Does Catelyn have any empathy/sympathy for other parents at all?

[Scipio Africanus]

Not necessarily. Catelyn didn't free Jaime irrationally exactly. She reasoned through it, and was banking on Tyrion still being in power in KL, believing Tyrion might have authorized the trade.

I recently had a sizeble debate with a few people about how to classify Cat's action with Jamie, which I personally can only qualify as a clown move where she did herself, her family and her country no favours. And I call that ironic. Because Cat actually doesn't make all that many "emotional" decisions and isn't ruled solely by it either. Her Catnapping of Tyrion wasn't based on emotions but based on opportunity and evidence she had at the time. She berates Robb for sending Theon to Balon (which he did on emotion - that Theon was his best friend and wouldn't betray him) for example. She berates Edmure from pulling troops out of the Twins and giving Roose an independant command (which Edmure did out of emotion - that he wanted some glory too).

Yet she released Jamie out of desperation and entirely based on her longing for her daughters. Understandable, but it contradicts how Cat usually thought. And she did it for some really reasons too. She heard from a not-so-reliable Frey (she openly mistrusts that family usually) that the Imp MAY be game for a trade (so she can't be certain, and didn't she realize Tywin was still the real power behind the throne?). She than totally doesn't communicate with Tyrion for this supposed trade, which is baffeling to me but ok. I guess Cat wanted to go rogue and by sending a message through ravenmail the Maester of Riverrun would know. But there are other ways for passing messages and hush-hush, like sending Brienne to KL.

In the end it had a lot of consequences for the war effort and ultimately it contributed to Robb's death and her own death.

[SeanF]

She destabalized the way even more than it was trusting the enemy would give her what she wants. Sansa and Arya returning would not helpnthe north at all in the war effort. Cat was sending the Lannister's their greatest warrior back. Her risk to herself was for her own motivations, at great risk to all her allies.

Sansa was a valuable prisoner as would have been Arya. Jaime had no great reputation as a commander, for all his prowess as a warrior. It would have been a fair exchange.

It wasn't a selfish decision by Catelyn. She even speculated that Robb's Bannermen would insist on her being hanged for what she had done.

[The Duke]

Sansa was a valuable prisoner as would have been Arya. Jaime had no great reputation as a commander, for all his prowess as a warrior. It would have been a fair exchange.

It wasn't a selfish decision by Catelyn. She even speculated that Robb's Bannermen would insist on her being hanged for what she had done.

Just because she may have been harmed doesn't make it unselfish. She did it for her desires alone. Unless itnwas to get Arya back to marry him to Robert Arryn and bring the Vale to their side and Sansa to Quentyn Martell or Willas Tyrell for another powerful ally, that exchange makes no sense outside of Cat's selfish desire to see them safe. I completely understand her motivation, but it was still completely selfish.

Even in chains the kingslayer was feared by pretty much everyone. He may not have been a master strategist, but he was feared. His host was taken unawares at night and it still wasn't a sure thingm

[Littlefingers In The Air]

As for another passage showing how Catelyn isn't selfish, here is a passage I've just come across near the end of my A Game of Thrones reread:

Around him others knelt: Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, and more. Even Tytos Blackwood was among them, the great raven cloak fanned out behind him. These are the ones who keep the old gods, she realized. She asked herself what gods she kept these days, and could not find an answer. It would not due to disturb them at their prayers. The gods must have their due...even cruel gods who would take Ned from her, and her lord father as well.

[butterbumps!]

I recently had a sizeble debate with a few people about how to classify Cat's action with Jamie, which I personally can only qualify as a clown move where she did herself, her family and her country no favours. And I call that ironic. Because Cat actually doesn't make all that many "emotional" decisions and isn't ruled solely by it either. Her Catnapping of Tyrion wasn't based on emotions but based on opportunity and evidence she had at the time. She berates Robb for sending Theon to Balon (which he did on emotion - that Theon was his best friend and wouldn't betray him) for example. She berates Edmure from pulling troops out of the Twins and giving Roose an independant command (which Edmure did out of emotion - that he wanted some glory too).

Yet she released Jamie out of desperation and entirely based on her longing for her daughters. Understandable, but it contradicts how Cat usually thought. And she did it for some really reasons too. She heard from a not-so-reliable Frey (she openly mistrusts that family usually) that the Imp MAY be game for a trade (so she can't be certain, and didn't she realize Tywin was still the real power behind the throne?). She than totally doesn't communicate with Tyrion for this supposed trade, which is baffeling to me but ok. I guess Cat wanted to go rogue and by sending a message through ravenmail the Maester of Riverrun would know. But there are other ways for passing messages and hush-hush, like sending Brienne to KL.

In the end it had a lot of consequences for the war effort and ultimately it contributed to Robb's death and her own death.

To be thoroughly honest, I'm not sure how I feel about Cat's freeing Jaime from an objective viewpoint. That is, I'm not truly sure what the real ramifications of this act actually are. I don't believe it was a "clown move," nor would I say it's an act of strategic brilliance.

To walk through your points, yes, the notion to free Jaime to have Sansa and Arya returned is about love rather than a strategic army effort. It's a case of conflicting interests: there is the war effort and what Robb's men want versus the needs of Sansa and Arya. However, Cat did think through the hostage trade strategically. It's a case where she was motivated by the desire to protect her children, but thought it through pragmatically. And I can see why she thought there might be promise to this; she was quite fair to Tyrion (almost an advocate for him by the point Lysa ruined things), and he had saved her life on the way to the Eyrie, which showed some sense of altruism or rightness in him. By thinking of appealing to that Lannister, I don't know that she'd have been tremendously far off in her assessment.

I'm not sure what negative repercussions this action truly caused though. It brought dissension in Robb's ranks, so it lowered morale, but hadn't had real consequences to that end. Karstark behaved completely ignobly in retaliation, but that's on him, not Cat. By contrast, the loss of Winterfell to Theon, something Cat had counseled Robb against, served to weaken the Stark cause far more than the discord Cat stirred by freeing Jaime. And then there is also the personal ramifications to consider in Jaime's character. Cat stirs something in Jaime when she frees him; we see that he's actually intending to try to get her daughters to safety. So one completely unforeseen ramification of this is that Jaime is actually putting in an effort to save her daughters (or at least the one he believes is still alive) through Brienne. There's an argument that freeing him will actually result in Arya and Sansa's safety in some capacity.

[mormont]

Just because she may have been harmed doesn't make it unselfish. She did it for her desires alone.

Well, I think Sansa's and Arya's desires (not to mention their best interests) might have had a little bit to do with it too.

This idea that if you do something because you want to, it must be 'selfish', even if it comes at a high personal price, is really weird. Was Robb selfish for wanting to rescue his father? Was Jon selfish for wanting to rescue Arya from Ramsay? Was Davos selfish for trying to kill Melisandre? I'm having trouble seeing anything that could not be considered 'selfish', if Cat's decision here qualifies.

[The Duke]

Well, I think Sansa's and Arya's desires (not to mention their best interests) might have had a little bit to do with it too.

This idea that if you do something because you want to, it must be 'selfish', even if it comes at a high personal price, is really weird. Was Robb selfish for wanting to rescue his father? Was Jon selfish for wanting to rescue Arya from Ramsay? Was Davos selfish for trying to kill Melisandre? I'm having trouble seeing anything that could not be considered 'selfish', if Cat's decision here qualifies.

Sansa and Arya's desires don't come into it, they have no power to affect the situation. Cat goes against the wants of literally everyone else just for the possibility of getting what she wants. Pretty much the entire north wanted Ned back. Davos was far from alone wanting Mel dead (Kings men, release her hold over Stannis). Jon had a host of wildlings supporting him and made no one come with him (albeit, he was breaking his vows). Cat was literally the only person who wanted to make that exchange.

Doing what you want to for your own desires regarless of the desires or consequences to other people is pretty much the definition of selfish.

[SeanF]

To be thoroughly honest, I'm not sure how I feel about Cat's freeing Jaime from an objective viewpoint. That is, I'm not truly sure what the real ramifications of this act actually are. I don't believe it was a "clown move," nor would I say it's an act of strategic brilliance.

.

It's too early to say. It may very well be the case that Jaime and/or Brienne have some role to play in rescuing Sansa.

[butterbumps!]

Sansa and Arya's desires don't come into it, they have no power to affect the situation. Cat goes against the wants of literally everyone else just for the possibility of getting what she wants. Pretty much the entire north wanted Ned back. Davos was far from alone wanting Mel dead (Kings men, release her hold over Stannis). Jon had a host of wildlings supporting him and made no one come with him (albeit, he was breaking his vows). Cat was literally the only person who wanted to make that exchange.

Doing what you want to for your own desires regarless of the desires or consequences to other people is pretty much the definition of selfish.

This is a fairly strange definition of "selfish" that you're drawing. An action is selfish if no one else wants it? That makes no sense, and isn't the definition of selfish. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, not to mention those still at Winterfell and Jon would have been overjoyed by this.

Whether Sansa and Arya had any power over this is kind of the point. No one but Cat was an advocate for them. Freeing them isn't about Cat wanting her daughters like some covetous motivation of desire, but to save their lives which were ostensibly in danger. That it was done for someone else's benefit is why the move is not selfish on Cat's part.

Call it contrary to Robb's war effort to the extent it caused a drop in morale and discord, but there is no way to make an argument that this is selfish based on what "selfish" actually means in relations to Cat's action.

[Aleenys]

Doing what you want to for your own desires regarless of the desires or consequences to other people is pretty much the definition of selfish.

Arya and Sansa both wanted to return to their family. Therefore, your definiton is absurd.

[The Duke]

Arya and Sansa both wanted to return to their family. Therefore, your definiton is absurd.

She was disregarding tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people to get what she wants for her and her daughters. She was sacrificing the norths biggest chip they had to negotiate to benefit a small handful of people. Google 'definition of selfish':

Lacking consideration for others; concerned cheifly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

I'm not calling what she did dishonorable, I would have done the same, just selfish, which it was.

[mormont]

Sansa and Arya's desires don't come into it, they have no power to affect the situation.

So? What does their agency, or lack of it, have to do with Cat's motives?

Your claim was that Cat did what she did 'for her desires alone'. Pardon me saying so, but that's bunk. She did it for Sansa and Arya. To cut their desires out of the picture in an attempt to justify the claim of 'selfishness' is simply absurd, a failed attempt at sophistry that just won't wash.

You may or may not consider Cat's actions misguided. But that's an entirely different thing than calling them 'selfish'.

[The Duke]

So? What does their agency, or lack of it, have to do with Cat's motives?

Your claim was that Cat did what she did 'for her desires alone'. Pardon me saying so, but that's bunk. She did it for Sansa and Arya. To cut their desires out of the picture in an attempt to justify the claim of 'selfishness' is simply absurd, a failed attempt at sophistry that just won't wash.

You may or may not consider Cat's actions misguided. But that's an entirely different thing than calling them 'selfish'.

Cat was choosing family over realm. Her son, the King, wouldn't and all his bannermen agreed.

[butterbumps!]

She was disregarding tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people to get what she wants for her and her daughters. She was sacrificing the norths biggest chip they had to negotiate to benefit a small handful of people. Google 'definition of selfish':

Lacking consideration for others; concerned cheifly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

I'm not calling what she did dishonorable, I would have done the same, just selfish, which it was.

Where in heaven's name are you getting the idea that Cat was lacking in consideration for others, and working toward her own personal profit? She had concern for her daughters, not herself. You are using "selfish" incorrectly.

Can you please explain exactly what you believe the ramifications of freeing Jaime are? Can you also explain how Cat "disregarded" tens of thousands of people? Do you mean because she did not put this to a vote and hadn't weighed their opinions? Or are you trying to say she puts tens of thousands of lives at risk? Can you just be more precise about these?

Cat was choosing family over realm. Her son, the King, wouldn't and all his bannermen agreed.

Do you mean like when Ned defied Robert and chose to protect Jon and Lyanna (his family)? Like when Robb chose to march for the sake of his father? Like when Jon decides to save Arya?

[SeanF]

She was disregarding tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people to get what she wants for her and her daughters. She was sacrificing the norths biggest chip they had to negotiate to benefit a small handful of people. Google 'definition of selfish':

Lacking consideration for others; concerned cheifly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

I'm not calling what she did dishonorable, I would have done the same, just selfish, which it was.

Whose interests were being sacrificed? If it was the case that the Lannisters were prepared to concede Northern independence, and surrender their prisoners, in return for the release of Jaime, you'd have a point, but there is no such evidence.

[mormont]

Cat was choosing family over realm. Her son, the King, wouldn't and all his bannermen agreed.

How does this answer the point that she was doing what she did for Sansa and Arya, not for herself?

And how does it address the point that 'choosing family over realm' is a description that fits almost every character's actions at some point in the story? If doing something for your family's sake is selfishness, there are a hell of a lot of selfish people in the books - and in the real world, for that matter.

[Aleenys]

She was disregarding tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people to get what she wants for her and her daughters. She was sacrificing the norths biggest chip they had to negotiate to benefit a small handful of people. Google 'definition of selfish':

Lacking consideration for others; concerned cheifly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

I'm not calling what she did dishonorable, I would have done the same, just selfish, which it was.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Sansa and Arya are living, breathing human beings, not objects. And their lives were in danger. Cat wanting to save them, as a mother (I bet if she didn't want to save them people would still have given her shit for it, what a perfect mother she doesn't care about her daughters) made total sense.

And your idea that thinking of 2 children against "tens of thousands" is selfish makes zero sense. So selfishness has a measurement that if you save a few people instead of caring about thousands it counts as selfish in your opinion? Well, damn you Davos for saving Edric, what were you thinking? You selfish bastard you. Sadly I've never seen someone make that claim.

[Dana Holland]

sansa and Arya both have very limited value from a strictly tactical sense. Both were below Robb, Bran, Rickon, and Jon as heirs to winterfell. Now as peices to maintain allances they have some value.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Inconsiderate might be the word The Duke is looking for, and even that's a stretch. It could be argued better than selfish Catelyn could though.

[Dana Holland]

a moderate amount of selfishness isn't a bad thing ;)