Knight Of Winter Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Sansa, as I recall never said a word to Robert. She didn`t lie, Arya interrupted her to say anything.I do hate to nitpick here (and certainly don't want to turn this into Sansa hate thread), but she lied. She said something like "I couldn't see, it all happened so fast...", before Arya attacked her. She definitely could see what happened, it didn't happen that fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 We already know Sansa doesn`t remember the right name of Joffrey`s sword Arya tossed in the river. You said Sansa lied about it, she actually didn`t say a word against Arya or Mycah. And further more, how this reflects on Arya being effected by war?I didn't make the original comment, but the statement that Arya was betrayed by Sansa has some truth to it. Sansa lied about not remembering what happened that day, so I'm sure Arya felt a level of betrayal from it. Are you actually suggesting Sansa was telling the truth and doesn't remember what happened, that it happened too fast, when we see the events unfold from her POV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I do hate to nitpick here (and certainly don't want to turn this into Sansa hate thread), but she lied. She said something like "I couldn't see, it all happened so fast...", before Arya attacked her. She definitely could see what happened, it didn't happen that fast.As I said, Arya interrupted her before she could properly said anything. Arya is much as fault as Sansa for that testimony. At ;ast, it resolved to nothing, except to Lady`s death, which means Sansa paid the highest price. It`s not like her testimony killed Mycah.Groat, Sansa is one unreliable narrator and GRRM pointed that out. Whether it was shock or anything, we can`t rule out that she was indeed in a moment blacked out, and that Arya`s attack made it all worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterz Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 As I said, Arya interrupted her before she could properly said anything. Arya is much as fault as Sansa for that testimony. At ;ast, it resolved to nothing, except to Lady`s death, which means Sansa paid the highest price. It`s not like her testimony killed Mycah.Groat, Sansa is one unreliable narrator and GRRM pointed that out. Whether it was shock or anything, we can`t rule out that she was indeed in a moment blacked out, and that Arya`s attack made it all worse.While this has little to do with the topic at hand, could you please stop putting up this great defensive wall between Sansa and her mistakes at least for once. Sansa lied, and not because she was traumatized nor was Arya to blame for her lie. Show!Eddard (as I can't remember if Books!Eddard also said this), however, pointed out a good excuse for this and that was that Sansa was put in front of the King and call the Prince soon-to-be engaged to her a liar, leaving her in a bad position.But yes, Sansa's blurry testimony provoked (indirectly) the death of her own wolf and of Mycah, no denying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensleeves Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 We already know Sansa doesn`t remember the right name of Joffrey`s sword Arya tossed in the river. You said Sansa lied about it, she actually didn`t say a word against Arya or Mycah. And further more, how this reflects on Arya being effected by war?Mladen, a bit of nitpicking... It's Arya that misremembers the sword name. Anyways, you can interpret the Mycah incident as Arya betraying Sansa just as easily as the other way around. It seems to me that the adults present bear most of the responsibility for things going poorly. I will say that singling out the pretty much the only person (besides Mycah) who didn't resort to violence seems pretty unfair.As to the original topic... a *lot* of people have been gravely impacted by the war. The Starks are obviously among them.But yes, Sansa's blurry testimony provoked (indirectly) the death of her own wolf and of Mycah, no denying that.Also, since Sandor left to kill Mycah before Sansa was called to testify... yes there is quite a bit of denying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Tyrell Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Well, not including dead characters (and they're clearly the winners) I'd go with Arya and Theon in a tie. Their psyches will never be even close to being the same as they were before the war and there lives are beyond recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 As I said, Arya interrupted her before she could properly said anything. Arya is much as fault as Sansa for that testimony. At ;ast, it resolved to nothing, except to Lady`s death, which means Sansa paid the highest price. It`s not like her testimony killed Mycah.Groat, Sansa is one unreliable narrator and GRRM pointed that out. Whether it was shock or anything, we can`t rule out that she was indeed in a moment blacked out, and that Arya`s attack made it all worse.We know Sansa did remember, because she had told Ned the true story the night it happened. So it's a lie, but Sansa has to lie here. She couldn't tell the truth given the fact that she knew she had to marry Joffrey, where the truth would invariably cause problems for her and the families generally. Sansa tried to play a neutrality card, which had some merit, but is something she also paid sorely for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Still failing to see how the the Mycah thing is an effect of war on Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Tyrell Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I think Tyrion has changed too because of his participations in several nasty battles in less than 2 years time. He's become more brutal but also more efficient.I don't think Tyrion was changed that much by the war itself. He was changed by the fact that his wife was brutally raped by dozens of men in front of Tyrion, and Tyrion finding out that she was exactly who she said she was made him snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 But yes, Sansa's blurry testimony provoked (indirectly) the death of her own wolf and of Mycah, no denying that.Sansa`s testimony HAD NOTHING TO DO with Mycah`s death. Sandor was already sent by the time she tells the story to the King.Mladen, a bit of nitpicking... It's Arya that misremembers the sword name. Anyways, you can interpret the Mycah incident as Arya betraying Sansa just as easily as the other way around. It seems to me that the adults present bear most of the responsibility for things going poorly. I mixed the two of them. I thought it was Sansa. Arya attacked Sansa before she could say anything properly, so let we just not kid ourselves. Arya has also share of blame here. Ned could have influenced Sansa, if Arya could have kept her mouth shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterz Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Also, since Sandor left to kill Mycah before Sansa was called to testify... yes there is quite a bit of denying that.Hmm..I don't recall that but I could be mistaken ofc, mind giving me a source? But regardless, I suppose the Lannisters wouldn't let the butcher's boy survive either way. Alrighty then, my mistake. She's still to blame for Lady though.I don't think Tyrion was changed that much by the war itself. He was changed by the fact that his wife was brutally raped by dozens of men in front of Tyrion, and Tyrion finding out that she was exactly who she said she was made him snap.His battle fever in the Blackwater is inclined to disagree. And also how he had never been responsible nor had he killed anyone before the events of the books and then suddenly he's butchering Baratheon men and slaying his father and former lover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensleeves Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Hmm..I don't recall that but I could be mistaken ofc, mind giving me a source?Um... A Game of Thrones by GRRM?It's pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Hmm..I don't recall that but I could be mistaken ofc, mind giving me a source?Jaime and Sandor were both out searching for Arya since she had disappeared, and they were both still out searching during the audience with the king. Ned runs into Sandor when he goes out to kill Lady. Sandor is on his way back from the search with Mycah all bloodied up (Ned first wonders if it was Nymeria). So Mycah was already killed by the time Sansa is called to testify, or at least, nothing she said would have mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Um... A Game of Thrones by GRRM?It's pretty good.We on this board warmly recommend everyone to read it :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensleeves Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I actually think Theon is a pretty good answer. He is completely transformed by war... but then he still has Asha looking out for him, and that's more than you can say for some characters. I can see him reverting back to something approaching his old self. She's still to blame for Lady though.Nah, I'm pretty sure Ned, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Arya, and Nymeria all take more blame for that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Tyrell Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 His battle fever in the Blackwater is inclined to disagree. And also how he had never been responsible nor had he killed anyone before the events of the books and then suddenly he's butchering Baratheon men and slaying his father and former lover.Tyrion doesn't think much back to Blackwater like many other characters with life changing experiences, and even during that his thoughts went just as much towards Tysha as the battle itself (as a sidenote, that's also the point where I figured out that Tysha was exactly who she said she was)I also think Tyrion was always capable of killing people and the Blackwater did nothing to change that. His whoring and drinking though all stem back from what happened with Tysha, and every decision he's made since then has been affected by that one life event. Tyrion isn't even in the debate for people who have most been affected by the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Arya, Jamie and Davos are my three. Both Arya and Davos, have lost a good number of their family members. Jamie, is completely screwed up in the head, stemming from all that he has done and seen. Out of those three; I would saw Arya is the one, that we have seen be effected the most by war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterz Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Nah, I'm pretty sure Ned, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Arya, and Nymeria all take more blame for that too.I didn't say Sansa was the only one.Most of the names you put there are nonsense, should we blame Hot Pie too? Had Sansa told the truth, her relations with Joffrey could've been crippled sure, but had she told the truth and said that the wolf attacked Joff to stop him from hurting Arya, killing a wolf wouldn't prove much point and I'm sure Eddard would've resisted more to such command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensleeves Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Arya, Jamie and Davos are my three. Both Arya and Davos, have lost a good number of their family members. Jamie, is completely screwed up in the head, stemming from all that he has done and seen. Out of those three; I would saw Arya is the one, that we have seen be effected the most by war.Arya might be a good candidate currently, but I'm still hoping (foolishly?) for an eventual Stark reunion and Arya not permanently being a faceless assassin.I didn't say Sansa was the only one.Most of the names you put there are nonsense, should we blame Hot Pie too? Had Sansa told the truth, her relations with Joffrey could've been crippled sure, but had she told the truth and said that the wolf attacked Joff to stop him from hurting Arya, killing a wolf wouldn't prove much point and I'm sure Eddard would've resisted more to such command.Nah. If you want to have a discussion about it, start posting in a more appropriate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan the G.O.A.T Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Bronn but in the best way possible. He went from having a casual pint with Chiggin to becoming Lord of Stokeworth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.