The Most Compelling Reason That Aegon Is Really Aegon

[Little Member]

This leads me to my theory. GRRM saw too many people figured out Jon was Aegon. His audience was coming to the end too quickly. Soon, they'd be screaming when will Jon finally learn he is Aegon and assume the Iron Throne already? So, as not to feel pressured to end his story too early, GRRM had to create a red herring to throw readers off and buy some time. He was in a rush and didn't thoroughly think it through, or he'd have used someone other than illyrio to have raised fAegon. The proof that Jon is Aegon is in Dany's vision in the HofU. Rhaegar had named his children after Aegon I and his two sisters. Elia had two children. He needed a third to complete the set. The drangon must have three heads. Since the third child was a boy, we can assume the first two were not. Another reason we can assume Elia did not have a son is that royal succession passes along the male line. This is very important. For if a queen inherits the throne, then marries, the name of her offspring would be that of the father. If she whelps without a husband, they'd be bastards and illegitimate kings. So, no sons means the family name dies out. So, Aerys was mad and wanted Elia to bear his boy a son or he'd kill her. Rhaegar, not wanting to lose Elia had to try and find another woman to bear him a son and pass it off as Elia's. Hence, the prince that was promised. Rhaegar wanted the child to have the best genes possible, so no ordinary woman would do. She had to be highborn and beautiful. When the baby was born, Rhaegar raced it to Aerys to show his father to appease him. He then brought him to Elia. This is when he tells her that his song is a song of ice and fire. Ice - for his Stark blood and Fire - for his Targ blood. He then brought the baby back to his mother for one final goodbye. When he arrived at the Tower of Joy, Ned was there. Rhaegar knew if Ned was there, Robert's army must be on the verge of winning the war. He knew his child wouldn't be safe if Robert usurped the throne. Him and Lyanna made Ned promise to take the child and keep him safe. So, Dany puzzled over where Visenya was. Visenya died with her sister at the hands of the Mountain. Like Kevan revealed in the epilogue of ADwD noone dared look too close at the child to be sure if it was a boy that died.

[Game Of Thrones]

@LM

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

[rondo has three heads]

This leads me to my theory. GRRM saw too many people figured out Jon was Aegon. His audience was coming to the end too quickly. Soon, they'd be screaming when will Jon finally learn he is Aegon and assume the Iron Throne already? So, as not to feel pressured to end his story too early, GRRM had to create a red herring to throw readers off and buy some time. He was in a rush and didn't thoroughly think it through, or he'd have used someone other than illyrio to have raised fAegon. The proof that Jon is Aegon is in Dany's vision in the HofU. Rhaegar had named his children after Aegon I and his two sisters. Elia had two children. He needed a third to complete the set. The drangon must have three heads. Since the third child was a boy, we can assume the first two were not. Another reason we can assume Elia did not have a son is that royal succession passes along the male line. This is very important. For if a queen inherits the throne, then marries, the name of her offspring would be that of the father. If she whelps without a husband, they'd be bastards and illegitimate kings. So, no sons means the family name dies out. So, Aerys was mad and wanted Elia to bear his boy a son or he'd kill her. Rhaegar, not wanting to lose Elia had to try and find another woman to bear him a son and pass it off as Elia's. Hence, the prince that was promised. Rhaegar wanted the child to have the best genes possible, so no ordinary woman would do. She had to be highborn and beautiful. When the baby was born, Rhaegar raced it to Aerys to show his father to appease him. He then brought him to Elia. This is when he tells her that his song is a song of ice and fire. Ice - for his Stark blood and Fire - for his Targ blood. He then brought the baby back to his mother for one final goodbye. When he arrived at the Tower of Joy, Ned was there. Rhaegar knew if Ned was there, Robert's army must be on the verge of winning the war. He knew his child wouldn't be safe if Robert usurped the throne. Him and Lyanna made Ned promise to take the child and keep him safe. So, Dany puzzled over where Visenya was. Visenya died with her sister at the hands of the Mountain. Like Kevan revealed in the epilogue of ADwD noone dared look too close at the child to be sure if it was a boy that died.

Too many people? I've only heard a few crackpots to that end

[edd tollett:(]

Varys tells kevan fAegon is the real deal because it's a lie he's been living with for 16 odd years. That's what a good lier does, is come to believe the lie your self. He's has no reason to ever say the truth again because this is the truth now.

At least that's my take but that brings up another question. If varys and/or fAegon are blackfyres will they reveal them self at some point or will they be happy to rule as targs?

[The King in Black]

You should check out the ' why would Varys lie to a dying man ' thread. Same topic, similar discussions.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't think it matters whether or not one likes Aegon or the Blackfyres or whatever. As mentioned above, red or black a dragon is still a dragon. I also don't think it matters whether previous Blackfyre's were honorable or not considering there are Targs that were honorable and Targs that weren't. Just as there were Starks who were and Starks who weren't.

I don't think Varys lied. The Aegon we see was raised to be a king without being raised as a king. He didn't grow up in a castle with great wealth. We met him on a small boat with few luxuries. As far as we know, Varys has been in King's Landing for all of YG's life, so whatever he knows about YG has been passed down by someone else.

Still, this doesn't tell us YG's true identity and it doesn't tell us why someone(s) spent nearly a decade molding this child to take the throne in Westeros. Why does Illyrio care? Why did Illyrio feign aid to Dany and Viserys when he had a boy calling himself Aegon son of Rhaegar all this time? Why does Varys care? Why were Varys and Illyrio working together. There are too many unanswered questions when Aegon is just assumed to be son of Rhaegar.

I am in a minority on this forum who think that Aegon is most probably real. As to why would Illyrio and Varys help raise Viserys and Danereys, I think they have a dual purpose:

1) They want to keep all Targs close to them, because whoever controls them, controls the future of the Iron Throne (in their view).

2) By not letting Viserys and Daenerys know about Aegon, they are keeping Aegon safe. Viserys thought of himself as the true heir to the IT and bragged about it to whoever wanted to listen. So, no matter who overheard him and informed Robert Baratheon, the story would never change. Baby Aegon was killed by the Lannisters and Viserys the Poor thinks of himself as the next king of Westeros. That would keep Robert's eyes on Viserys and all eyes would be diverted from Aegon. If Viserys had known about Aegon, he might have told someone or he might have attempted to hurt the boy. We know Viserys was far from stable.

3) It is interesting that Illyrio married Daenarys off to khal Drogo when she was 13. That would mean Aegon was 14 approaching 15, which means he has become an adult in Westerosi terms. Therefore, the whole ruse with Viserys and Daenerys was no longer necessary. Aegon was trained for years to become a king, Viserys wasn't. Was there a better way of getting rid of them both without actually killing them then selling them to the Dothrakis? Illyrio and Varys probably counted on Viserys annoying khal Drogo enough to get killed at some point and we know Varys did nothing to stop Robert sending assasins after Daenarys. On the contrary, he organised the whole thing. But, by that time it was obvious Robert had no legitimate heirs and the time to move Aegon to Westeros was at hand.

4) However, the question remains why Illyrio gave three dragon eggs to Danereys? As we have seen later, even maester Aemon, the most learned of all Targs, was surprised that Dany managed to hatch those eggs. So, what were Illyrio and Varys playing at? Did they know something no one else did? As we know even dragon eggs are extremely valuable. Why waste that wealth on a lost cause?

ETA: I subscribe to a theory that Varys is actually the third son of Aegon V i.e. uncle of Mad King Aerys. I assume Varys is roughly the same age as Aerys, which can easily happen when one is a third child. That would explain why Aerys trusted Varys to be master of whispers at the time when he trusted no one at all. That would also explain his knowledge of the Red Keep secret passages that are only to be known by a Targ.

[edd tollett:(]

The whole marrying Danny to Drogo and give them dragon eggs thing always bothered me too. Where are fAegon ' s eggs? Everything varys and/or Illyrio do is very thought out and deliberate.

The only thing that makes sense to me is they had reason to believe that Danny might be able to hatch the eggs. But I have know idea way they would think that.

[Sansa's Bad Memory]

Maybe if Varys is a Blackfire he couldn't kill or have Viserys killed being he would be a Kinslayer/Kingslayer, damned in the eyes of gods and men. That's why they so easily let him go with the Dothraki. Then maybe they were hoping that Dany might walk into a funeral pyre trying to hatch the eggs (like she did). But we're hoping for an alternate ending to that?

By the way, I don't even know where I stand on any of this. It just seems that the kinship issue would be the no brainer on why Varys didn't just off Viserys.

[Sansa's Bad Memory]

Also, I just proof-read my above post. Don't hate me because I'm illiterate. ;)

[King of Winters]

Two things. Varys want alone, his little birds were there, and he wants to keep Aegon's identity a secret and keep up the illusion of him being a Targ. He may use his little birds to collect info, but he doesn't trust them.

And also Varys is good at word play, he lets Kevan assume and conclude that Varys is talking about Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. He doesn't have enough time to clarify his thought, and Varys doesn't clarify it for him.

[Salafi Stannis]

He never actually said "Aegon is the son of Rhaegar" or that he's the rightful king, but only that he is better suited to rule than Tommen.

[FaceGardener]

I really like the idea that Aegon is fake, but might end up being a really good king anyway, tossing it in the face of those who believe that one person is superior to another based on blood.

[Little Member]

Here's the most compelling reason Aegon is fAegon from the Theon sample chapter of the upcoming book:

When he is asked to hire the Golden company, Stannis says:

Spoiler

"Do not prate at me of history, ser. Daemon Blackfyre was a rebel and usurper, Bittersteel a bastard. When he fled, he swore he would return to place a son of Daemon's upon the Iron Throne. He never did. Words are wind, and the wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea seldom blows them back."

Illyrio's second wife, Serra's family history is a mystery but she was said to have silvery gold hair. She could be a Blackfyre descendent and fAegon, her son. JonCon was surprised that the Golden Company already knew who young Grif really was. But it was Bittersteel's plan since leaving Westeros. A Blackfyre heir on the Iron Throne was the cause of the Golden Company since its' inception.

[Little Member]

If we accept as true what was stated earlier in this thread, that Varys always speaks the truth, though hidden amongst ambiguities and ommissions, then we must believe that he is loyal to the realm and the realm only. The question then becomes, what is the realm? I think once that is figured out (proabably not until the very end of the series) then we will know all there is to know about the character of Varys.

The Realm are the people that live in it. That is what Varys means. He wants to do what is best for the people. Stopping petty wars that have been pretty commonplace since the first Blackfyre rebellion, is his main concern. And he views the cause of these petty wars is a lack of good leadership. He believes that a leader that is always mindful of the needs of his people would not allow selfish desires to cloud his judgement. It's hard to encourage people to revolt against a wise and and noble king.

[Universal Sword Donor]

This leads me to my theory. GRRM saw too many people figured out Jon was Aegon. His audience was coming to the end too quickly. Soon, they'd be screaming when will Jon finally learn he is Aegon and assume the Iron Throne already? So, as not to feel pressured to end his story too early, GRRM had to create a red herring to throw readers off and buy some time. He was in a rush and didn't thoroughly think it through, or he'd have used someone other than illyrio to have raised fAegon. The proof that Jon is Aegon is in Dany's vision in the HofU. Rhaegar had named his children after Aegon I and his two sisters. Elia had two children. He needed a third to complete the set. The drangon must have three heads. Since the third child was a boy, we can assume the first two were not. Another reason we can assume Elia did not have a son is that royal succession passes along the male line. This is very important. For if a queen inherits the throne, then marries, the name of her offspring would be that of the father. If she whelps without a husband, they'd be bastards and illegitimate kings. So, no sons means the family name dies out. So, Aerys was mad and wanted Elia to bear his boy a son or he'd kill her. Rhaegar, not wanting to lose Elia had to try and find another woman to bear him a son and pass it off as Elia's. Hence, the prince that was promised. Rhaegar wanted the child to have the best genes possible, so no ordinary woman would do. She had to be highborn and beautiful. When the baby was born, Rhaegar raced it to Aerys to show his father to appease him. He then brought him to Elia. This is when he tells her that his song is a song of ice and fire. Ice - for his Stark blood and Fire - for his Targ blood. He then brought the baby back to his mother for one final goodbye. When he arrived at the Tower of Joy, Ned was there. Rhaegar knew if Ned was there, Robert's army must be on the verge of winning the war. He knew his child wouldn't be safe if Robert usurped the throne. Him and Lyanna made Ned promise to take the child and keep him safe. So, Dany puzzled over where Visenya was. Visenya died with her sister at the hands of the Mountain. Like Kevan revealed in the epilogue of ADwD noone dared look too close at the child to be sure if it was a boy that died.

This post has enough big enough holes in it that the Freys are starting to build a bridge to charge tolls.

[SerCas]

Varys is a master at half-truths and lies by omission. Usually his words have drops of truth, and in situations where he must be completely honest or a complete liar, he often just omits information or feigns not knowing something. This is how he is able to make so many people trust him even when they believe he's not trustworthy.

Varys called him Aegon, which is by all accounts his name. He didn't specify which Aegon though, or that he's even the Aegon Kevan was referring to.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Dance of the Dragons 2.0. Stephen and Matilda .

[Little Member]

Here's the problem, if Aegon is fAegon, is JonCon aware of the deception or is he a pawn as well?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Here's the problem, if Aegon is fAegon, is JonCon aware of the deception or is he a pawn as well?

If only we had POVs to look through.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Here's the problem, if Aegon is fAegon, is JonCon aware of the deception or is he a pawn as well?

Connington clearly thinks Aegon is Aegon. However, he was also in love with Rhaegar and is desperate to correct the wrong he feels he committed, i.e. losing to Robert. He's in denial. That's what makes him the perfect stooge.