(Spoilers) An aspect of the Red Wedding that is odd. (Spoilers)

[Lummel]

Well....I know lots of you are quick to jump to the bad examples. There is no denying that we have a laundry list to choose from. But, we also have dozens of examples of knights who take their vows and honor seriously. Brienne, Duncan the Tall, The Kingsguard at the ToJ, the knight in the Vale that did not want to fight Tyrion because he was a dwarf. And that is just to name a few. The books establish that there were at least 1000 knights in Lord Frey's service. So even if we overestimate that 80% of knights are more like Gregor Clegane and less like Brienne then we still have to account for up to 200 true knights, don't we?...

Wait a minute the kingsguard are exactly like the Frey knights at the Red Wedding - they were only obeying orders, so your list of 'true' knights comprises three, one of whom is long, long dead. In percentage terms then you might be talking about one percent who might have moral qualms about this.

However don't forget Robb by marrying Jeyne has also insulted all of those Frey knights by breaking his word to their lord. The promised marriaged enhanced their status because their lord was going up in the world and being taken more seriously for change. Robb's marriage is a slap in their face too - their lord's daughter, the daughter of the man they have sworn themselves too, isn't good enough for la-di-da fancy pants Wolf-boy - what does that say about them?

Finally I don't think the frey knights want to be left on the loosing side either and after the battle of the Blackwater it is clear how things are going to work out.

We are shown the face of knighthood in the series and it isn't pretty. Don't think there is any surprise here.

[GREYJOY4LYFE]

They was only following orders

[Thendel]

Well....I know lots of you are quick to jump to the bad examples. There is no denying that we have a laundry list to choose from. But, we also have dozens of examples of knights who take their vows and honor seriously. Brienne, Duncan the Tall, The Kingsguard at the ToJ, the knight in the Vale that did not want to fight Tyrion because he was a dwarf. And that is just to name a few. The books establish that there were at least 1000 knights in Lord Frey's service. So even if we overestimate that 80% of knights are more like Gregor Clegane and less like Brienne then we still have to account for up to 200 true knights, don't we?

And.....I did not start this post thinking that all of Lord Frey's knights are good guys. I simply wanted to point out that Lord Frey somehow managed to get many many people to do something that they are supposed to be against in general. And he seemed to do it with ease and precision. Maybe too much ease and precision to be believable.

More like 99% would just follow the orders they were given, while the remaining 1% would succumb to peer pressure. Men and women like Brienne and Dunk are the exception rather than the norm, which is what makes them the stuff of heroes. There are simply too many knights for one to assume that they are inherently much different from men-at-arms in terms of honor.

And as far as the average Frey soldier is concerned, Robb Stark betrayed their liege lord, thus making him and his soldiers the enemy. Killing them thus makes sense. The ones doing the more heinous acts inside the Twins seem to largely have been household guards, Lord Walder's brood, and Roose's handpicked soldiers, all of whom can be counted upon to follow through on their orders.

[SeanF]

Wait a minute the kingsguard are exactly like the Frey knights at the Red Wedding - they were only obeying orders, so your list of 'true' knights comprises three, one of whom is long, long dead. In percentage terms then you might be talking about one percent who might have moral qualms about this.

However don't forget Robb by marrying Jeyne has also insulted all of those Frey knights by breaking his word to their lord. The promised marriaged enhanced their status because their lord was going up in the world and being taken more seriously for change. Robb's marriage is a slap in their face too - their lord's daughter, the daughter of the man they have sworn themselves too, isn't good enough for la-di-da fancy pants Wolf-boy - what does that say about them?

Finally I don't think the frey knights want to be left on the loosing side either and after the battle of the Blackwater it is clear how things are going to work out.

We are shown the face of knighthood in the series and it isn't pretty. Don't think there is any surprise here.

In Westeros, your liege lord's enemies are your enemies.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

No one is honorable in these books save the Starks, and I'll throw Tyrion in there too, Brienne as well, oh and Davos. Who am I missing?

[blood of the dragoon]

Well....I know lots of you are quick to jump to the bad examples. There is no denying that we have a laundry list to choose from. But, we also have dozens of examples of knights who take their vows and honor seriously. Brienne, Duncan the Tall, The Kingsguard at the ToJ, the knight in the Vale that did not want to fight Tyrion because he was a dwarf. And that is just to name a few. The books establish that there were at least 1000 knights in Lord Frey's service. So even if we overestimate that 80% of knights are more like Gregor Clegane and less like Brienne then we still have to account for up to 200 true knights, don't we?

And.....I did not start this post thinking that all of Lord Frey's knights are good guys. I simply wanted to point out that Lord Frey somehow managed to get many many people to do something that they are supposed to be against in general. And he seemed to do it with ease and precision. Maybe too much ease and precision to be believable.

I respectfully disagree with your take on knights.

We don't have a frey pov, so were don't know how easy or hard it was for ol' Walder.

[Corvo Attano]

No one is honorable in these books save the Starks, and I'll throw Tyrion in there too, Brienne as well, oh and Davos. Who am I missing?

Tyrion honourable? That's he funniest joke ive ever heard.

[SeanF]

No one is honorable in these books save the Starks, and I'll throw Tyrion in there too, Brienne as well, oh and Davos. Who am I missing?

It depends what you mean by honourable. Men who were sworn to Walder Frey would consider it honourable to obey his orders.

[Eir]

I respectfully disagree with your take on knights.

We don't have a frey pov, so were don't know how easy or hard it was for ol' Walder.

Precisely this, though we can probably predict how the average knight arrived at his decision to fight. I don't think it's as complicated as we'd like it to be. The average knight isn't concerned with lofty thoughts of honour or the righteousness of his leige lord's cause, and he's not spending hours analysing whether or not he marches into battle. He's looking for a warm hearth and a nice woman. If living under the Freys offers him that and has all his life, why would he go against the status quo? The call to arms comes and he answers it.

To borrow an example from real life, how many coalition force soldiers or commanders refused to go to Afghanistan or Iraq on moral grounds? A scant few: it's not done. The thought process is relatively simple for the vast majority: you're a knight in service to a liege lord and you go where he tells you to go. If any second thoughts do occur, they're squashed by fears of losing your livelihood, or peer pressure as someone mentioned upthread.

[Kroepian]

After WW2 many soldiers who commited the most terrible crimes against prisoners and civilians said they were just obeying orders. People tend to ignore their own responsibility if superiors will take the blame.

maybe the Freys told their soldiers, that the starks were plotting against them and they would just be striking first

[blood of the dragoon]

After WW2 many soldiers who commited the most terrible crimes against prisoners and civilians said they were just obeying orders. People tend to ignore their own responsibility if superiors will take the blame.

maybe the Freys told their soldiers, that the starks were plotting against them and they would just be striking first

Yes. Some things need to be said with certain accents. Howdy partner is American. Chaos is a ladder us English. I was simply following orders is German.

Point of interest, that defense did not stand up in nuremburg.

[Cas Stark]

As far as guest right, that wouldn't apply to Bolton or his men. I do agree, you would think that some few Frey people..workers, soldiers, etc. would have balked at such a transgression since according to Bran's story everyone who is part of the household is also bound by guest right, not just the official host or host family.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes. Some things need to be said with certain accents. Howdy partner is American. Chaos is a ladder us English. I was simply following orders is German.

Point of interest, that defense did not stand up in nuremburg.

Could you please stop attributing certain vices to real people? It isn't funny.

By the way, the whole "orders" thing applies to every army.

[daario's man]

Just as the Hound..

[SeanF]

Could you please stop attributing certain vices to real people? It isn't funny.

By the way, the whole "orders" thing applies to every army.

Quite true. In virtually every circumstance, i'd obey orders.

[PJsnaks]

Yes. Some things need to be said with certain accents. Howdy partner is American. Chaos is a ladder us English. I was simply following orders is German.

Point of interest, that defense did not stand up in nuremburg.

I laughed

[TargaryenFanatic]

Knights: men who say some words, swing a bright shining sword, wear nice armor, and are suddenly saints.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Ryman Frey was a knight, and he did the individual worst thing at the Red Wedding (axing Dacey Mormont :crying: ), and as everyone else is saying, knights are humans, not mindless chivalry robots.

thanks for reminding me. :crying:

[blood of the dragoon]

Could you please stop attributing certain vices to real people? It isn't funny.

By the way, the whole "orders" thing applies to every army.

Funny is subjective. I should have added that today Germany is very into human rights, so i don't hold anything against people born too late to do anything.

And yes, we could swing it back my way and talk about abu ghraib and Guantanamo.

[The Pain Yak]

'Just following orders' or not, guest right seems such a huge deal in Westeros that I have to imagine a lot of the soldiers being asked to participate (not just knights) were uneasy or flat-out terrified of what they were doing. The gods curse those who break guest right, and while Walder Frey may sneer at divine retribution, I'm guessing a very large number of his men are superstitious and/or religious enough to be very much afraid of the consequences of what they've done.