Does Catelyn have any empathy/sympathy for other parents at all?

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Of course she has flaws, but no more than the other "good guys".

So are people not allowed to discuss her flaws because other characters have flaws too? Come on, you literally jumped into the thread on the offensive and declared that objectively everyone in this thread is wrong for not being sympathetic towards Cat. You couldn't be any more of an epitome of how people can't discuss a characters flaws without being slammed as an "objectively" wrong hater. Of course Cat can be sympathized with; she's a mother who is, to her knowledge, watching her family get savaged and killed off. But why is it so wrong to look on the other hand, and not sympathize with her when she does questionable things like release the Kingslayer or consider smallfolk as useless mouths that don't deserve walled protection from a marauding army slaughtering left right and centre?

[David Selig]

So are people not allowed to discuss her flaws because other characters have flaws too? Come on, you literally jumped into the thread on the offensive and declared that objectively everyone in this thread is wrong for not being sympathetic towards Cat. You couldn't be any more of an epitome of how people can't discuss a characters flaws without being slammed as an "objectively" wrong hater.

Of course people are allowed to discuss the flaws. What I objected to was the claim that she is on some fundamentally different level of intended sympathy than other characters because for me that's nonsense. If people don't like her - cool, all of us has particular things which annoy us and push our buttons.

[mormont]

From my own reading, I'd suggest that Cat is intended by the author to have one major flaw: her attitude to Jon. We're not meant to regard this entirely unsympathetically, since he takes time to make it clear this stems from genuine emotional pain and to show that, once Jon and she are separated, she carries no grudge: but clearly, the conflict is set up intentionally.

For the other things that Cat is criticised for (including the OP's frankly tenuous suggestion that she has no empathy for other parents, something contradicted in the text on more than one occasion) I think that there was no intention on the author's part to present these as character flaws or things for which she should be disliked by readers. On Tyrion's arrest, for example, the author goes to some lengths to give Cat no realistic option - he literally forces the confrontation on her and sets things up so that she has a good faith belief that she has no choice. On freeing Jaime, it's made absolutely clear that she does this out of love and concern, it turns out to actually be the best option, and it's set up as a contrast against a rather stuffy, hidebound view that it's inconceivable to trade a warrior male for female captives. As for Karstark, there is no doubt that we're not meant to sympathise with him over Cat freeing Jaime. He's set up to be completely unsympathetic - he murders children in cold blood, after all.

I don't see Cat as being set up as a 'morally grey' character in the same way as, for example, Tyrion. As much as the author may enjoy writing Tyrion, it's obvious that many of the things the character does are intended to be morally questionable. The same simply does not apply to Cat.

[SeanF]

She's flawed in the sense that she makes mistakes. But, she doesn't seem to me to be morally flawed, in the same way as the truly grey characters of the series. Her worst act was cutting Jinglebell's throat, but I would say that she wasn't really responsible for her actions at that point.

[Runaway Penguin]

Her worst act, that cost her son war, crown and life, was releasing Jaime (or, it could be argued, capturing Tyrion, but by then the situation was salvageable even AFTER Jaime's attack on Ned).

Reaction at Riverrun is a reaction of someone who knows better about sieges. From military PoV they ARE useless mouths, bad as it may seem. Note that Blackfish did not provide them shelter.

[SeanF]

Of course she has empathy and sympathy for other parents, plenty of it.

First passage that came to mind, but there are others.

Catelyn has a degree of sympathy for the Smallfolk that is unusual for members of her class. After the attack on her party by the Mountain Clansmen, she wanted to build cairns over the servants who had died in the fighting. Tyrion, OTOH, never spared a thought for them,

[Free Northman]

I would argue that she is presented as a hard, cold woman. Not an evil one by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not inherently likeable or warm. She is portrayed as a character type that many people struggle to sympathise with.

There's nothing wrong with this. Different people sypmathize with different personality types.

Asha is hard too, but has a better sense of humor, adding to her likeability.

Arriane is passionate, which goes some way to softening her obvious self centered behavior.

Anyway, some people love Catelyn as a beautifully written character. Nothing wrong with that either. But it is undeniable that many people - probably the majority of readers - are put off by her personality, to a greater or lesser degree.

[Master Forel's Fro]

I think she does especially as her whole perspective on life is as a woman and a mother. I remember her thinking that even cercei loves her children so obviously she can see others POV.

[The Drunkard]

But it is undeniable that many people - probably the majority of readers - are put off by her personality, to a greater or lesser degree.

I'd deny that.

[SeanF]

I would argue that she is presented as a hard, cold woman. Not an evil one by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not inherently likeable or warm. She is portrayed as a character type that many people struggle to sympathise with.

.

I certainly couldn't imagine sharing a joke with Catelyn. But, I think her coldness and hardness is very much conditioned by the circumstances she finds herself in. By comparison, Jon often comes over as cold and hard as Lord Commander, but again, I see that as being due to his circumstances.

To me, Catelyn is like one of those teachers that you have a lot of respect for, but not much affection.

Whereas, by contrast, I find it much easier to warm to Tyrion, Jaime, and Daenerys, despite the fact that they're worse people than Catelyn.

[David Selig]

I would argue that she is presented as a hard, cold woman. Not an evil one by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not inherently likeable or warm. She is portrayed as a character type that many people struggle to sympathise with.

Wait a second - you claimed earlier than Jon and Ned are supposed to be way more likeable and sympathetic. Aren't they just as cold and hard in personality, if not more?

[mormont]

I would argue that she is presented as a hard, cold woman.

You'd have a hard time, then. You'd have to ignore whole swathes of text that contradicts that view. From her very first chapter, where she and Ned laugh about the children and talk about Jon Arryn and Lysa, to her very last thoughts of Ned, Cat shows tenderness, love, compassion, concern, passion, and emotion constantly.

[Knight Of Winter]

I find this amusing - from the beginning of this thread till now (page 4) Catelyn was accused of both being cold and hard woman and acting solely based on emotions.

I think it's pretty clear she indeed feels empathy for other people, from Mya Stone to Cersei and even Jon Snow's mother to some degree. People above me provided quotes and elaborated on it nicely, so I don't have anything useful to add here.

[Scipio Africanus]

I would argue that she is presented as a hard, cold woman. Not an evil one by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not inherently likeable or warm. She is portrayed as a character type that many people struggle to sympathise with.

I believe the big problem is the timing and the manner which Cat is presented, along with the course of events which have painted her in a negative light for many readers.

You see, we meet Cat right at the moment her sister screamed foul play at her husband's death, which triggered the king to come to his old friend Eddard, her husband, and in turn triggered her family falling apart and heading towards danger.

Cat had a lot on her plate and it got exponentially worst as her son Bran had a serious accident and even suffered through an attempt on his (and her own) life. After that she was involved in a conspiracy and later outright war. Later she suffered through the knowledge that not only her husband was dead but her two younger sons murdered, and her two daughter held hostage, her father dying and her sister astranged.

I don't think anyone would be mr/mrs sunshine after all that.

The first vibe I got when I first read about her was evil stepmother, because of Jon. While I still disagree with her stance towards Jon, her later POVs and her actions brought her (to me) in a whole different light. She displayed a lot of intelligence and diplomacy but she was let down by all the males (and one female, her sister) she talked to IMO. And ironically, in the end, she did to herself a lot of damage by releasing Jamie the way she did.

The other problem with Cat is that either people Cat-slam her for her supposed "emotional" transgressions, which provokes knee-jerk reactions from apologists who immediately blame other characters (particulairly characters they don't like). It makes objective discussion of Cat's actions difficult around here.

[SeanF]

What initially predisposed me against Catelyn was both "it should have been you", and the arrest of Tyrion, who, up till then has been presented very sympathetically, and who we know to be innocent.

On reflection, the first was clearly out of character, and the second was simply a case of Catelyn being forced to choose between two equally dangerous courses of action.

[Scipio Africanus]

On reflection, the first was clearly out of character,

Perhaps in the manner that it was said but Cat never had much love for Jon and she projected her fears that he'd steal from her children on him, which we find out is baseless.

No one is perfect and her reaction is human and understandable, but it still is a flaw.

[ARYa_Nym]

I find this amusing - from the beginning of this thread till now (page 4) Catelyn was accused of both being cold and hard woman and acting solely based on emotions.

Yes, you can often find conflicting critiques and praises. Arya for example does also get the critique that she is ruled by her emotions but is also called a psychopath (they feel shallow emotions and mainly mimic human emotions).

Anyways, I don't consider Catelyn a warm person overall. I see her as someone who is that way only to her nuclear family but as said by others she's not the type you laugh with or would want to have drinks with unless you're a fan of her. That's why I never saw the mirthful wild Brandon as a good match for her. She's much better with the dull uptight Ned. They are more similar.

[David Selig]

I find this amusing - from the beginning of this thread till now (page 4) Catelyn was accused of both being cold and hard woman and acting solely based on emotions.

I've noticed this tends to happen often when discussing female characters, and not just in ASOIF. They are damned if the do and damned if they don't. It's quite unfortunate really.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Cat, to me, is somewhat selfish in her own way, I'll catch hell for this I know but that's just the way I see her.

Not only do I agree with you, but I think you're underplaying it. Cat's a total selfish bitch and is just a step below Cersei.

[The Duke]

It also rubbed me the wrong way that she kept tagging along after Robb when she had 2 more children at home who desparately wanted her there, whereas Robb had to walk a fine line of not appearing to being mollycoddled by her, and didn't want her there. She gave Robb sound advice, but he was a man grown in that world.