deals with overall guidance, theory and indoctrination. The Waif is the one who deals with the practical aspect in Arya's education. They learn each other's language, play the lying game together and concoct poisons together. The Waif is probably the single individual Arya spends most of her time with. And she appears as someone who Arya won't feel threatened by, someone she will even feel protective for (she reminds Arya of Weasel and Arya doesn't vent her anger on her because she looks so small and starved) and in the end someone Arya may even idenitfy with. In short as a potential companion and a fellow traveller on the journey Arya is in.

I think so, I think this is a common theme across a few of the institutions in ASOIAF - the Faceless Men and the kingsguard at the most extreme, but the night's watch also, possibly the citadel too. Commitment to service requires the death of the individual in those cases, the surrender of the will or right to make decisions based on your own values. The kingsgaurd obeys orders not because they believe them to be morally right but because they are orders from the accepted authority, the faceless man doesn't decide who lives or who dies but submits to the will of god (as conveniently expressed through large sums of money or other valuables).

That's all well and good but there is a risk of wilful blindness about the purpose and role of the organisation - if you have swapped individual judgement for submission and service of a higher cause or authority you don't have a point of perspective to evaluate what the faceless men, kingsguard or night's watch are about, if they are good, fit for purpose or moral. If you do so - like Jaime - then you are violating the social expectations of your society.

Why does commitment and serving a purpose automatically refers to institutions or organizations or can't be a matter of individual choice? After all the singer was commited to tasting the Dornishman's Wife. Since you mentioned it though, there is also a pattern of organizations of being corrupted and losing sight of their purpose and becoming impediments to individuals with in them trying to pursues that purpose. Jon tries to protect the realms of men and the Night's Watch stands in the way. Likewise Selmy, once discarded sought to find a place where he could feel he could live up to the ideals of chivalry and honor he aspires to.

It all comes down to making choices and sticking with them, with the caveat, that failure to make a choice inevitably leads to someone else making it.

[DrunkSister]

We can because she doesn't have immense resources at her disposal - she is disabled by becoming a servant of the house of black and white. Like Tyrion who finds that raw life is full of possibilities the waif has only service. If service requires her to do something that damages people she loved or act for causes she considers immoral she has to do it - she has no ability to apply those resources for anything that she might want to do, she has no right even to want to do anything. Wants are irrelevant, there is only service for her. She would have more agency outside the house of black and white no matter what her physical condition.

For me the waif's story is a folk tale of the 'be careful what you wish for' type. Everybody apart from the house of black and white in that story ends up loosing. Although admittedly they loose because they were trying to do what they wanted and seeking to benefit themselves. Ideally one hopes that through judgement some middle ground might be available between the tragedy of the commons and submission to authority. Urgh, that's enough optimism for one week!

If a person in our world who holds immense power tries to use it for their own ends (a president, a head of corporation, a judge, a general, a cardinal) what do we think of these people? Imagine if they wanted to prevent justice be done to the ones they love? Or if they wanted to use their recourses to help their families get on in the world? They are tyrants, loose cannons, nepotist, corrupt, evil!

Service must come with power IMO or power becomes corrupt.

What should Waif do to be truly powerful in her own name? Off people at will? Use her magic and concoctions to con people or bind them to her will for her own ends? :stillsick:

Or if we imagine that she has never joined FM, what would she do? Enjoy the trappings of power, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, adopt children to love them...

That doesn't make people happy unconditionally. How many people have left all that to serve a god?

What really stops me from thinking that it is the FM fault that everybody but they loose is this: isn't poisoning persecuted in civil courts? I can't imagine that Bravos doesn't have laws against it.

Yet father went to FM to make a bargain. Why, was he trying to keep it hushed up? Was he being blackmailed with dirty secrets of his own?

Something is not right there.

This doesn't mean that I think FM are right for Arya, or that Arya should really become no one.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Does anybody have any clue why there is zero interaction between Arya and the other accolytes? Is there a point to it or did Martin simply forgot. Though I suppose even introductions would be a trial. "Hi, I'm no one" "How are you? I'm no one, too" "Did you notice, how no one snores?" "He does?" "Not him, the other no one" "no, you're lying" ...

:lol: A Monty Python remake of ASOIAF could make use of this dialogue!

Seriously, though, I believe that there is a purpose: the accolytes are not no-ones yet. They are (mostly) young people. Having them interact, sharing experiences, feelings and ideas it would make it too easy to create emotional bonds between them. A no-one can have no friends and people he/she cares for... Also, I think that it is essential that the accolytes pass each stage of their training "unprepared", without help and/or "cheats". Having friends within the order would take that away.

------------

"I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life is duty".

I like this quote because it expresses and highlights better what I had in mind. It places life as joy and life as duty in juxtaposition, which I believe is very much wrong. "Valar dohaeris" takes a stand for the second, so IMO it's too much one-sided. I used the song "the Dornishman's wife" as the opposite side that evaluates the worthiness of life in seeking joy.

As I see it, life includes both of them and more. Limiting life to either, takes away a lot. Actually, I believe that people can serve better and more wholeheartedly a purpose when they expect that it would make life better (bring joy) to them and/or to the people they love... And respectively, people can find joy in serving a purpose that they believe in, doing it in their own terms.

So, for me, it's not so much about commitment. It's more about rejecting existing aspects of life itself, and thus making it hollow in general.

[The Sleeper]

"I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life is duty".

I like this quote because it expresses and highlights better what I had in mind. It places life as joy and life as duty in juxtaposition, which I believe is very much wrong. "Valar dohaeris" takes a stand for the second, so IMO it's too much one-sided. I used the song "the Dornishman's wife" as the opposite side that evaluates the worthiness of life in seeking joy.

As I see it, life includes both of them and more. Limiting life to either, takes away a lot. Actually, I believe that people can serve better and more wholeheartedly a purpose when they expect that it would make life better (bring joy) to them and/or to the people they love... And respectively, people can find joy in serving a purpose that they believe in, doing it in their own terms.

So, for me, it's not so much about commitment. It's more about rejecting existing aspects of life itself, and thus making it hollow in general.

It does appear a very grim statement about life and it certainly can be, but it doesn't need to. The first part is true if the purpose served is something grand and affects a lot of people, but it seems to me it can include smaller and more mundane or personal. Like raising a family, travelling, or even tasting the Dornishman's Wife. I see it as a statement that people need to live for something, though it may be taking it beyond the scope of the motto, particularly in the context of the FM.

There is another aspect to it, however. There is a big bad world that makes its own demands and people find themselves either adrift or being forced to make choices they do not particularly want to. Like the Starks say "Winter is coming". As such, "Valar Dohaeris" may not be viewed as an expectation or a mandate, but merely as a realization of how things are.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It does appear a very grim statement about life and it certainly can be, but it doesn't need to. The first part is true if the purpose served is something grand and affects a lot of people, but it seems to me it can include smaller and more mundane or personal. Like raising a family, travelling, or even tasting the Dornishman's Wife. I see it as a statement that people need to live for something, though it may be taking it beyond the scope of the motto, particularly in the context of the FM.

There is another aspect to it, however. There is a big bad world that makes its own demands and people find themselves either adrift or being forced to make choices they do not particularly want to. Like the Starks say "Winter is coming". As such, "Valar Dohaeris" may not be viewed as an expectation or a mandate, but merely as a realization of how things are.

I could agree with this view but I'm afraid the context within which "valar dohaeris" has been used so far, does not allow generous interpretations...

[The Sleeper]

I could agree with this view but I'm afraid the context within which "valar dohaeris" has been used so far, does not allow generous interpretations...

I suppose so, at least in terms of their own accolytes and members. So far, at least, the FM don't seem particularly judgemental of what other people serve (as long as they do them favors, anyway).