Which character is effected by war the most?

[Erkan12]

Reek. Man can die but losing his identity different thing...

[Winterz]

Reek. Man can die but losing his identity different thing...

How about dying after losing their identity (without ever recovering)? :P

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Nah, I'm pretty sure Ned, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, Arya, and Nymeria all take more blame for that too.

Nah, Martin was asked this question twice and on both occasions he said it was Sansa's fault that Lady died.

Returning to the OP, I think the ones most affected are Robb - he was thrust in a role he wasn't quite ready for and paid the ultimate price, Theon - he was forced to make a Sophie's choice and also paid a heavy price for it and finally, Sansa, who became a pawn in a pit of players. Others may have suffered but I feel as though they were more prepared or education or experienced and therefore more capable and less of a victim.

[greensleeves]

Nah, Martin was asked this question twice and on both occasions he said it was Sansa's fault that Lady died.

Could Sansa have prevented it? Maybe, but so could any of the people I listed above. If you're saying that Sansa is more at fault than Ned, Robert, Cersei, and Joffrey in particular then you are blatantly wrong.

Again, I'm pleased to talk about it at length outside the thread.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

It's affected me the most. I'm beside myself with joy.

[The Great Walrus]

It's affected me the most. I'm beside myself with joy.

You have no shame...

[Lord Elrosir]

Rickon.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya might be a good candidate currently, but I'm still hoping (foolishly?) for an eventual Stark reunion and Arya not permanently being a faceless assassin.

She's not a toy or a machine that they can just patch up. A human being is far more complex than that. They also can't give her memory loss.

As for the effects of war-She went hungry for long periods of time and wondered about where she was going to sleep next. This has nothing to do with the FM. The first time she is well fed since KL is when she is in Braavos.

She has feelings of abandonment whether the person in question left her willingly or died on her. This has nothing to do with the FM. Seeing her family members doesn't bring those people back nor does it change the past. They can't fix her trust issues. They did nothing to help her insecurities. In fact some made it worse so I doubt they would all of a sudden turn into a fixer upper.

Having to be at the scene of the RW and thinking she could save her mother. Her family members were never there. They didn't see it. Although it hurt them on emotional level it was far more vivid for her since she has more of a first hand experience with it.

She had to steal/reject life lessons in order to survive. This happens before the FM. Her time as Cat just helps her do it more efficiently.

She was subject to sexual violence and torture on a daily basis by having to see it and wondering if she was next. This has nothing to do with the FM and everything to do with her time in Harrenhal.Going back to her family members wouldn't change it and they have no idea what it feels like to having to see that in Harrenhal.

Killing. This started back in AGoT. She was killing far more in Westeros. Her first questionable kill (the Bolton guard) is actually quite similar to the insurance man in that it doesn't matter if the person is innocent or guilty if he's in the way of her goals.

She's not going to stop killing just because she's with her family or because she's not with the FM. Nymeria isn't either for that matter.

Her most violent kill is when she was with the Hound not the FM. Although it can be argued that it was more justified than the insurance man because the Tickler gave her a look that said if you don't kill me I'm going to kill you.

If the portion of the fanbase that loves to call her a psychopath are right that she is one or is becoming one then that's not curable and her family members would become victims as well.

Anyways, as for betrayal I've always said the more damaging betrayal is her reaction to Joffrey trying to kill Arya and her saying Arya should have died. It's also her indifference to Mycah. Although this is not only Sansa. Arya's views start to change before the war and it's with the killing of Mycah. No one cared. That's partially why in KL Arya doesn't want to be near any of them and locks herself in her room. No one truly cares about the weak. No one will defend them. No one will care when they die. Arya takes that lesson and says she can't be the weak one. Mycah was powerless and hunted down by the Hound. A lot of Arya's story has to do with being the hunted and becoming the hunter.

ETA: As far as identity let's not forget that she had to change her identity many times before the FM to the point that when Harwin asked her for her name she did not know who she was for a second. She also has forgotten her age more than once.

[Persicaria]

Catelyn lost her home, and lost her husband all her kids, so she's one. And Sansa even more so having lost every single member of her family.

Robb lost the same thing + his men and kingdom. And Arya also lost everything.

You know what, Im just going to say the Starks and Tullys as a whole :crying:

I wish I could like your comment. I wholly agree with this. Everyone in House Stark got hit real hard.

[greensleeves]

...

Good post!

Yes, Arya has obviously sustained profound psychological wounds as a result of war. I was just trying to say that I am hopeful her overall arc in the coming books will take a more positive turn... but I could very easily be wrong about that.

I think I've read a post of yours about the foreshadowing of Arya's death, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with your interpretations. For example, I see Jon's phrase about finding her frozen body with needle as foreshadowing her eventual renion with him (while still alive). There are two instances in the books where she throws something at Sansa (a snowball (in memory) and a blood orange) both times causing Sansa tears (from melted snow and I think maybe actual tears)... I see these two instances as foreshadowing some future interaction between them, but I'm not sure what.

I could, however, just be avoiding an uncomfortable truth. Now I'm depressed.

Edit: 'Fixing' a psyche is difficult (if 'fixing' even makes sense in that context). Nevertheless, I think that some amount of healing is still possible for Arya. I in no way meant to marginalize the trauma Arya has gone through. I was simply trying to say that there are probably some characters that have suffered enormously who don't have any future to speak of.

[ARYa_Nym]

Good post!

Yes, Arya has obviously sustained profound psychological wounds as a result of war. I was just trying to say that I am hopeful her overall arc in the coming books will take a more positive turn... but I could very easily be wrong about that.

I think I've read a post of yours about the foreshadowing of Arya's death, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with your interpretations. For example, I see Jon's phrase about finding her frozen body with needle as foreshadowing her eventual renion with him (while still alive). There are two instances in the books where she throws something at Sansa (a snowball (in memory) and a blood orange) both times causing tears (from melted snow and I think maybe actual tears)... I see these two instances as foreshadowing some future interaction between them, but I'm not sure what.

I could, however, just be avoiding an uncomfortable truth. Now I'm depressed.

He's saying she will be killing (sewing) through winter. The longer she hides the sterner the penance (punishment/price she must pay/atonement). When the spring thaw comes (winter is almost almost over) they (notice Jon does not say he will or say we) will find her frozen body with a needle in her fingers (her sword is named Needle after Jon says this).

They will find your body actually sounds similar to Ned say they found her when talking about Lyanna.

It either means she will be frozen literally (dead) or frozen inside and nothing is left but an emotionless girl who kills.

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

Davos lost his four kids as well.

hehe i like this ... arguing who lost more Arya or Catlyn is kinda stupid becouse they both Starks they have same familly

just say stark instad :P

maester Aemon is great answer too

im gonna say Walder Frey (this isnt answer so far but fututre quess :P)

[greensleeves]

He's saying she will be killing (sewing) through winter. The longer she hides the sterner the penance (punishment/price she must pay/atonement). When the spring thaw comes (winter is almost almost over) they (notice Jon does not say he will or say we) will find her frozen body with a needle in her fingers (her sword is named Needle after Jon says this).

They will find your body actually sounds similar to Ned say they found her when talking about Lyanna.

It either means she will be frozen literally (dead) or frozen inside and nothing is left but an emotionless girl who kills.

I had interpreted 'frozen body' as in 'frozen in time'; she stops her body from aging (hopefully temporarily) like the girl/woman in HoB&W. The 'they' is troublesome though (I admit I didn't remember that particular phrasing)...

[ARYa_Nym]

I had interpreted 'frozen body' as in 'frozen in time'; she stops her body from aging (hopefully temporarily) like the girl/woman in HoB&W. The 'they' is troublesome though (I admit I didn't remember the particular phrasing)...

I don't think it's temporary. The waif had her body poisoned to become like that. The KM said Arya can too but only if she wants to.

[greensleeves]

I don't think it's temporary. The waif had her body poisoned to become like that. The KM said Arya can too but only if she wants to.

Unfortunate if you're right about it not being temporary. I guess if my interpretation is correct then she would never be able to bear children or have a very healthy sex life.

[ARYa_Nym]

Unfortunate if you're right about it not being temporary. I guess if my interpretation is correct then she would never be able to bear children or have a very healthy sex life.

Those two likely weren't happening anyway. As it stands with the FM women create life and they bring death. She can't have children. Since there is no immaculate conception she'd have to have interest first in order to get pregnant outside cases of force.

As for a healthy sex life she's already been exposed to tons of rape and has no interest in intimacy even on innocent childlike terms.

Her wolf is also rumored to reject male suitors as well by killing them.

[greensleeves]

Those two likely weren't happening anyway. As it stands with the FM women create life and they bring death. She can't have children. Since there is no immaculate conception she'd have to have interest first in order to get pregnant outside cases of force.

As for a healthy sex life she's already been exposed to tons of rape and has no interest in intimacy even on innocent childlike terms.

Her wolf is also rumored to reject male suitors as well by killing them.

I was talking about my fantasy future for her where she's in a safe environment away from the FM.

I know that she's never had an interest in intimacy, but given that she hasn't even gone through puberty I think that's something that would most likely have changed. The trauma she's been exposed to, however, could very easily retard any sexual development.

[The Y.O.L.O Submarine]

The small folk of the riverlands lost the most

[ARYa_Nym]

I was talking about my fantasy future for her where she's in a safe environment away from the FM.

I know that she's never had an interest in intimacy, but given that she hasn't even gone through puberty I think that's something that would most likely have changed. The trauma she's been exposed to, however, could very easily retard any sexual development.

Would she really be safe just because she is away? What stops them from wanting to hunt her down if she leaves?

Arya is actually in a stable environment now in Braavos. It's far more stable than her time in Westeros after WF. She has female friends, sister figures, and there are many males around.

Not necessarily. There's a reason why many wonder if she's asexual. That's still a possibility. Or maybe she isn't. We don't know yet. She's about to be in puberty though.

Still she's at the age where children are curious and Arya is a person who likes to know things yet has a complete lack of interest. There are other children in the series who have showed interest but in an innocent way.

ETA: But anyways, I don't think Jon's line referred to her staying a little girl physically unless he meant forever young in the dying way.

[greensleeves]

Would she really be safe just because she is away? What stops them from wanting to hunt her down if she leaves?

Arya is actually in a stable environment now in Braavos. It's far more stable than her time in Westeros after WF. She has female friends, sister figures, and there are many males around.

See things are already starting to look better! :P

ETA: But anyways, I don't think Jon's line referred to her staying a little girl physically unless he meant forever young in the dying way.

Fair enough. I still think Jon's line could refer to a waif-like 'freezing' and I still think that 'freezing' might be temporary (the waif still handles the poisons on a daily basis after all). I'm not ready to jump on the 'Arya is completely doomed' bandwagon.

Out of curiosity: Have you thought about the foreshadowing implications of the blood orange/snowball stuff with Sansa? Could you direct me to a relevant post?