Littlefinger's arc in Winds of Winter: westword bound!

[KingHodorTargaryen]

NO it wouldn't, if they are both working together. It's perfect. Vary's works in the south, on the Dornish, StormLands, and Reach. While Littlefinger is secretly working the Vale and the Tridenet. He is the Lord Parmount. That's 2/3 of the kingdom right there. If Vary's is working with Tyrell, and has cleared the way by leaving Tommen with no senior leadership. They don't want Cersi back in charge. They don't want Cersi anywhere near the Throne. Cersi is done. If Tyrell is smart he will, have Tommen sign a doc that states that Mace is the Regent and hand, with Tommen's wife being his co-ruler. Tommen signs anything put in front of him. Then if they have another doc, stripping Jamie from the kingsguard, bannishing him to the wall and names Loras to the LC post. Sends the remaining Lannister household guards and a token Tyrell force to find Jamie and bring him north. That is taking everything away from the lannisters and all they can do is watch. They don't have the strengh to oppose Tyrell all of Lannister strengh is in the Trident and with winter coming on those western lords will want to go home and sit tight though winter. So who is there to help Cersi rule or oppose the fat flower? Nobody they have 40,000 strong in the capital right now.

I'm sorry, there is no way they are working together. Varys wants Aegon on the throne with Dany as his queen. That is his end goal. Littlefinger wants Sansa close to the throne or queen. Their plans may both consist of screwing over the Lannisters, but that hardly means that they have the same goal.

[The Reader Lisa]

While it's true Robert and especially Cersei both spend like there's no tomorrow, I've always thought the

realm's financial foes were engineered by Littlefinger to conceal massive embezzlement on his part. We know

he's cosy with the Iron Bank and that's where he's stashed his loot - the Westeros equivalent of a Swiss bank

account. Remember Tyrion, who's a very clever fellow, had great difficulty following all of Littlefinger's financial

machinations when he succeeded him as Master of Coin. Many of Littlefinger's "investments" were highly

speculative and there's no better way to hide embezzlement than a bad investment....especially if you never

really invested in it in the first place.

As for Littlefinger's master plan or motive.....I'm not sure he has one. Of all the characters in ASOIAF I

think he is the biggest sociopath. I think he's like Loki....a trickster. He fucks people over because he can and

he throughly enjoys the process. He thrives on chaos and seems to be able to turn on a dime to exploit any

given situation. But end up ruling Westeros? A Westeros he has helped ruined? He's not a builder but a

destroyer. And when it all hits the fan, I think he'll laugh.....then leave through one of several rat runs he has

set up. Heading for Braavos to spend his ill gotten gains.

And his obsession with Cat? PUHLEASE! He plays the Cat card to emotionally manipulate Sansa but has he

ever expressed any remorse at her fate? Anything good he ever felt for her ended when she sided with

Brandon that day. He enjoyed destroying Ned not to win her back but to hurt her, punish her. When he said

that Cat was the only woman he ever loved to Lysa right before he pushed her out the Moon Door, it was

because it was the most hateful thing he could say to Lysa at that moment. He said it to punish Lysa....not

honor Cat's memory. Littlefinger loves Littlefinger. And he'd like to see everyone else get their comeuppance.

Hence the chaos he engenders. But some master plan? That's just the pubescent little boy that's at the

heart of Littlefinger's character talking big to impress Sansa...who he will sell out at the first hint of danger.

[RedChick]

^^ I can't see Littlefinger selling out Sansa. She's too much of a valuable card for him.

I also don't think he's completely over Cat either, although I do agree with you that he wanted to destroy her life as revenge for her rejection of him. But I also think that he simply transferred his obsession for Catelyn to Sansa, who he sees as a younger version of Cat. Cersei later mentions that LF wanted to marry Sansa when he found about Sansa's betrothal to Willas; which resulted in the Lannisters arranging the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa.

At this point, I think he's trying to manipulate Sansa into being dependent on him, he wants to create a relationship with Sansa that he never got a chance to create with Catelyn. All in all, I do believe that Sansa is his weak spot and that it'd lead to his downfall in one way or another.

[honeyed chicken]

As for Littlefinger's master plan or motive.....I'm not sure he has one. Of all the characters in ASOIAF I

think he is the biggest sociopath. I think he's like Loki....a trickster. He fucks people over because he can and

he throughly enjoys the process. He thrives on chaos and seems to be able to turn on a dime to exploit any

given situation. But end up ruling Westeros? A Westeros he has helped ruined? He's not a builder but a

destroyer. And when it all hits the fan, I think he'll laugh.....then leave through one of several rat runs he has

set up. Heading for Braavos to spend his ill gotten gains.

I won't pretend that I can prove anything, but I feel that you are wrong.

There are a number of reasons I feel that way:

- a sociopath kills and hurts for the pleasure of doing so. LF picks his victims far more strategically. Why does he work so hard to take Tyrion out? He is very methodical, and when his first attempt fails he tries again at the purplle wedding and succeeds.

- he keeps the boy Sweet Robin alive, even though the kid is a huge pain in the butt. He has a very careful plan to take control of the Vale and young Robert is an important symbol to the lords bannermen of the Arryns.

- he shows all the signs of great ambition. Remember the scene in ACOK where Tyrion (Tyrion 4, pp 261 - 278) offers him Harrenhal for his part in wooing Lysa? And later when it turns out that was a ruse, he stomps off in one of his few displays of an emotion other than sneering contempt.

- in the same scene where Tyrion offers Harrenhal there's a nice explanation of how LF rose to power and the vast network of people he's created, all of whom owe him their jobs.

He's pretty well placed to do something really ambitious given the potential wealth represented by Harrenhal's lands and the Vale with its 20-40,000 men depending on whom you believe.

With the Starks and Lannister houses in tatters and Highgarden with Ironborn on their doorstep, who else will hold power in the center of Westeros?

He's got no answer for dragons should it come to that, but for everything else, I think LF has a plan.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I won't pretend that I can prove anything, but I feel that you are wrong.

There are a number of reasons I feel that way:

- a sociopath kills and hurts for the pleasure of doing so. LF picks his victims far more strategically. Why does he work so hard to take Tyrion out? He is very methodical, and when his first attempt fails he tries again at the purplle wedding and succeeds.

- he keeps the boy Sweet Robin alive, even though the kid is a huge pain in the butt. He has a very careful plan to take control of the Vale and young Robert is an important symbol to the lords bannermen of the Arryns.

- he shows all the signs of great ambition. Remember the scene in ACOK where Tyrion (Tyrion 4, pp 261 - 278) offers him Harrenhal for his part in wooing Lysa? And later when it turns out that was a ruse, he stomps off in one of his few displays of an emotion other than sneering contempt.

- in the same scene where Tyrion offers Harrenhal there's a nice explanation of how LF rose to power and the vast network of people he's created, all of whom owe him their jobs.

He's pretty well placed to do something really ambitious given the potential wealth represented by Harrenhal's lands and the Vale with its 20-40,000 men depending on whom you believe.

With the Starks and Lannister houses in tatters and Highgarden with Ironborn on their doorstep, who else will hold power in the center of Westeros?

He's got no answer for dragons should it come to that, but for everything else, I think LF has a plan.

:agree: Though I do think Sweet Robin is only being kept alive so LF has time to marry Sansa to Harrold, which is where Sansa will become more independent and throw a wrench in his plans.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

:agree: Though I do think Sweet Robin is only being kept alive so LF has time to marry Sansa to Harrold, which is where Sansa will become more independent and throw a wrench in his plans.

That doesn't quite make sense. The faster Robin dies, the faster LF can implement his plans. Its more likely that LF needs time to put himself above suspicion for Sweet Robin's death. If its done too quickly it will arouse suspicion, especially since Lysa's death was not that far off.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

That doesn't quite make sense. The faster Robin dies, the faster LF can implement his plans. Its more likely that LF needs time to put himself above suspicion for Sweet Robin's death. If its done too quickly it will arouse suspicion, especially since Lysa's death was not that far off.

If Sweet Robin dies, then Harrold will be swamped with offers for marriage. He needs time to get a betrothal for Sansa to Harrold before Sweet Robin kicks the bucket.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If Sweet Robin dies, then Harrold will be swamped with offers for marriage. He needs time to get a betrothal for Sansa to Harrold before Sweet Robin kicks the bucket.

No other offers can match Sansa's pedigree and beauty. The arrangements have already been made between LF and Lady Waynwood. Sansa just needs to attract Harry enough for marriage, without giving him her maidenhead.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

No other offers can match Sansa's pedigree and beauty. The arrangements have already been made between LF and Lady Waynwood. Sansa just needs to attract Harry enough for marriage, without giving him her maidenhead.

For Sansa, yes. But she is known as Alayne, and it wouldn't be as beneficial for Sweet Robin to die yet. There isn't much more harm in keeping him alive a bit longer.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

For Sansa, yes. But she is known as Alayne, and it wouldn't be as beneficial for Sweet Robin to die yet. There isn't much more harm in keeping him alive a bit longer.

Harry is of no use until he has taken over House Arryn. If the marriage is completed and then Sweet Robin dies, Bronze Yohn may rebel. LF just needs to remove any suspicion that he assassinated Sweet Robin.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Harry is of no use until he has taken over House Arryn. If the marriage is completed and then Sweet Robin dies, Bronze Yohn may rebel. LF just needs to remove any suspicion that he assassinated Sweet Robin.

Harry is of no use until then, but the potential is great. It all depends on which causes the most gains while giving off the least amount of suspicion: kill Sweet Robin now about a month after Lysa's death, or kill him when everything is set up with Sansa, and let the dominoes fall, with enough time between Lysa's death and Sweet Robin's to disarm too much suspicion. Though I do believe Sweet Robin will live thanks to help from Sansa when she openly defies Littlefinger.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Harry is of no use until then, but the potential is great. It all depends on which causes the most gains while giving off the least amount of suspicion: kill Sweet Robin now about a month after Lysa's death, or kill him when everything is set up with Sansa, and let the dominoes fall, with enough time between Lysa's death and Sweet Robin's to disarm too much suspicion. Though I do believe Sweet Robin will live thanks to help from Sansa when she openly defies Littlefinger.

I agree on Sweet Robin surviving and being one of the surprises of the book. Sansa will marry and mold Sweet Robin to her satisfaction, as part of her coming of age and grabbing power. Can't wait to see LF's shock.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I agree on Sweet Robin surviving and being one of the surprises of the book. Sansa will marry and mold Sweet Robin to her satisfaction, as part of her coming of age and grabbing power. Can't wait to see LF's shock.

That would be nice, but I don't know about marriage. I either see Sansa staying married to Tyrion or annuling it and staying single. I can't see her being in a marriage where it actually works really well, she lost all notion of that when Joffrey killed Ned.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

That would be nice, but I don't know about marriage. I either see Sansa staying married to Tyrion or annuling it and staying single. I can't see her being in a marriage where it actually works really well, she lost all notion of that when Joffrey killed Ned.

I don't see her as being that broken. What Sansa does not want is the powerlessness that she felt being betrothed to mad tyrant and then married to a deformed dwarf.

The idea of marriage was never lost on her. She would have happily wed Willas if LF had not spilled the beans to Tywin. She will mold Sweet Robin into the type of husband that she wants and can control. Sansa's future is now tied to the Vale.

[brashcandy]

I don't see her as being that broken. What Sansa does not want is the powerlessness that she felt being betrothed to mad tyrant and then married to a deformed dwarf.

The idea of marriage was never lost on her. She would have happily wed Willas if LF had not spilled the beans to Tywin. She will mold Sweet Robin into the type of husband that she wants and can control. Sansa's future is now tied to the Vale.

If it's possible, she found the thought of marriage to Sweetrobin to be even more unpalatable than the one she endured with Tyrion, and her relationship with the former has more relevance as a mother/child dynamic. I think Sansa's fortunes (in terms of gaining support and a potential power base) are certainly tied to the Vale for now, but that doesn't necessarily give any indication of what's to play out in her future prospects.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If it's possible, she found the thought of marriage to Sweetrobin to be even more unpalatable than the one she endured with Tyrion, and her relationship with the former has more relevance as a mother/child dynamic. I think Sansa's fortunes (in terms of gaining support and a potential power base) are certainly tied to the Vale for now, but that doesn't necessarily give any indication of what's to play out in her future prospects.

She has a chance to mold Sweet Robin into the type of husband that she has always wanted. Bronze Yohn would foster him and let Strong Sam Stone train him in arms. The strong male influence will erase all of the damage that Lysa has inflicted upon the poor lad. Sansa will be there whispering sweet words of encouragement and ensuring that he loves her completely.

Its a near perfect scenario.

[juanml82]

She has a chance to mold Sweet Robin into the type of husband that she has always wanted. Bronze Yohn would foster him and let Strong Sam Stone train him in arms. The strong male influence will erase all of the damage that Lysa has inflicted upon the poor lad. Sansa will be there whispering sweet words of encouragement and ensuring that he loves her completely.

Its a near perfect scenario.

As long as Sansa gets to keep some hardened warrior as a paramour. I don't think she would ever be sexually attracted to Robert Arryn - the boy piss on her bed and they are developing a somewhat sick mother-child relationship.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

As long as Sansa gets to keep some hardened warrior as a paramour. I don't think she would ever be sexually attracted to Robert Arryn - the boy piss on her bed and they are developing a somewhat sick mother-child relationship.

I think three or fours years will do wonders for Sweet Robin. A father figure and a great warrior to teach him arms will help him grow exponentially.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I think three or fours years will do wonders for Sweet Robin. A father figure and a great warrior to teach him arms will help him grow exponentially.

All depends on whether he can not only survive, but grow strong despite his disorder.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

All depends on whether he can not only survive, but grow strong despite his disorder.

True, but being cooped up in the Eyrie by Lysa and then LF only worsens his condition. Fresh air and physical activity can strengthen him and lessen his conditon.