Becoming No One: Rereading Arya IV

[Odon]

I wasn't refering to why she did it, but in what capacity.

That's what I was referring to. I think she was acting as a member of House Stark, even if she never refers to it. e.g. "In the name of Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, Bastard of Lord Eddard Stark, Warger of Ghost, Musser of Hair, Giver of Needle, by the word of Arya of the House Stark, Queen of the North, First of Her Dreaded Name, Wielder of Needle, Ghost of Harrenhal, Blood Child, Night Wolf of the Great Pack, Shadowcat of the Braavos, Dark Sister of Winterfell, Mistress of Whispers, Lady of Vengeance, Doom of the West, Harbinger of Death and Prophet of She-Of-Many-Names, I do sentence you to die for the crimes of desertion, oathbreaking, and using cheap chat-up lines." Would she have done it if her brother wasn't Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and Dareon directly defied his authority?

[The Sleeper]

That's what I was referring to. I think she was acting as a member of House Stark, even if she never refers to it. e.g. "In the name of Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, Bastard of Lord Eddard Stark, Warger of Ghost, Musser of Hair, Giver of Needle, by the word of Arya of the House Stark, Queen of the North, First of Her Dreaded Name, Wielder of Needle, Ghost of Harrenhal, Blood Child, Night Wolf of the Great Pack, Shadowcat of the Braavos, Dark Sister of Winterfell, Mistress of Whispers, Lady of Vengeance, Doom of the West, Harbinger of Death and Prophet of She-Of-Many-Names, I do sentence you to die for the crimes of desertion, oathbreaking, and using cheap chat-up lines." Would she have done it if her brother wasn't Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, and Dareon directly defied his authority?

I kind of think she would, though if she did it because the lord commander happened to be her brother, it would point to personal slight and loyalty. The way she is clinging to the legacy of house Stark is personal and internal, as part of where she came from and not as an existing institution on whose authority she acts, as opposed to Dany who proclaims authority on behalf and herself as the head of house Targaryen. Arya acts according to an internalized set of principles instilled by her family, as actual physical beings and rolemodels rather than as a house.

[Alberich]

..."In the name of Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, Bastard of Lord Eddard Stark, Warger of Ghost, Musser of Hair, Giver of Needle, by the word of Arya of the House Stark, Queen of the North, First of Her Dreaded Name, Wielder of Needle, Ghost of Harrenhal, Blood Child, Night Wolf of the Great Pack, Shadowcat of the Braavos, Dark Sister of Winterfell, Mistress of Whispers, Lady of Vengeance, Doom of the West, Harbinger of Death and Prophet of She-Of-Many-Names, I do sentence you to die for the crimes of desertion, oathbreaking, and using cheap chat-up lines."...

:bowdown:

[Lyanna Stark]

Before we have noted that some of Arya's chapters can be amost circular, that they start where they end (last chapter, it was her prayer that started and ended the chapter). This chapter starts in darkness with Arya waking "before the sun came up" and it ends with her in the temple in the dark. A day with crisp sunshine was inbetween, but it's framed by darkness.

The mother:

Further, this chapter brings further evidence of Arya's attachment to her mother. She has witnessed her father's death more directly, yet it is her mother's death that constantly haunts her. A mother is also what Arya lacks the most. The Kindly Man can seem like a father figure, but Brusco, his daughters, the waif etc. are no mother figures. There are on the other hand quite a few matriarchal motifs in Braavos itself, but Arya, she is to a degree defined by her longing for her mother, up to and including calling herself Cat as if she could hold on to some of her mother by taking her name as her own. It's interesting also in light of how Tyrion and Jon Snow are defined in part by their missing mothers. Tyrion with his dysfunctional relationship with women and Jon Snow with his constant wallowing on how his mother could give him up, whether she was a whore and his wish to find her one day. There's also Dany who is trying herself to recreate a family by taking on the role of a mother, but a mother without a "trueborn" child of her own.

I think it was during the Tyrion re-read it was discussed that there are a lot of different father figures and various models for father - son relationships, but that mothers and mother figures are rarer in that regards. Lots of the main POVs are motherless. Arya has now joined this motherless bunch. It will be interesting to keep an eye out for further references to the mother figure in general and Catelyn specifically within Arya's chapters. A lot of the times on this forum, people seem to labour under the misapprehension that Arya did not care for Cat and that Cat did not care for Arya and that their relationship was distant or even cool, but I think Arya's own chapters contradict that strongly. Arya may not have a natural affinity for toeing the line and enjoying ladylike things, but she was definitely Cat's daughter, which was affirmed by Cat herself (in one of Sansa's very first chapter in AGOT: Cat thought it was laughable that Arya wasn't hers).

We also see Cat distraught at the thought of Sansa and Arya in Kings Landing, and she refuses to even think the thought that Arya will be dead. Robb even accuses her of lying to herself when she does not want Jon Snow named heir. She brings forward Sansa and Arya, but Robb doesn't think Arya can be alive, yet Cat, even when dead, never stops trying to find her daughters. She released Jaime for Arya and Sansa, even if it was a fool's hope. If anything, I think it highlights how strong the relationship between Cat and her daughters was.

There is also the commentary on Lysa, which ties into Cat:

"Not in the Vale. The little lord's kept us out of it, same as his mother did."

Same as his mother did. The lady of the Vale was her own mother's sister. "Lady Lysa," she said, "is she...?"

"...dead?" finished the freckled boy whose head was full of courtesans. "Aye. Murdered by her own singer."

"Oh." It's nought to me. Cat of the Canals never had an aunt. She never did.

Even if she didn't know Lysa, it is yet another link to her mother that has been severed for ever.

Cat is Arya and Arya is Cat:

This was brought up before and I think it's very true: Arya models Cat on herself, and of all her identities, Cat is closest to her own identity. Which is probably also the reason she is happier as Cat than as the mouse of Harrenhal, Salty or Lumpyhead or any of her other alter egos. However, she has also changed, and I found it illuminating how she can notices people lying, a bit like Sansa can discern who was Littlefinger's guy among the Lord Declarant, Arya's powers of perception are growing:

They bought clams and cockles from her, told her true tales of Braavos and lies about their lives..."

Arya is able to tell that they are telling her lies already.

Courtesans, whores, adult themes.

Arya is surrounded by moon themes, courtesans, whores, bawdy songs, Brea's moonblood, people offering to teach her how to kiss etc. Contrary to earlier in the Riverlands, it seems Arya has a better and more "grown up" understanding of sex than she had when she and Gendry were at the Peach. As of yet, she doesn't seem interested in it herself, or as something she might herself engage in at some point, yet the themes are there, somewhat like they were for Sansa in ACOK, perhaps denoting that Arya is growing up.

Singers and singing.

Interesting discussions about Daeron and Arya's motivations for killing him. I'd like to add another one: Lysa being killed by "her own singer". Singers are definitely getting a bad rep this chapter. Ouch. :P

In general, it seems deeply unlucky to be a singer associated with a colour. Daeron is known as the "Black singer" and we all know what happened to the Blue Bard and Symeon Silvertongue. Although given that, the fate of Marillion wasn't much better, even if he was not associated with a colour! :lol:

Further, we have a LOT of references to various songs and plays. We have the "stupid love song" that probably deals with the fate of Ashara Dayne, we have the plays The Song of the Rhoyne, The Conqueror's Two Wives and The Merchant's Lusty Lady.

The first may be a reference to Nymeria, or even to Tyrion's trip down the Rhoyne, the second to Aegon the Conqueror and perhaps to Daenerys ("Aegon the Conqueror with teats"), and the Merchant's Lusty Lady... perhaps Lysa? Littlefinger is after all not much more than a jumped up merchant.

Other things:

Ships: We have the Brazen Monkey (another Tyrion reference??) Sallador Saan's Valyrian and Mother's Son (which means we know where Saan is at this point in time). The Lady Ushanora was supposed to take Sam, Gilly, Maester Aemon and Daeron to Oldtown.

Mummery:

Merry always claimed the mummers made much better priests than the priests, especially Myrmello

A commentary on how our expectations rule what we see perhaps? Tywin Lannister was careful with managing expectations and appear kingly, using all the trappings of power he could. Dany has to bow to the demand for mummery as well when she dons her floppy ears. Here the fake priest seem more genuine than the real thing, simply because they put on a better show.

We also have Arya repeating what to say about Daeron like a mummer in a show.

She had played this talk out in her head half a hundred times, like a mummer in a show.

EDIT: Amended a few things.

[Lyanna Stark]

A little connect the dots I found to be interesting. Would like to know what you good people make of it (looking at you FireEater! :) )

In the beginning of this chapter, we get this from Arya regarding dreams:

It was the other dream she hated, the one where she had two feet instead of four. In that one she was always looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining and in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog's head would not let her go save her.

Then later, we have this bit regarding the effects of Basilisk blood:

"This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savoury smell, but if eaten it produces a violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

Arya chewed her lip. "Would it work on dogs?"

To me, it seems a clear reference to how Arya wishes she could have made the Hound save her mother by attacking the Freys allied with the Lannisters. It's also a reference to her earlier dream since it's Arya thinking this, not Cat of the Canals.

[Odon]

Well I assume she's thinking of the death of Weese, who had his throat torn out by his own dog thanks to Jaqen H'ghar. At the time Arya assumed he did it with black magic; now she knows how it was done.

That's not to say she may not use this in future. Might be a bit indiscriminate though; I can't see an enraged Hound on this drug rescuing anyone, even Sansa.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh I think it's certain that she is thinking of Weese, but the connection is interesting, as she blames the Hound for not rescuing her mother.

[The Sleeper]

A little connect the dots I found to be interesting. Would like to know what you good people make of it (looking at you FireEater! :) )

In the beginning of this chapter, we get this from Arya regarding dreams:

Then later, we have this bit regarding the effects of Basilisk blood:

To me, it seems a clear reference to how Arya wishes she could have made the Hound save her mother by attacking the Freys allied with the Lannisters. It's also a reference to her earlier dream since it's Arya thinking this, not Cat of the Canals.

In terms of foreshadowing we have a character whose sigil is a mouse who could go mad and attack a lion. Other than that, basilisk blood has the potential of turning a meat course in to a weapon of mass destruction. Suppose, a family, let's call them Freys, sat down to dinner and inexplicalby begun to attack and kill each other, it would look very much afterwards as if the gods had cursed them, wouldn't it?

[Lyanna Stark]

In terms of foreshadowing we have a character whose sigil is a mouse who could go mad and attack a lion. Other than that, basilisk blood has the potential of turning a meat course in to a weapon of mass destruction. Suppose, a family, let's call them Freys, sat down to dinner and inexplicalby begun to attack and kill each other, it would look very much afterwards as if the gods had cursed them, wouldn't it?

Ah yes, I like that. :) This has so much potential!

*runs before Septon Lummel comes in to stomp out all foreshadowing talk*

[bbstark]

I love this chapter! Nice analysis so far.

I also picked up the Cat/Arya themes, and Arya's homage to her mother through her alternate identity. I think that it's more than just grief for her mother, but actual unfinished business. Arya's always had a decent relationship with Ned, but with Cat there was a world of misunderstanding. Her inability to successfully get the kind of approval she wants from her mother results in various manifestations of her mother in her psyche.

Now here's something about the Arya/Cat relationship that confuses me: to what extent has Arya actually grieved over her mother?

I mean in the sense that people need the ceremony of a funeral and the presence and support of witnesses to allow someone to depart from their lives. Though she didn't actually see Ned's beheading, she knows it happened, there's a verifyable body, and the presence of Yoren and his protection could make it count as a funeral. (Though admittedly a shitty one)

However she didn't actually physically see Cat's body unless you count her warg encounter as Nymeria. With respect to her grief, it raises questions, Arya has seen in her dreams what happened to the body, but has she taken that into account and does she actually believe it? If not, the fact that she's bringing up reminders of Cat again and again, could be manifestation of her grief as well as the absence of her mother.

Lyanna Stark, it's interesting that you bring up the lack of mothers in the POVs. It's harder to think of a POV that has a healthy relationship with their mother (probably only Bran and Sansa), than one that doesn't. The Lannister, Martell and Greyjoy kids have a weak to none, relationship with their respective mothers. Some other POVs like Barristan, Arys, and Areoh Hotah are of a less self-reflective nature, and are merely there to mirror events for us, and I can't imagine of Vic ever even thinking of his poor mother. Cat is unique in the sense that while we have many strong women, we only have one in-depth look into one strong mother. (unless I'm forgetting someone, and Cersei doesn't count)

regarding singers

Well I kept being reminded of vermillion while reading about Marillion, they vaguely rhyme and are rather unusual and rare words. Maybe you are supposed to think of the color vermillion ? Or turn vermillion since Marillion is such an infuriating douche?

To me, it seems a clear reference to how Arya wishes she could have made the Hound save her mother by attacking the Freys allied with the Lannisters. It's also a reference to her earlier dream since it's Arya thinking this, not Cat of the Canals.

I actually find the grammatical structure of "would it work?" most interesting. Saying "would it work?" implies entertaining a possibility that is not dependent on time. It struck me that the conditional that she uses might reveal that Arya doesn't truly think of the Hound as being dead.

I know it sounds like I'm grasping at straws, but Arya isn't a character that dwells on the past. In fact she deliberately steers herself from it. Therefore, it doesn't seem consistent that she is speculating about how events in the past could have occured differently.

Is it possible that she isn't thinking "would it have worked on a dog to fight a lion", but "would it work on a mouse to fight a dog?" .

Or a third alternative, she's considering a possible future in which she involves the Hound again "will it work on a dog to fight a lion?".

Her meaning would hinge on her current sentiment regarding Sandor.

[Fire Eater]

A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood.

Catelyn Tully was a mouse or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle.

UnCat is attacking Lannister forces. Arya and her mother share another aspect, being mice.

[Alberich]

Well I assume she's thinking of the death of Weese, who had his throat torn out by his own dog thanks to Jaqen H'ghar. At the time Arya assumed he did it with black magic; now she knows how it was done.

That's not to say she may not use this in future. Might be a bit indiscriminate though; I can't see an enraged Hound on this drug rescuing anyone, even Sansa.

There is another man who likes dogs. He is the husband of “Arya Stark” and likes to hunt woman with dogs. He has destroyed Winterfell and has murdered and tortured a lot of people of Winterfell. And he is the declared enemy of Arya’s beloved half-brother Jon.

He surely is the type of man, Arya would like to kill in a very bloody way… :devil:

Edited: character size.

[Lyanna Stark]

Alberich,

That struck me as well! Arya's comment about how basilisk blood will work on dogs certainly seems to not just refer back to Weese, but also into the future too, and Ramsay Bolton seems like a prime candidate for some basilisk blood action, if you get my drift. :)

(Also, welcome to the thread, always great to see new faces. Don't worry about using English as a second language, lots of us in here are second language speakers, plus there is absolutely nothing wrong with your English. )

[Lummel]

Yes I remember the discussion about the mysterious absence of mothers as key figures, not sure where it was though. I suppose the question is if GRRM is using this to tell us something about this society and peoples attitudes, mothers aren't role models here. When Mama Sand Snake calls for peace her daughters ignore her and plan for violence and further retribution. Mama Greyjoy is unhinged by the grief and loss of her sons, as indeed was Catelyn who kept her promise to Robb in the end. The mothers here carry the burden of loss inflicted by the honour politics of the fathers, but of course the 'active' nature of honour politics captures the imagination and perpetuates Blackwood vs Bracken style feuding throughout the society. This seems as systemic as the Westerosi weather. Will there be resolution at the end of the story?

Arya and Daeron reminds me very strongly of the Tyrion arc. Daeron is an unsympathetic victim, we're quite happy to see him dead (although before ADWD came out there was a guy who argued that she never killed him). This is GRRM pushing the character out, to see how far we will go in supporting somebody when they do horrible acts.

I always saw the Basilisk tears as an 'ah-ha' moment for Arya as she understood how Jaqen achieved the death of Weese. This to my mind is GRRM telling us to pay attention and be like Arya, not in killing singers, but in putting the pieces together and paying attention to the details.

[Lyanna Stark]

Arya and Daeron reminds me very strongly of the Tyrion arc. Daeron is an unsympathetic victim, we're quite happy to see him dead (although before ADWD came out there was a guy who argued that she never killed him). This is GRRM pushing the character out, to see how far we will go in supporting somebody when they do horrible acts.

He also uses the same mechanic of making the murder indirect.

Tyrion murders Symeon Silvertongue by way of Bronn and a bowl of brown, while Arya's murder of Daemon is only referred to in third person and through the pair of boots. We do not see any of these killings on the page. That further helps us distance ourselves as readers from the act of killing.

The same mechanic is used with Tyrion and Tysha. Instead we focus more on Tyrion's pain than on Tysha's. With Arya and Daeron, we focus more on Arya's justifications than on the murder itself. (Not to say that Tyrion's actions are the exact moral equals to Arya's, just that the same story telling technique is involved.)

[The Sleeper]

Arya and Daeron reminds me very strongly of the Tyrion arc. Daeron is an unsympathetic victim, we're quite happy to see him dead (although before ADWD came out there was a guy who argued that she never killed him). This is GRRM pushing the character out, to see how far we will go in supporting somebody when they do horrible acts.

Considering there is a healthy compartment of Tywin apologists, I'd say pretty far. This has a function in story, however. Tywin's personna is incredibly affected, from his preposterous armor and golden cloak that requires a forklift to move to an upper lip that is cast in stone. This works in-story. The majority of the characters respond to this, much like the readers do, and treat Twyin like as force of nature, invincible and infallible and consider his own person more of a threat than the vast resources he commands. The same applies to Stannis, who characters are afraid off, more than say Renly and his gigantic army. Reputation is currency in the world of aSoIaF and perception is as much or more a part of the story as armies, politics and magic.

I tend to treat these elements, not as an attempt to make readers sympathize or disapprove of a character, (which it may very well be, I'm not in Martin's head, I just don't think that way), but as part of characterization and world-building.

There are four singers who get stomped when they encounter our highborn POV characters. Dareon, Marrilion, Symon Silvertongue and the Blue Bard. On first glance Martin must not like singers very much. With the exception of the Blue Bard who we only see suffering, the rest are not painted in flattering colors. Still, their characterization is somewhat consistent with them being transients who live off their charm and so must become to greater or lesser degree hustlers. All suffer rather horrible fates.

What is most of interest to me is the reactions form the characters who witness and bring forth those fates. In Arya's case, we get a sense of what she can or cannot abide, the fact that she is willing to make the judgement and take responsibility for it and that she goes on the initiative. Her action is neither random, nor frivolous and there were reasons for it whether we agree with them or not. As far as sympathy goes this has been the single most controversial of Arya's skill. Which is rather strange, considering that Arya has a very definite and clear moral blindspot. That is when her victim is not the target himself but in her way. The first example was the guard in Harrenhal, the second the bodyguards of the insurance salesman in the Uggly Little Girl chapter. In these instances there is no consideration of whether they deserve their fate whatsoever. In fact they are hardly considered as people. The only consideration is how much of an obstacle they present.

[The Sleeper]

The Waif.

In this chapter we get the origin story of the Waif. It is being conveyed as part of the lying game, which makes everything in it questionable, but taken on face value gives us a first hint of where little FM come from and what manner of "sacrifice" (with or without the quotation marks) they demand and how they pertain to ideas about justice, vengeance and resolution.

The story is a fairly standard one of greed and vengeance. The Waif is simultaneously the intended victim, the person to be avenged and the price paid. The Waif's father saw an attempted murder that would deprive him of his first daughter, in order for his wife to gain his fortune on behalf of his second daughter. Interestingly enough, these are the very things he has to give up in order to achieve his vengeance. His first daughter is left at the temple to serve and the fortune he has left to be inherited by his second daughter.

Let's think on this from the perspective of the Waif's stepmother. Assuming the sacrifice that was asked of her is the same (two thirds of the fortune and her own daughter) it defeats the purpose of having the Waif killed in the first place. As the situation turned out, the Waif's stepmother got what she wanted in a sense: the Waif out of the way and her own daughter standing to inherit the father's (much diminished) fortune. Only the person that wound up dead is herself. Her daughter is left with a father that is responsible for her mother's death and sacrificed her sister to do it, not the foundation for a healthy loving relationship.

The FM's involvement in this matter has the subtle effects of a hurricane. There is little left standing and it can't be said that anyone gained anything from it. There is a sense of resolution, through annihilation, that is and there seems to be a reflection of the belief that calling for murder has a destructive effect on the person who calls for it. Whether this was the intended effect, on behalf of the FM, we cannot know until we see another sacrifice in order to establish a pattern. Personally, I'd preffer it that way, because I find a religious sect acting out of genuine conviction far more interesting than a group of assassins for hire, though the metaphore can work either way. One thing is certain though, the price is fucking steep and so much so it can act as a deterrant.

The Waif in a sense, got the better end of the deal, getting away from that fucked up situation after being crippled for life. I wonder if her father's pledge was binding to her personally, or if she was given the same choices Arya did prior to becoming a novice. The sacrifice provides a possible origin for the FM, the accolytes and the servants. If there is a choice given to people beign left as a sacrifice at the temple, it provides a possible explanation for Brusco's seemingly close association with the FM. He may have left there and given the choice to either become a priest or to be set up some place else, or simply did not make it through the training and opted out.

[Alberich]

Lyanna,

Thank you very much for the friendly welcome. Yes, Ramsay Bolton is bagging for a terrible end!

Just an Other,

I absolutely agree with your observation of Arya’s moral blind spot – in modern eyes of course and in the eyes of the Faceless Men, too. I suppose the cause in the fact that Arya has lived so much time together with warriors/soldiers. Neither Ned nor Robb nor Jon nor Syrio nor Yoren nor Sandor would ask if an enemy fighter, who stands in their way, deserves to die. This man only would be an obstacle in their eyes, too.

[brashcandy]

Interesting thoughts JAO. I'm pondering the whole theory of arrested development which was explored earlier in Arya's chapters, and what the waif represents as child-woman, stunted in growth, and now dedicating her life to the FM's ideology. The issues that bring the waif to the HoB&W are quite similar to the ones that propel Arya to their steps - separation from "the pack," a need for vengeance and some kind of belonging/healing.

***

FYI:

Milady of York has kindly volunteered to present the remaining book recaps for the thread, and she'll have the one on Arya's arc in AFFC up by tomorrow :)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Dareon is guilty of desertion. Which desertion, I wonder.

Typically, he is a deserter of the Night Watch, but I am not sure that this is the desertion that weights on Arya's decision to kill him.

But IMO, Arya judges him guilty for the "crime" of deserting his companions, among them an old man, a woman and a baby, who depended on him to be fed and warm.

Does she know about it? I guess so, after all she is training to see - to hear - to know...

She mentions that with the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. She goes on describing what other clothes he has bought, IMO implying that she cares about how he spent his money instead of helping his friends. Hence her conscusion "He is fair of face and foul of heart".

Contrasting Dareon's behaviour with Arya's conduct, it's like comparing day to night. She refused to abandon Lommy, little Weasel, Hot Pie, Gendry when he got caught, even Jaqen, Rorge and Bitter, when they were a liability, that could cause her death. Dareon ignored their needs, only to have a good time.

I believe that in case of only deserting the Night Watch, she wouldn't go on to kill him. I think it was the second desertion that made him a target, the first just serving as a "green light".

----

Cats, prideful hunters, sometimes bring the catch back home to "show off". That's what she riminds me, by bringing back the boots. That same night, she warged into a cat.

Telling the KOM, as well as the way she chose to do it, is more of a testing method, I believe: She watched his eyes, his mouth, the muscles of his jaw.

By the way she separates "me" and "Arya", I think she is trying to figure out what exactly is the meaning of being no-one. She doesn't get it; for her, they can't be no-one (= the same) all of them: the "KOM" is someone, the "Waif" is a distinct someone else, as is the "lordling" and so on... A man must have some name, is that not so?

(Actually, I believe that the FM know it too. They can't be no-one, at least not trully. This is the reason they keep the rule of not killing people they know: they cannot cut off their ability to develop feelings. Their basic insticts betray them as well: Jaqen went to great lengths when Arya named him, to save his own life.)